Second midfielder

[mazarini]

When Jimmy Forrest won his fourth and fifth FA Cup medals in 1890 and 1891 there was only one other player left from the teams that won the cup in the 1880's.

To remain in the side for that long despite the overhaul that happened in almost every other position in the team gives us as clear an indication as possible that he was a great player and indispensible to the team.

Sherwood was a good player. I rated him highly but for Tim to be comparable he would have still been playing for us when we lifted the League Cup in 2002. Instead Mark Hughes made him look soft.

[LeChuck]

It's a shame Duff won't get in because of Dave Wagstaffe or Mike Harrison.

Both were better than him.

Just another reason why people will vote Sherwood...how can they take your Forrest v Sherwood claims seriously now?

Why so ?

I'll wager you've never heard of Wagstaffe or Harrison, let alone see them play.

I've heard of both but, no, I've never seen them play. Were they considered one of (if not the outright) best left wingers in the World during their time at Rovers though? Did they go to World Cups and still look an absolute class act?

I guess it all depends on your definition of 'great'. Greatest player? Greatest contribution to the club? Don't suppose there's any right or wrong in that one, it's down to personal choice...however you did claim "Both were better than him" (Duff)....hhhmmmmmmm....

Edited November 17, 2004 by LeChuck

[jim mk2]

I've heard of both but, no, I've never seen them play.

Which puts me at a considerable advantage, because I have seen them play.

In my opinion, they were better footballers than Duff.

[American]

Funny how you seem to be the only one of the old timers with that opinion.

[Blue blood]

Garry Flitcroft.

Looking at the list Flitty deserves a shot at being one of Rovers greats having done just as much if not more for the club then most of the candidates.

He's played over 230 games for the club.

He's been with us for eight seasons - a heck of a long time in modern day football.

He's captained and led Rovers during our most successful period since winning the Premiership.

Having a midfield grafter is not the most glamerous role in football but is pretty neccessary for a successful team. Look at all the top successful teams and they all include a midfield battler. The importance of the role is not to be underestimnated. Would Manure have been so dominant in the 90's without Keane in the middle? For all their attacking flair the defensive qualities of Makelele was an integral part of Real's success. Simmilarly Flitty has been doing the job of disrupting the opposition and protecting our defence for years. It is hard to stress how important it is to have someone to disrupt the opposition's game and that is what Flitty does best. Never one to shirk a tackle, never one to give a player an easy ride, the manager could always depend on Flitty to do his job and get stuck in.

His commitment is outstanding. Whilst no Pele Flitty always gives 110% and always seems to care about the result and Blackburn Rovers. As a captain Flitty always led by example, captaincy seemingly coming naturally. For years as a captain and a midfield general Flitty would have been one of the first names on the team sheet.

There's also a lot more to Flitcroft's game then first appears. Whilst primarily a midfield battler he has over the years adapted his game to suit the needs of the team. During the promotion season Flitty played a defensive midfield role allowing Rovers to reap the beneifts of Dunn's attacking play. Similarly I've seen Flitty play as a winger/wide midfielder on several ocassions and again seen 110% commitment and the desire to put in the best performance possible. There's none of this pre-madonna winging about being played out of position that is heard so often from Premiership stars.

Flitty also knows where the goal is and has a few important goals to his name. Whilst not the most impressive scoring ratio the vast majority of the goals have been crucial for Rovers. When Rovers have seemed to need that bit extra in attack Flitcroft has stepped up on several occassions. One game which illustrates this to me was the Leeds home game the second season back in the permiership. Playing with Egil up front on his own with a 5 man midfield it was Flitty who provided that extra support up front and ultimately got the winning goal. And whilst no Pele nor is Flitty a talentless donkey. A good example of this was the overhead kick that kept the ball in play for Perez's only goal for Rovers.

Flitcroft's achievements during his time at Rovers is quite impressive. He's played an integral part of two European qualifications via 6th place, won promotion and a league cup with the team and was a vital part of the defensive midfield that helped save Rovers bacon last season. In addition Flitcroft captained the side well and led by example for four years.

Ok so now Flitty is sadly past it, but just because he's now past his peak doesn't mean we should forget the valuable contribution he has made to Blackburn over the years. Flitcroft was a dependable player who always gives 110% and always fulfilled his role in the team despite the lack of recognition that his consistancy deserved. Rovers fans cannot ask for more from a player.

[Cheshireblue]

Batty was not a good ball player, he was a midfield enforcer. He only passed sideways and backwards because that was his job. For my money, Batty in his hey day was one of the best midfield bully boys around. He did his job perfectly, freeing up his midfield partner to be the creative genius.

However, his misdeld partner was Sherwood. Given that he was paired with such a prolific defensive midfielder, you would have expected Shewood to blossom, to shine, to weigh in with a huge pile of goals given that Ripley, Wilcox and Batty were never going to trouble to golden boot awards committee.

I don't know what Sherwoods stats look like, but I certainly do not recall him banging in a hat full of goals during his time at Rovers. For the central attacking midfielder in the best team in the country, he should have done a lot more. He just cannot be called a "great" player.

You'll be calling David May a great player next.

[Robertson]

Here you go Cheshireblue

Tim Sherwood

91-92 Blackburn Rovers 11 Games (-)

92-93 Blackburn Rovers 3 Goals, 39 Games (-)

93-94 Blackburn Rovers 2 Goals, 38 Games (-)

94-95 Blackburn Rovers 6 Goals, 38 Games (-)

95-96 Blackburn Rovers 3 Goals, 33 Games (-)

96-97 Blackburn Rovers 3 Goals, 37 Games (-)

97-98 Blackburn Rovers 5 Goals, 31 Games (-)

98-99(jan) Blackburn Rovers 3 Goals, 19 Games (-)

These are the stats for the league anyway.

[den]

Blimey 52 each! Couldn't split 'em with an atomic ioniser.

[booth]

Batty was not a good ball player, he was a midfield enforcer. He only passed sideways and backwards because that was his job. For my money, Batty in his hey day was one of the best midfield bully boys around. He did his job perfectly, freeing up his midfield partner to be the creative genius.

However, his misdeld partner was Sherwood. Given that he was paired with such a prolific defensive midfielder, you would have expected Shewood to blossom, to shine, to weigh in with a huge pile of goals given that Ripley, Wilcox and Batty were never going to trouble to golden boot awards committee.

I don't know what Sherwoods stats look like, but I certainly do not recall him banging in a hat full of goals during his time at Rovers. For the central attacking midfielder in the best team in the country, he should have done a lot more. He just cannot be called a "great" player. He was a decent player on his day, but never a great.

You'll be calling David May a great player next.

I also thought that Batty was a much better player than Sherwood and I wish we had someone like him now. Someone who could really bully the opposition midfield, but do it with some intelligence so not to get sent off every match.

I can't believe Sherwood is almost the top midfielder too. Is this the same Sherwood who 'gestured' to a berating Blackburn end? Is this not the same player who started a revolt in the changing rooms? Is this the guy who strolled across the pitch in his suit, coming in through the Walkersteel stand turnstyles while the rest of the team were training? I think I remember Dalglish (may have been Harford) once saying that the thing with Sherwood is that everyone remembers every bad pass in a match, and never the really good ones. And I think that sums him up because some matches there weren't any really good passes to witness. He could play brilliantly some days, and some day he couldn't pass a ball to someone a couple of metres away.

It's the same with Atkins (though Sherwood was much better than Super Atko). Good servant though he was, he was never a great player. And the Super Atko tag was always in-jest wherever I was standing/sitting. And believe me I got around that ground when Atkins was playing - Blackburn End, Blackburn End Enclosure, Darwen End, Walkersteel. Not once did anyone shout super Atko for a bit of skill - more they did it when he passed it to a member of the opposition and people were taking the p***. The thing about Atkins was that most of the time he gave 100% - but that doesn't make him great.

But it's an interesting debate chaps

Edited November 17, 2004 by booth

[Ninjathunder]

Blimey 52 each! Couldn't split 'em with an atomic ioniser.

Just voted and didn't see the scores on the doors before I did either, which makes it even more interesting that Jimmy Forrest is now in the lead!

[jim mk2]

[

I can't believe Sherwood is almost the top midfielder too. ...

Very good, and I'm in complete agreement, but the numbskulls don't want to listen. In their eyes, because he was captain of the 1995 Championship side makes him a "great" player. Which is utter tosh of course.

I've been watching Rovers on and off since the year dot and the only member of that 1995 side who should be guaranteed a place in the "greats" team is Shearer. Even then I would put a strong case for Fred Pickering.

[Claytons Left Boot]

Very good, and I'm in complete agreement, but the numbskulls don't want to listen. In their eyes, because he was captain of the 1995 Championship side makes him a "great" player. Which is utter tosh of course.

I've been watching Rovers on and off since the year dot and the only member of that 1995 side who should be guaranteed a place in the "greats" team is Shearer. Even then I would put a strong case for Fred Pickering.

Everyone with a differing opinion to you Jim is a numbskull. Views not on a par with yours are dismissed as tosh. And so on, and so on, and so on..............

I've been going to watch Rovers since blah, blah, blah.............I've seen this player, I've seen that, blah, blah, blah............blah, blah, effing blah...........you haven't but I have, blah, blah, blah............

I very rarely post these days because of people like you who turn debate into a slanging match. Folk young and old are entitled to their opinions without the need for your pontifications.

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but try taking a step back and listen to others without the perpetual need for criticising.

[92er]

If only we could stop the vote now.

[Brownie]

[

I can't believe Sherwood is almost the top midfielder too. ...

Very good, and I'm in complete agreement, but the numbskulls don't want to listen. In their eyes, because he was captain of the 1995 Championship side makes him a "great" player. Which is utter tosh of course.

I've been watching Rovers on and off since the year dot and the only member of that 1995 side who should be guaranteed a place in the "greats" team is Shearer. Even then I would put a strong case for Fred Pickering.

Numbskulls is a little uncalled for Jim.

How many of these 'greats' you have self labelled have won the ultimate English prize of the top league ?

Whilst playing in a championship winning side doesn't automatically mean you are a 'great', it certainly goes a hell of a long way towards a permanant place in the record books.

These postings are getting a little hysterical, but they don't surprise me.

You won't get Utd fans slagging off Steve Bruce or Roy Keane, Arsenal fans bemoaning the attributes of Viera.

We probably have the only group of fans who can win the bloody Premiership and spend the next ten years slagging off the captain for being an arrogant cockney !

(He wasn't very good at lifting that trophy was he ? Should have held over his head not to the side)... Vote Forrest !

[colin]

I do remember Batty scoring a screamer once as well, but it was very much out of character for him.

Mr Bryan,

I remember that one too.

The problems were

(i) He was wearing a Newcastle shirt at the time

(ii) It was at Ewood

(iii) Left foot

(iv) Outside the penalty box

Apart from that............

[bellamy11]

[

I can't believe Sherwood is almost the top midfielder too. ...

Very good, and I'm in complete agreement, but the numbskulls don't want to listen. In their eyes, because he was captain of the 1995 Championship side makes him a "great" player. Which is utter tosh of course.

I've been watching Rovers on and off since the year dot and the only member of that 1995 side who should be guaranteed a place in the "greats" team is Shearer. Even then I would put a strong case for Fred Pickering.

Numbskulls is a little uncalled for Jim.

How many of these 'greats' you have self labelled have won the ultimate English prize of the top league ?

Whilst playing in a championship winning side doesn't automatically mean you are a 'great', it certainly goes a hell of a long way towards a permanant place in the record books.

These postings are getting a little hysterical, but they don't surprise me.

You won't get Utd fans slagging off Steve Bruce or Roy Keane, Arsenal fans bemoaning the attributes of Viera.

We probably have the only group of fans who can win the bloody Premiership and spend the next ten years slagging off the captain for being an arrogant cockney !

(He wasn't very good at lifting that trophy was he ? Should have held over his head not to the side)... Vote Forrest !

Bruce, Keane and Viera haven't left their clubs in the way Sherwood did (granted that two of them haven't left at all yet). When Viera had the chance to go to Real Madrid he stayed loyal, unlike Sherwood.

Viera may well be the world's best holding midfielder. Keane was up there in his prime too. Sherwood was never the best in the league at the time, never mind the country or beyond.

Bruce probably wouldn't get into Man United's team of greats. I don't see how he has any relevance.

If Hendry had been captain of the Championship side then Sherwood wouldn't have half the votes that he has now. I think his status is getting him so far, not his ability.

[LeChuck]

Good idea there FLB.

It's a 2 horse race, if it's a photo finish with less than 12 votes between them, then have a 48 hour shoot out between the both of them.

If that happens please add Latheron to the list, he deserves to be here more than both Sherwood and Forrest. I know there will be increased support for him if it came to a three way vote, he has to be considered once again.

[FourLaneBlue]

Good idea there FLB.

It's a 2 horse race, if it's a photo finish with less than 12 votes between them, then have a 48 hour shoot out between the both of them.

If that happens please add Latheron to the list, he deserves to be here more than both Sherwood and Forrest. I know there will be increased support for him if it came to a three way vote, he has to be considered once again.

No, that is unfair on Atkins and Batty. Latheron has only received three more votes than Atkins and just five more than Batty. Either we have a five-way vote of all the players who have reached double figures in votes or (and to be honest this is the only sensible way to do it or we could here for months getting rid of one at a time) a straight shootout between Sherwood and Forrest who are now a good forty votes ahead of the others. As good as Latheron was, fifteen votes so far is not enough to keep him in. Not without the likes of Batty and Atkins just a few votes behind him.

[LeChuck]

Ok....put them in too, I just want to be able to change my vote to Latheron.

[FourLaneBlue]

Ideally one of them will pull out in front and we won't need a further vote of any kind.

Oh and just to say that Tris and Bob F did mention having a shootout before myself, just at the same time as each other. Great minds and all that...don't want to take that away from Tris as he seems very proud of it!

[MCMC1875]

POLLING IS NOW CLOSED.

(Den is off sick)

[Alan75]

Interesting to see that this poll and the TP sacking poll are neck and neck.

168 to 169 votes in each poll.

3000 odd votes still havent returned their voting slips yet.

So much for email voting. Civil Service please note

[SouthAussieRover]

Interesting to see that this poll and the TP sacking poll are neck and neck.

168 to 169 votes in each poll.

3000 odd votes still havent returned their voting slips yet.

So much for email voting. Civil Service please note

Because Alan, like CLB, SOME OF US OUR GROWING TIRED OF THE ATTITUDE of the likes of Jim et al.

[speeeeeeedie]

Catching up on this again. Some of Jim's comments border on the ridiculous. I'm in agreement with him on the "no way Sherwood" protest, but his constant harping back to the good old days wears me out. What put me over the top is his stance that Fred Pickering would give Shearer a run for his money.

Also Atkins has more votes than Batty. If you'd have told me 10 years ago that Mark Atkins would be ahead of David Batty in a greatest ever Rovers team vote, I'd have laughed them out of Ewood; so much for hindsight and nostalgia.

[den]

Also Atkins has more votes than Batty. If you'd have told me 10 years ago that Mark Atkins would be ahead of David Batty in a greatest ever Rovers team vote, I'd have laughed them out of Ewood; so much for hindsight and nostalgia.

I'm sure the Atkins supporters would point to the appearances that M.A made, as against the relatively few from Mr Batty. I would agree that Batty was a better footballer than Atkins, but were either of them fit to be called an all time rovers great?