Yorke And The Fans

[adopted scouser]

I've been going through the alphabet seeing what rhymed with Nick..I got as far as Pr...

Tashor style mind AS

eh ?

It's night time there isn't it Don ?

Have you been glugging night train with the Abbo's again ?

[SouthAussieRover]

Nah mate i thought i'd stop at Nick=Prick

[Scotty]

Can we get back to the racist bickering please and leave the funny stuff alone.

[American]

Since when has someone racially mocking someone else become an example of PC gone amok? Two COMPLETELY different issues. Going by what most people on here are saying, the English people's reactions to the events in Spain are just overreaction. Stop being so politically correct (OR STOP BEING SO FRICKING HYPOCRITICAL!!!!!!!!).

Oh, and as for the defense "I have Black friends." Guess what? I have racist friends, that doesn't mean that I like that part of them, just that I like them despite that.

[Paul]

If we close the topic to avoid the rows we are straight back to the censorship arguement,

That's right Paul mate, we'll get you one way or the other !

Now that's enough comedy - like Scotty said can we get back to bickering please.

[Roaming Rover]

My point is I don't want my kids and future generations to miss out on the things I got so much pleasure out of as a Child. Like Christmas.

Why do we need to ban things which no one finds offensive.

At last somebody else with their feet on the ground

Excellent RR and my feelings entirely.

Cheers Capt, at least someone can see where i'm coming from

MikeyLiu, I see your point, but you don't seem to see mine. I agree that ethnic minority person is guaranteed to face RACIAL discrimination more than a white person, does that make one worse than the other? IMO You seem to think it does...............................

Anyway, i can't really be bothered any more, i make the point that racism needs dealing with from both sides and I seem IMO to get branded a racist

Back to more important issues, like football

Edited November 26, 2004 by Roaming Rover

[baarree]

The situation with Christmas is a religious issue, most black people are christians while most asians in the north of England are islamic.

[ABBEY]

Maybe OnePost is trying to develop his/her own style ? Maybe "@#/?" is going to become as familair as Tashor's Fleurks, AESF's journalistic styled essays, Abbey's CAPS, Waggy's , Sox & Bob's satire, Scotty's sarcasm, Jim's pessasmism and my unqiue spelling/grammar/proofreading.

..... Then again, maybe not.

I DONT HAVE A CAP?

[blue phil]

The situation with Christmas is a religious issue, most black people are christians while most asians in the north of England are islamic.

Correct - and that's what most of the PC brigade don't seem to realise . Blacks (Christians ) have infinitely more in common with Whites (Christians) than they do with the Muslims , who are culturally and increasingly politically out on a limb of their own making .

So why does it always come down to bickering about "race" ? The answer to that , I'd suggest , is that for too long people have been brainwashed into believing it's all about race . Kids are bombarded with mis-information from day one of their lives from groups and organisations (CRE for eg ) who have either vested interests (it keeps them in jobs) , or they have naive political dogmatic ideals that ALL races and cultures are capable of living together . Tell that to the Palestinians and the Jews.

The end result ? We are told that we are all the same - but yet we are all different . We must all live together - but diverse communities are encouraged to flourish seperately (faith schools ?) . We are in the post Christian secular era - and yet we have to promote Islam at all costs so as not to "offend" the newcomers.

This leads me to a question Shaddy posed .

[joey_big_nose]

The situation with Christmas is a religious issue, most black people are christians while most asians in the north of England are islamic.

Correct - and that's what most of the PC brigade don't seem to realise . Blacks (Christians ) have infinitely more in common with Whites (Christians) than they do with the Muslims , who are culturally and increasingly politically out on a limb of their own making .

So why does it always come down to bickering about "race" ? The answer to that , I'd suggest , is that for too long people have been brainwashed into believing it's all about race . Kids are bombarded with mis-information from day one of their lives from groups and organisations (CRE for eg ) who have either vested interests (it keeps them in jobs) , or they have naive political dogmatic ideals that ALL races and cultures are capable of living together . Tell that to the Palestinians and the Jews.

The end result ? We are told that we are all the same - but yet we are all different . We must all live together - but diverse communities are encouraged to flourish seperately (faith schools ?) . We are in the post Christian secular era - and yet we have to promote Islam at all costs so as not to "offend" the newcomers.

This leads me to a question Shaddy posed .

Just so I can nail some thing down about your postion on this:

As long as everybody was culturally identical, or at least culturally compatible in your view, you would have no reason to kick them out? Skin colour/racial history is completely unimportant in your eyes?

Cheers.

Edited November 26, 2004 by joey_big_nose

[blue phil]

Maybe , as in Holland , there is the beginning of the realisation that the multi cultural experiment isn't working .

Says who?

This is a decent article about the recent outbreaks of violence in Holland , which illustrates that a multi culturalist state is NOT the same thing as a multi racial statebased on integration and a shared culture .

Unfortunately , there are many on this m/board who can't distinguish between the two concepts......

(The Daily Star in question is a Middle East paper , and not our own version ! )

Van Gogh's murder brings out Holland's contradictions

By Peter Speetjens

Special to The Daily Star

Saturday, November 20, 2004

The murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh by a young Muslim of Moroccan descent has shaken Holland to its very foundations. To most people, including the Dutch, the killing and its violent aftermath, in which several Mosques and Islamic schools were set ablaze, came as a shock. Holland is generally perceived as a tolerant and open society, firmly built upon principles of freedom, equality and fraternity.

However, especially regarding attitudes toward Muslim immigrants, the climate has changed much in recent years. A major reason for this was the rise to power of the late politician Pim Fortuyn, himself the victim of the first political murder in Holland since the end of World War II. A radical Dutch environmentalist shot him in May 2002.

The flamboyant Fortuyn was an ex-Marxist who became a liberal professor of sociology and who published several books including "The Islamization of Our Culture" (1997), before becoming the head of a political party called "Livable Netherlands." Feeding upon growing anti-immigration sentiment, the party's main slogan was "Holland is full." Thanks to the charismatic Fortuyn, the party rapidly rose in popularity. However, after publicly stating that "Islam is a backward religion," Fortuyn was forced to step down as party leader. That prompted the ambitious wannabe prime minister to establish a party under his own name known as the List Pim Fortuyn (LPF).

Despite, or indeed thanks to, Fortuyn's murder, and confirming a trend that had been obvious in pre-election polls, the LPF won no less than 20 percent of the vote during the 2002 elections, causing a landslide change in the Dutch political climate, traditionally dominated by a coalition of Christian Democrats and Labor and Liberal parties. In Fortuyn's hometown of Rotterdam, the LPF became, and still is, the largest party. Holland's second largest city and economic powerhouse thus bears a striking resemblance to its Belgian counterpart Antwerp, where the extreme nationalistic Vlaams Blok dominates the political scene and has called for a "Flanders for the Flemish."

Theo van Gogh had always admired Fortuyn, even though the two could not have been more different. The first was a short, fat, chain smoking university drop-out who, wherever he appeared, cultivated a working class image wearing jeans and a T-shirt; the second was a tall, handsome, openly gay academic with a liking for Italian designer suits. Van Gogh was a left-wing elitist who cherished his seat along the sidelines; Fortuyn a populist with political objectives.

The only thing they had in common was a sharp tongue and a dislike for Islam. Fortuyn always claimed he dared to say things as they were, where others remained silent. That's why van Gogh liked him. For years, the filmmaker was a kind of anarchist clown who badmouthed everything and everyone in society. This was a reason why, let's not forget, a majority of the Dutch, particularly politicians, hated him. He was also known as "the eternal anti-Semite" for his severe criticism of Israel and his statement that he was sick and tired of Jews talking about World War II and the Holocaust. Similar barbs were directed against Muslims.

Van Gogh's last film, "Submission," was a 10-minute artistic documentary in which he depicted extracts from the Koran written on a naked woman's back, to illustrate the stories of four Muslim women mistreated by the men surrounding them. It was the film's form that upset conservative Muslims, including the 26-year-old Mohamed B. who killed van Gogh.

To make the film, Van Gogh had teamed up with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a young liberal parliamentarian of Somali descent. Having fled her country of birth out of fear that she would be circumcised, she has become one of Holland's most vocal critics of Islam, if not always one of the subtlest ones. Last year, she openly called the prophet Mohammed "a pervert."

While the way someone chooses his or her words, no matter how out of tune or misplaced, hardly justifies their being killed, it's also fair to say that neither van Gogh's nor Hirsi Ali's often incendiary statements on Islam qualified as true "meditations." Freedom of speech is, historically, one of the pillars of Dutch society, but as writer Remco Campert recently wrote in the daily De Volkskrant: "[F]reedom of speech is not exactly the same thing as hurting people in the deepest of their soul." What's more, by attacking all Muslims, and the Koran and Islam in general, people like van Gogh, Fortuyn and Hirsi Ali leave or left no room whatsoever for nuance or dialogue. In fact, their claiming that all Muslims - Moroccans, Malaysians, Iranians and Indonesians - were, at heart, the same, only increased polarization on the issue in Holland.

The average Dutchman feels confirmed in his stereotypes of Muslims, and this is good for politicians like the late Fortuyn or Hirsi Ali, as they use this to attract the public's vote. Dutch Muslims on the other hand only feel more isolated and cornered, as a consequence of which they are increasingly falling back on their own Muslim community for protection and for a sense of belonging, defeating the stated purpose of those who blame Muslims for failing to integrate.

Take van Gogh's killer Mohamed B. He is not a fundamentalist immigrant who recently came to Holland. He was born there to a middle class family, speaks fluent Dutch and finished high school. According to his teachers he was the kind of guy whom people liked, someone who would probably make it. He did not. Over a year ago, following his parents' divorce, he dropped out of university and came under the influence of a radical mosque in Amsterdam. "Why would I study?" he asked a friend; "An American who doesn't speak a word of Dutch has more chance of finding a job than me."

This doesn't mean that Mohamed B.'s personal difficulties were justification for murder and he will have to pay the consequences for his actions. Today, however, increasing numbers of politicians are raising their voices to limit freedom of speech or religion as a solution to the present crisis. Unfortunately, fraternity has always been the least understood of the three basic principles (along with liberty and equality) the French Revolution ceded us. However, it is the bottom line of the other two: to respect each other as human beings.

One thing is certain, Theo van Gogh would turn in his grave if he heard today's politicians quarrel over the aftermath of his death, and if he could, he would get up and curse them with all his strength. In that sense: Theo, rest in peace.

Peter Speetjens is a Dutch journalist living in Lebanon. He writes for the Brussels-based

De Standaard and the Dutch NRC. He wrote this commentary for THE DAILY STAR

[blue phil]

As long as everybody was culturally identical, or at least culturally compatible in your view, you would have no reason to kick them out? Skin colour/racial history is completely unimportant in your eyes?

Cheers.

Skin colour / racial history is of absolutely no interest to me , Joey , as I have said on more than one occasion .( Some people , though , choose to believe what they want to - that's a reflection either of their intelligence ,intolerance of free speech and/or inabilty to fully digest posts ! )

As for your first sentence , I believe society needs shared values - ours go back to ancient times and are rooted on fundamental Judeo/Christian traditions that have evolved into what is broadly regarded as democratic values. There are those newcomers in our society who know little of British history and what they do know they hold in utter contempt . Islam and western style democracy are concepts that are incompatible . To me that is simply a statement of fact ; I neither hate Muslims nor have any regard for them , I am simply living with this social experiment like everyone else . But the questions I pose will one day have to be addressed - as they are in Holland....

Cheers .

[thenodrog]

Why if AESF, is wrong and whites are not now seen as the 'oppressed' race in this country did so many normally tolerant, upstanding members of the community vote for the BNP?

Because they are morons, and gullible, easily led morons at that. If that seems like a sweeping generalisation, well it probably is, but if you vote for the BNP you are a cretin of the highest order. Simple as.

Strange how the most 'liberal' often seem to object most to the workings of a democracy.

[joey_big_nose]

As long as everybody was culturally identical, or at least culturally compatible in your view, you would have no reason to kick them out? Skin colour/racial history is completely unimportant in your eyes?

Cheers.

Skin colour / racial history is of absolutely no interest to me , Joey , as I have said on more than one occasion .( Some people , though , choose to believe what they want to - that's a reflection either of their intelligence ,intolerance of free speech and/or inabilty to fully digest posts ! )

As for your first sentence , I believe society needs shared values - ours go back to ancient times and are rooted on fundamental Judeo/Christian traditions that have evolved into what is broadly regarded as democratic values. There are those newcomers in our society who know little of British history and what they do know they hold in utter contempt . Islam and western style democracy are concepts that are incompatible . To me that is simply a statement of fact ; I neither hate Muslims nor have any regard for them , I am simply living with this social experiment like everyone else . But the questions I pose will one day have to be addressed - as they are in Holland....

Cheers .

I accept that culture clash is an issue. Any society demands integration, social cohesion is required to prevent the ghettoisation of any of its members and allow individuals to reap the full benefits of living in a multi cultural society.

I do not however accept that we should just get members of Islam to pack their bags and get out. We crapped on their parade for two hundred years we can accept a bit of crapping on ours, if they do (and I really would say they do not). Also those Judeo-Christian democratic values you highlight should morally prevent us from kicking them out- Muslims, as long as they do not break the law (something I hasten to add most have not), are our complete socio-economic political equals in every regard. It is a problem that will be dealt with and overcome by a concilliatory- dare I say liberal approach.

Every culture has had to adapt at some stage to the introduction of another with varying results. The only other way you could deal with it is build a wall to surround half the world. Oh, what a fine terryfying war that would lead to in fifty years time.

Rather than try and get Muslim's kicked out why not have a look at how you can help integrate their culture into ours. It is firstly far more likely to help the good of your fellow man (this is what drives this all, right?), and secondly far more likely to have any impact at all on anything.

Cheers.

Edited November 26, 2004 by joey_big_nose

[Eddie]

Democracy is wonderful because we all get the chance to participate in the government.

Democracy is awful because we all get the chance to participate in the government.

[baarree]

It was alleged that shortly after 9.11 there was a documentry on Nederland television a broadcaster in Holland, they were interviewing muslim elders, and they were asking them why they were leaving Holland to go to England, some of them had been in Holland more than twenty years, they said that the muslim leaders in England wanted them to join them there, and it was their chance of eventualy gaining a self governing muslim comunity in the west!

[joey_big_nose]

It was alleged that shortly after 9.11 there was a documentry on Nederland television a broadcaster in Holland, they were interviewing muslim elders, and they were asking them why they were leaving Holland to go to England, some of them had been in Holland more than twenty years, they said that the muslim leaders in England wanted them to join them there, and it was their chance of eventualy gaining a self governing muslim comunity in the west!

Im sure that can easily be substantiated by sending an email to the television studio.

If you mean self governing as in their own parliament an so on it is impossible. It is impossible and indefensible to set up a government in the British democratic framework (or that of any 'western' country) on a racial/religious basis.

[thenodrog]

You've got to marvel at the human race's never ending ability to inject some humour and by doing so help to defuse virtually any sensitive topic / situation. I got this tm last night........

"Due to intense Press attention following the recently reported instances of monkey noises and verbal racist abuse Dwight Yorke is reported to have gone into hiding! ..................

.....................His agent says it's OK and not to worry as Dwight will come down when he's hungry. "

btw I have also recieved a few that are definitely NOT funny but rather sick and well ott re:the late Ken Bigley. No more of those please.

Edited November 27, 2004 by thenodrog

[Paul]

[roversmum]

Interesting article from an unexpected source in yesterday's Mail. Sadly they haven't put it on line as far as I can see.

Basically, Mo Camara (Burnley left back who is also black and a muslim) agrees with quotes made by David Sullivan about the Dwight Yorke incident. He says the best thing to do with racists is ignore them. He says it shouldn't become a big issue, it is only a small problem, because it is just a few people who have problems, and they should be pitied. He thinks Dwight's beset answer is to score three or four goals 'this weekend' ( ). He thinks all the publicity will encourage people who are a handful of misfits who like to 'see themselves on television doing those things'.

He was actually at the match with a Birmingham supporting friend. He says he heard the booing and asked his friend who said it was because Blackburn supporters weren't happy with the way Dwight played for them, but stresses he heard nothing racist. He saw what had happened on tv next day and says there are too many cameras which make things seem a lot worse. He says there is too much talking about it and it is time to move on.

Respect for Camara.

[thenodrog]

He thinks Dwight's beset answer is to score three or four goals 'this weekend' ( ).

Disagree rm. Yorke's best answer would have been to score ONE goal last weekend!

But if he ever had any fire in his belly it's long gone.

[roversmum]

Just a report from the article, tnd. My view is the same as yours! However, it looks as if Dwight is showing his true form - he doesn't help himself really, does he?

[OnePost]

I read the article roversmum and thought it was the best thing to come out of Burnley since the M65 was built, and we carried our three points down it.

[colin]

He says the best thing to do with racists is ignore them.

With all respect to Mo Camara, I think he is being a little naive.

Maybe he should talk to John Barnes and his black predecessors who were subject to 5,000+ making monkey noises and throwing bananas.

Surely the situation wasn't improved by "ignoring it."

It has taken many years of work until football has reached the stage where 2 idiots make the news at Ewood for making monkey noises. It didn't happen by itself.

[Kiwiwannabe]

With all respect to Mo Camara, I think he is being a little naive.

Maybe he should talk to John Barnes and his black predecessors who were subject to 5,000+ making monkey noises and throwing bananas.

I don't think Mo Camara needs to ask John Barnes, et al. about suffering racial abuse. According to a Burnley fan at my work Camara experienced exactly what you decribed (though perhaps not from as many people) when he was playing for Burnley at Millwall a few years ago.

I think the media must take some responsibility for their reaction to what happened in Spain. They have effectively glamourised what happened by constantly playing clips of the Spainish fans. NO NEED! They can talk about what happened without playing the audio. I don't want to hear it and I'm sure the 'kids' that are going around copying it now only do so because they've seen it on TV since, and not during the match itself.