First central midfielder

[Duff's Minder]

I certainly think we should vote for the greatest ever rover, from the final eleven though. Anyone else?

Great idea, although we need a clear definition of 'Greatest' first.

Greatest Player to pull on the shirt? (Ardilles, Dalglish?)

or

Greatest player based on when their time at the club?

[Drummer Boy]

Tim "the pimp" Sherwood - much maligned because he wasn't fancy and gave the ball away; however, at his peak, when he didn't play or had an off day then Rovers usually didn't win. He did simple things effectively, didn't make a fuss, galvanised the team and was a superb captain of his time. He even chipped in with the odd goal - no mean achievement when you are in a team fronted by Shearer & Sutton.

His skill, talent, temperament and vision were much underrated and I reckon that, given time, I could put together a case denouncing the international managers of the time for ignoring him - not glamorous enough and not playing for a Sky TV-adopted club, I suspect.

Quite simpy, he made the team he was in tick, allowing the wingers to do what they did best which in turn allowed Messrs Shearer & Sutton to do what they did best. He was part of the "spine" that any team winning things has to have (Flowers, Hendry, Sherwood, Shearer) around which the rest could ebb and flow.

What made him better than Batty? When the grade got higher Tim rose to it whereas Batty always made like a crab when playing in Europe or against the better teams - no unnecessary sideways/backwards passes or unimaginative punts from Tim, thank you very much. Oh, and he was available for selection more often than Batty - and utterly consistent.

OK - he lost the ball occasionally but sheer percentages say that, given the amount he was on or around the ball, he was bound to lose out now and then. Tim has to be in the team and he has to be captain IMO.

[den]

Sherwood was a good player, Drummer boy. However, this is all about finding a true "rovers great" for each position.

Can anyone honestly say that when they get to the twighlight of their lives [cue symphony orchestra ], they will be able to look back at Sherwood, take on all the palava of him and Sutton going into the Sunday papers to slag off the club something terrible, followed by his demands to get out of Ewood, and say "son, that Tim Sherwood was a truly great rover"?

[Drummer Boy]

It was a while ago, Den, but I seem to remember Sherwood being critical of how the club was being run and expressing his frustration that, as club captain, he was either not allowed to express a view in private or told to shut up and get on with his job. Now, I am by no means in favour of player power - they're employees and have the same rights and responsibilities; however, when the appointed leader of the playing staff who is reasonably intelligent and articulate (certainly by footballer standards - I am led to believe he had a grasp of two-syllable words) is treated in a way he feels to be unreasonable and is given no opportunity to air such a grievance, I can see his frusttration being vented through alternative media - the press.

As for his transfer request - I understand he held a similar view to Sutton. If we went down, he wanted out - not unreasonable as he had won a pot with us, been in Europe and watched as we failed to strengthen the title team, made a dud managerial appointment (Ray Harford), showed a lack of ambition, bought players who were not capable of keeping us in the position we had reached and allowed our best players to leave. In fact, a spiral of mismanagement only corrected with the appointment of GS who brought authority back to the club and ensured everyone knew where they stood and their relative status to that of the club overall. He was ambitious - many people are.

Apart from all this, in the last two decades players leave clubs, move on and try their luck elsewhere as sure as night follows day - Tim was no different.

I think we should judge him on what he did on the pitch - which, to be honest - is all I remembered about him until you brought up the other stuff on which there are differing views and perceptions of the circumstances of the time.

If we do this, then I still think there is a strong case for his inclusion because when I am in my dotage at the Bide-a-Wee rest home for the seriously bewildered being fed gruel for £3000 a week that is paid for out of my dwindling home equity and by extra direct tax on my kids who can only get work on the KFC home delivery service, then I will remember Tim Sherwood as the player who was at the heart of the only non-metropolitan team to win what by then will be a @#/?ised European Super League brought to you by Sky TV - but only if you can afford the £150 PPV subscription. And the nurses will all think I am smiling at their voluptuous curves, but no - it is the mental picture of Tim Sherwood getting the better of Paul Ince (as he usually did), excluding the so-called Spice Boys from the game single-handedly at Anfield and putting the ball where it could do most damage at every available opportunity.

The other stuff you mention will be like yesterday's papers - keeping my chips warm or cleaning my backside!

It has to be Tim - any other vote is failing to recognise our greatest midfielder in favour of one we feel we have to vote for because they were always in them days - he was pretty good but not as good as Tim for the reasons mentioned earlier.

I'll shut up now.

[92er]

I think his transfer request was during Hodgson's reign in his second year.

[Drummer Boy]

I do believe you are right - towards the end of the Hodgson era. As I recall, his departure was imminent as Kidd associated him with the departure of his predecessor - I may be wrong, though.

I wonder if this will be discussed as an issue when the talk moves on to whether Derek Dougan should be in the all-time XI.

[billy]

Good read that about Tim Drummer Boy, from what I understood at the time, the main culprit was an agent, a real slime ball called Eric Hall, who talked Tim into a stalemate with Uncle Jack, by asking for more money even though he'd just got a rise a few months earlier, but saying Alan Sugar would give him more at Tottenham, it just developed from that, till eventually Uncle Jack said on your way Tim, and take your agent with you, funny thing, we don't seem to hear about Eric Hall these days. Personally I would have liked Tim to have come back to the Rovers, as a coach with a view to be manager someday.

[FourLaneBlue]

We can do a greatest manager poll, we can do whatever you want.

I can see past Garner too. Garns was voted our "cult hero". but that doesn't mean he was one of the two greatest ever strikers, does it?

I certainly think we should vote for the greatest ever rover, from the final eleven though. Anyone else?

Sorry what I meant to say was that I couldn't see past Garner being voted in, your mention of his cult status is the reason why I think he'll be in the team. Besides, he is one of the greatest Rovers players, ok so he didn't play in the top flight but he was great for us. While we are thinking of 'great' as in quality we also have to think of how great he was for the club. Without Garner's stream of goals we'd have been relegated to the third division, certainly we would have been well down in 1986 before the last, vital must-win game against Grimsby even kicked off.

So while we are looking for the greatest players we also have to look for those who gave the contribution to Rovers. Which is why Garner should be in with a shout and not cast aside merely because he was a second division striker for us. Not that I'm saying I'm going to vote for him, just that his service to the club demands that he deserves consideration. It'd be disrespectful to such a great servant to our club to do otherwise.

The 'Greatest Ever Rover' should be a very interesting thread. To me though, a greatest ever player in the history of a club should have its interests running through their their veins and in their heart. I know who I think the greatest Rover we ever had was and it is scandalous that there is no statue to him. That's a conversation for another thread though soon to come though I hope...

[Al]

Good Post FLB. Can I suggest that you repost it or something similar when we are discussing the second striker. (Can't see past Shearer for the first)

[Drummer Boy]

Have to agree with Al - it will be interesting to see whether the greatest to play alongside Shearer will be Garner and all that he represents to those of us who were "blessed" with supporting this club in the '80's or, for the sake of argument, Derek Dougan whose talents were arguably far greater but whose relationship with the club is well documented elsewhere.

In the meantime,COME ON EVERYBODY - A LAST PUSH FOR TIM SHERWOOD - VOTE WITH YOUR HEAD NOT YOUR HEART AND YOUR DAD'S STORIES.

[MCMC1875]

It's looking like Clayton with Atko and Sherwood in a tussle for second. I'm either going with Latheron or Batty for my second. Latheron for the heart and Batty because he was class. I find the sideways pass comments about him a bit naive. Not all players become great from launching 50 yard balls all day. He was great at keeping possession, something this current team cannot do. 42 England caps, 10 as a sub.

Has anyone else mentioned Lee Richardson? The most one footed player I've ever seen.

Many a true word spoken in jest!

Richardson did indeed spend a considerable time with one leg in plaster.

[MCMC1875]

Atkins is a cult hero. Fine for the Super Atko fan club that used to exist in the Blackburn End Enclosure (pre-Jack) but not for the best in the clubs history.

Although I agree with a few people, that other than Clayton, the competition seems somewhat threadbare compared with the debates for the back four. Strange really. I bet for most other clubs these positions would have been the most highly contested.

To make the 'greatest' choice easier, a vote could be run later to choose a team of 'cult heros' (eg Garner Atkins Rathbone etc)

[MCMC1875]

We can do a greatest manager poll, we can do whatever you want.

I can see past Garner too. Garns was voted our "cult hero". but that doesn't mean he was one of the two greatest ever strikers, does it?

I certainly think we should vote for the greatest ever rover, from the final eleven though. Anyone else?

Best tea lady, physio, drummer?

[MCMC1875]

Good read that about Tim Drummer Boy, from what I understood at the time, the main culprit was an agent, a real slime ball called Eric Hall, who talked Tim into a stalemate with Uncle Jack, by asking for more money even though he'd just got a rise a few months earlier, but saying Alan Sugar would give him more at Tottenham, it just developed from that, till eventually Uncle Jack said on your way Tim, and take your agent with you, funny thing, we don't seem to hear about Eric Hall these days. Personally I would have liked Tim to have come back to the Rovers, as a coach with a view to be manager someday.

Eric Hall did stir it up between Rovers and Sherwood.

The other extreme is the pre-agent days when managers had it 'easy'.

I have heard that Chelsea once came in for Derek Fazackerley.

Bob Saxton said not for sale and didn't tell Faz.

Ban agents.

[MCMC1875]

Dont think we've heard anything about Harry Healess yet. Thought he was a defender!

Captain of the 1928 Cup winners, he has a blue plaque put up at Higher Croft I think.

Plaque is on a house in the middle of Top O'th Croft, in sight of the Darwen End.

[den]

result:

Tim Sherwood, [ 23 ] [14.20%]

David Batty, [ 8 ] [4.94%]

Ronnie Clayton, [ 109 ] [67.28%]

Mark Atkins, [ 5 ] [3.09%]

Howard Kendal, [ 3 ] [1.85%]

Eddie Quigley, [ 1 ] [0.62%]

Jimmy forrest, [ 2 ] [1.23%]

Simon Barker. [ 2 ] [1.23%]

Eddie Latheron [ 1 ] [0.62%]

Harry Healess, [ 1 ] [0.62%]

Tony Parkes, [ 5 ] [3.09%]

Stuart Metcalfe, [ 2 ] [1.23%]

Total Votes: 162