Asian Tsunamis

[American]

I'm not arguing that they aren't giving enough, I'm just wondering why the criticism is on the "Western Nations" whos backyard isn't affected, and has enough other disasters, natural and al Quaeda made that it is still paying for?

Oh, that's right, because we're evil. Like Gord says, where were they with aid after 9/11 or after the hurricanes?

[philipl]

These arguments are unbelievably stupid.

Several of those Governments have made massive military sacrifices in the military consequences to 9/11 and have troups in Afghanistan or in other theatres freeing up US troups to go to Baghdad. A not insignificant number of the 9/11 dead were non-US, non-first world citizens.

The per capita income in the USA is about 100 times greater than that of Bangladesh and Indonesia and 10 times that of Thailand and India. Why oh why would the poorest on earth be putting money into trying to restore the property of Floridians?

If we say OK, we only look after our "own", in case you haven't noticed, at least twice as many "Westerners" will have perished in these tsunamis than died in 9/11.

Everywhere is our backyard. I thought America learnt that on 9/11.

[American]

But Phil, you say to stay out of other people's backyards. I guess you are the almighty one who decides when and where we should help out?

I see you're still in front of your computer and not helping out yourself.

[Morph]

I'm not arguing that they aren't giving enough, I'm just wondering why the criticism is on the "Western Nations" whos backyard isn't affected, and has enough other disasters, natural and al Quaeda made that it is still paying for?

Oh, that's right, because we're evil. Like Gord says, where were they with aid after 9/11 or after the hurricanes?

Putting my bleeding, heart shaped liberal hat on for a second. Western governments should give more because...well, because we have more to give. Putting to one side the fact that we have climbed to the topmost rung of the worlds economic ladder largely on the backs of the third world. Ignoring the fact that we are happy to spend millions more on exerting our will, through military might if we deem fit, than we would ever consider spending on humanitarian relief. We are rich, they are poor, and in desperate need of help. We are in a position to help them, and (to my mind at least) under a moral obligation to do so. Everything else in the debate amounts to bull**** pedantry.

[Flopsy]

JUST TO REMIND SOME PEOPLE - A NATURAL DISATER HAS STRUCK SOME OF THE POOREST NATIONS IN THE WORLD - 100,000 PEOPLE ARE CONFIRMED DEAD - THIS WILL RISE AND RISE AND RISE. MILLIONS ARE HOMELESS WITHOUT POSSESSIONS HOMES OR HOPE AND YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT A NON EXISTANT IMIGRANT PROBLEM - YOU ARE PATHETIC AND ALSO MAKE ME FEEL QUITE SICK

or put it another way - if you want to "protect" this country from immigrants it might be an idea to help these refugees before they turn up on our doorpstep, because they have nothing left for them in SE Asia. think about that.

[American]

I'm not arguing that they aren't giving enough, I'm just wondering why the criticism is on the "Western Nations" whos backyard isn't affected, and has enough other disasters, natural and al Quaeda made that it is still paying for?

Oh, that's right, because we're evil. Like Gord says, where were they with aid after 9/11 or after the hurricanes?

Putting my bleeding, heart shaped liberal hat on for a second. Western governments should give more because...well, because we have more to give. Putting to one side the fact that we have climbed to the topmost rung of the worlds economic ladder largely on the backs of the third world. Ignoring the fact that we are happy to spend millions more on exerting our will, through military might if we deem fit, than we would ever consider spending on humanitarian relief. We are rich, they are poor, and in desperate need of help. We are in a position to help them, and (to my mind at least) under a moral obligation to do so. Everything else in the debate amounts to bull**** pedantry.

How does a country trillions of dollars in debt have more to give? If you have a larger mortgage than I, does that mean you should be donating more?

Oh, and if anyone was actually following this, they would see that we are going to restructure debt on money that we (and 18 other countries) have already loaned to them. We already give out billions in aid and loans, some of which has gone to these countries.

[blue phil]

Flopsy , you are being quite foolish and don't seem to have the intelligence to realise that my arguments thus far - in particular my first post - are that we AREN'T giving enough aid !!

I maintain that we give too much to economic refugees in this country and too little to the vastly more deserving poor abroad . Approximately £1 billion to the former against (for this disaster so far) a paltry £15 million , the price of a decent footballer .

I am not out of order for comparing the two and concluding that there is a stench of hypocrisy and self righteousness about our Gov'ts attitude on this whole matter . Foreigners are catered for here but ignored 99% of the time "over there" - this being the 1% exception .

Now if you have objections to my point of view , then fair enough , that's up to you . But don't throw what little weight you have around by needlessly censoring my posts in such a childish manner .

And stop shouting . It's against the rules !!!

[thenodrog]

It's an appalling and probably unparrallelled human tragedy right enough Flopsy, but it will not be helped by you coming over all emotional and not adhering to the posting guidelines which it is your task to uphold.

Also you appear to be confusing the word 'edited' with 'censored'. Please try to remain rational.

[mhead]

Flopsy...on the mark and for those who object to him really shouting consider the real significance.

This disaster is already the Worlds 16th highest loss of life in a single earthquake since the year 856. In 1201 1.1m people lost their life in Egypt and Syria and that was the worst tragedy.Krakatoa in Java that we've all heard of was responsible for just over 100,000 lives.

Puts everything in perspective for the "Blue" contributors and why the G8 nations need to do as much as they can.The Blair Government has an exemplary record on Internationai aid with DFID in the Uk regarded as the world leader(not forgetting USAID).We have given £50m now plus at least another £50m from the people by next week.

So give generously..its just been Christmas...and its the true meaning of a christian attitude.

This post means no political or religious harm to anyone.

[Morph]

If you have a larger mortgage than I, does that mean you should be donating more?

You and I both have mortgages, millions of people no longer have homes. I am really struggling to see the difficulty in this concept. As for your trillions of dollars of debt? You spent it, doubtless you enjoyed it. Elect a President brave enough to raise taxes and pay up. These people never had the luxury of trillions of dollars to spend, on account of them being some of the poorest nations on Earth. This is a global catastrophe in every sense. How can you be so insular in your reasoning?

[thenodrog]

Flopsy...on the mark and for those who object to him really shouting consider the real significance.

This disaster is already the Worlds 16th highest loss of life in a single earthquake since the year 856. In 1201 1.1m people lost their life in Egypt and Syria and that was the worst tragedy.Krakatoa in Java that we've all heard of was responsible for just over 100,000 lives.

Puts everything in perspective for the "Blue" contributors and why the G8 nations need to do as much as they can.The Blair Government has an exemplary record on Internationai aid with DFID in the Uk regarded as the world leader(not forgetting USAID).We have given £50m now plus at least another £50m from the people by next week.

So give generously..its just been Christmas...and its the true meaning of a christian attitude.

This post means no political or religious harm to anyone.

Very eloquently put mhead.......... and without recourse to infantile shouting as well.

[blue phil]

The Blair Government has an exemplary record on Internationai aid with DFID in the Uk regarded as the world leader(not forgetting USAID).We have given £50m now plus at least another £50m from the people by next week.

£50 million is nothing ! Blair spent a billion on the dome FFS . He's spent billions more killing the oppressed of this world - and , yes he's wasted billions more on those not in extremis in this country . It's about PRIORITIES , and his are all wrong .

Tell me one thing . If Blair , Bush and all the other nauseating hypocrites are so generous and efficient in spending OUR money , why is half of Africa dying of Aids ? They have an exemplary record in moral corruption and incompetence - that's all .

[American]

They have had a luxury of billions to spend due to the aid we have given them over the years. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be helping out, I'm saying that we shouldn't be criticized for not helping "enough."

When all is said and done, the relief efforts from the US, both with government support and private sources will be there. It's like saying that Bill Gates doesn't give enough money away. He gives a lot, and anything he gives is more than what they'd get if he gave nothing. Same can be said for our efforts.

I might not have been clearheaded in my reasoning, but my general point is more, why criticize the US, at least the government is doing something. Most of the people criticizing us are doing nothing.

Just read your post Phil: How much are you donating?

Edited December 30, 2004 by American

[blue phil]

If you're referring to me , American , then I have to tell you it's none of your business . I'm not going into all this stuff about bragging about who is the most "moral" and "generous" . I'm keeping my arguments strictly on a geo political level - IF FLOPSY DOESN'T MIND !!!

No offence (or offense)

[mhead]

BluePhil, you need to examine your thought processes and any notion you have of History.

Firstly,were not the products of your childhood not largely made in the British ex-colonies?

and Secondly it is reducing the inequalities that persuades people to stay in their own countries.

You have all the words of a mean-spirited,true Blue Tory.

But being a fellow-supporter I love you still.

[broadsword]

You are way out of line to start quizzing people on how much they're donating American. It's a private matter for individuals. Governments obviously like to declare how much they're giving because they like to brag and posture, although there's nothing to brag about our govt giving 15 mill!

How do you manage to get around with that enormous chip on your shoulder? Must give you terrible backache, maybe this explains your narky(*) behaviour.

* I believe the colonial equivalent is "antsi".

[blue phil]

            Firstly,were not the products of your childhood not largely made in the British ex-colonies?

      and Secondly it is reducing the inequalities that persuades people to stay in their own countries.

You have all the words of a mean-spirited,true Blue Tory.

Not sure what the 1st paragraph is about - we're all products of our history and I reckon I know mine well enough ...

Second paragraph sums up all my arguments - I would willingly see the overseas aid budget increase by twenty fold if it meant a significant decrease in mass population movement which at present serves nothing more than to benefit a tiny, tiny percentage of the world's poor - and not the ones most deserving at that .

Third paragraph is a grievous insult of the highest order . I'd cut my hand off before I voted Tory ...

Edited December 30, 2004 by blue phil

[American]

Bryan, I'm saying that he is criticising, but for all we know has given nowt*, which is less than what the US is giving. They seem to be all on their high horses about what we are doing (I would have said what we are or aren't, but we ARE, there is no aren't in there).

And if anyone actually read what was going on, they would see that these numbers are the initial amounts, and that after more assessments have been made as to the amounts needed, more money would be given (not to mention all of the other money being raised in all the countries mentioned - money that in the US can be deducted from income used for tax purposes, so roughly 1/3rd of the private donations from the US technically will come from our government).

Kind of sad that we Americans are criticised for not knowing enough, yet most people on here seem to get their news from this board.

*To steal a term from your country.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Those pictures of the dead decaying bodies on the beach...... remind me of the annual Scottish summer excursions to Blackpool.!

[blue phil]

Anybody who is a taxpayer has by definition given something , American . I don't think anyone on here would begrudge the 15 million , or whatever it is they're now stumping up - most reckon a tadge more wouldn 't go amiss.

[AlanK]

Stop bickering and dial this number to make a donation.

0870 60 60 900

I`m sure that platinum playstation game, champ manager upgrade or another slab of lager can wait.

[Eddie]

Bryan, I'm saying that he is criticising, but for all we know has given nowt*, which is less than what the US is giving. They seem to be all on their high horses about what we are doing (I would have said what we are or aren't, but we ARE, there is no aren't in there).

And if anyone actually read what was going on, they would see that these numbers are the initial amounts, and that after more assessments have been made as to the amounts needed, more money would be given (not to mention all of the other money being raised in all the countries mentioned - money that in the US can be deducted from income used for tax purposes, so roughly 1/3rd of the private donations from the US technically will come from our government).

Kind of sad that we Americans are criticised for not knowing enough, yet most people on here seem to get their news from this board.

*To steal a term from your country.

I think how people judge America is worsened by the fact that though it's all well and good that you may steal the glory now, failure to pay the UN and World Bank and then also living up to things like donations to developing countries means that already you don't have the best reputation.

[adopted scouser]

Anybody who is a taxpayer has by definition given something , American . I don't think anyone on here would begrudge the 15 million , or whatever it is they're now stumping up - most reckon a tadge more wouldn 't go amiss.

Especially when the cost of getting rid of one man and his generals will surpass $200 Billion.

The money is available, stop debating and help these poor sods who have lost everything. Cole-in Powell has emphasised the point that the USA's donation is proof that Americans can cooperate and assist Moslems. To make small political gain from global tragedy is, I'm afraid, typical.

[Oklahoma]

It is a terrible tragedy and everyone should do what they can to help!!

Any more discussions at this point is useless!

[Scotty]

Flopsy , you are being quite foolish and don't seem to have the intelligence to realise that my arguments thus far - in particular my first post - are that we AREN'T giving enough aid !!

I maintain that we give too much to economic refugees in this country and too little to the vastly more deserving poor abroad . Approximately £1 billion to the former against (for this disaster so far) a paltry £15 million , the price of a decent footballer .

I'm not having a go (this time ) but I'm genuinely interested. How have you come up with your £1billion figure?