Major Incident In London

[Flopsy]

dear god my spelling's got awful - the heat must be buggering up my keyboard

[Guest Kamy100]

Wel what can I say other than this is a sad sad sad day for me. I never ever thought that people from within the community who are born and bred here in the UK would ever be capable of carrying out such an act. In my opinion this changes everything, if these guys did how many more are prepared to do it? There are plenty of young people that I have come across who are angry about Iraq and the Palestine situation, now i believe that all of these are legtimate targets of the fundementalist, they are young and naive and can easily be brainwashed. I am genuinely scared for the future and tonight I just feel so ashamed that these people have used Islam as justification for their evil acts.

[colin]

OK Smithy,

I insulted you because your original post was insulting.

The thread started off as a discussion about the bombs in London.

60 dead, 100s injured, and, as you pointed out, rescue workers were picking up parts of bodies in 140 degrees in tunnels with the added bonus of rats hampering the work.

And then you re-direct that to one of your "mini-lectures" on illegal immigrants.

It was just cheap opportunism to promote your view point on something that has absolutely nothing to do with the bombings.

If you can't see that as being insensitive then I pity you.

[Flopsy]

hes not posting on here again Colin

[Drummer Boy]

hes not posting on here again Colin

331575[/snapback]

I do not feel this is the right thing to do - AESF is entitled to his views and to air them along with other members of this MB. We may not agree with them but preventing his airing them is counterproductive IMO.

As for the developments since I last posted:

Yes, there is some validity in immigrants who feel unable to live by the laws of this tolerant land being returned to their native land. When in Rome etc. - even though we are as a country a pretty exciting cultural melting pot.

No, this is a world away from advocating the banning of further immigration from Muslim countries - the people who undertook this attack give an otherwise perfectly decent community a bad name, so let's not blame everybody for the crimes of a few.

It is truly shocking that we have created a situation where people born in this country feel they are entitled to kill and maim their fellow citizens. We have to ask ourselves if we have become too accepting of cultures/beliefs/values that are diametricallty opposed to those of the indigenous population and whether the bending over backwards has become too painful.

It is one thing to want Pakistan to win at cricket but quite another to want to blow up our capital city - the Muslim community has a significant responsibility to play their role as British citizens and hound out those who hide in cowardice behind them otherwise we run the risk of Enoch Powell's "rivers of bood" speech coming true and some very dangerous civil situations developing.

As an aside, there is no better advertisement for the banning of Muslim schools in the UK where, according to a recent Schools Inspectorate report, intolerance is too readily accepted and even encouraged. Why is this different from Roman Catholic schools during the period of peak IRA activity? Because, to the best of my knowledge, RC schools in the UK were never accused of accepting and encouraging religious intolerance.

I don't have an insult to add here but would ask, as a normal member of this MB, that we show each other a little more respect than has been evidenced above and keep some basic courtesies and intellectual rigour in mind on what is a very important and dangerous topic that could determine the civil environment for years to come - I know we're all capable of that, including AESF whose comments warrant discussion and debate not emotive slanging and the threat of a ban.

It is the thoughtless banning of so-called offensive thoughts and language that has contributed to the divisions that have lead to these tragic events - to differentiate is healthy (I'm black, you're white), to discriminate is wrong (you can't have a job because you're Muslim). I hope this makes sense.

[Ste B]

Confirmed reports now regarding controlled explosions

Ste, where you see that about Bradford?

331431[/snapback]

I was in the middle of the area evacuated. (no jokes please)

[Ste B]

Its a pity that the arguments about racism etc etc couldn't have been kept in a separate thread away from the the discussion about the bombings as, for me, they merely distract from what the thread should have been about, whatever the title says.

.....

Thoughts are with the chap who's business associate is missing and with that person's family.

331494[/snapback]

Agreed.. and i'm sure there are better threads available for people to try to score points against each other.

Agree to disagree, but at least show some respect and keep the posts civil.

[BMan]

I do not feel this is the right thing to do - AESF is entitled to his views and to air them along with other members of this MB. We may not agree with them but preventing his airing them is counterproductive IMO.

I think you misunderstand DrummerBoy. AESF has chosen to no longer participate in this thread. He is not banned as you seem to think.

[Drummer Boy]

I think you misunderstand DrummerBoy. AESF has chosen to no longer participate in this thread. He is not banned as you seem to think.

331592[/snapback]

Oh ............ I'll get me coat, then!

And get off my high horse.

[BMan]

Oh ............ I'll get me coat, then!

And get off my high horse. 

331595[/snapback]

No, not at all! I think if you read the thread all the way to the beginning, you would have realized this. No big deal!

[Drummer Boy]

I tried, but it all got rather depressing.

I went to University in Leeds and lived in and around the Hyde Park area and drove a bus around Holbeck/Beeston - it's all a bit close to home. The greater disappointment is the apparent obsession with rights with little apparent regard to responsibilities. I know it may seem a quantum leap in logic but I am sure there is a causal relationship here that underpins the ideological motives. Overall, we do not have a history, to the best of my knowledge, of ideology undermining the communal/national consciousness to such an extent - hence the limited revolutionary activity in comparison to others. I've always derived a certain pride in this characteristic and hope it continues, rising above recent events.

[Ewood Spark]

The fact is that their would be no such thing as suicide bombers if rational thinking was taught in our education system. While deluded lunatics think that they are going to paradise when they shuffel of this mortal coil (blind date with 72 virgins / violin lessons with angels - delete as appropriate) we will continue to be in this mess. The only chance for future generations is to get the pernicious mind virus, religion, out of education.

[colin]

hes not posting on here again Colin

331575[/snapback]

Flopsy,

He might not be posting, but he might just be reading.

Colin

[thenodrog]

The fact is that their would be no such thing as suicide bombers if rational thinking was taught in our education system. While deluded lunatics think that they are going to paradise when they shuffel of this mortal coil (blind date with 72 virgins / violin lessons with angels - delete as appropriate) we will continue to be in this mess. The only chance for future generations is to get the pernicious mind virus, religion, out of education.

331608[/snapback]

So thats why your precious Blackburn with Darwen Council has just granted planning for a state funded muslim school ES? Crack open the Bollinger indeed cos (thanks to Jack Straw's personal intervention) now we have a council now ridiculously run by a determined minority of just 6 and with a racist mayor for good measure eh? Are you still proud of em?

[colin]

So thats why your precious Blackburn with Darwen Council has just granted planning for a state funded muslim school ES?  Crack open the Bollinger indeed cos (thanks to Jack Straw's personal intervention) now we have a council now ridiculously run by a determined minority of just 6 and with a racist mayor for good measure eh?  Are you still proud of em? 

331612[/snapback]

(1) Well Gordon, I can't really speak for AS, but did he describe Blackburn with Darwen Council as "his precious?"

(2) "Blackburn with Darwen Council has just granted planning..." if by that, Gordon, you mean planning permission, then you are wrong in assuming that the religious stature of the school has anything to do with planning law. BwD BC is a planning authority and as such has to heed PPG1 to PPG 13. Don't worry if you don't know what they are.

(3) "we have a council now ridiculously run by a determined minority of just 6." Looks like the voters of BwD have voted. And that is the way the cookie has crumbled Gordon.

(4) "and with a racist mayor for good measure eh?" Looks like another reason why you should have voted Gordon. Or even stood for election for the Council.

Still, it's easy to sit on the sidelines and gripe.

Toodle pip, Mr Grumpy

[Ewood Spark]

So thats why your precious Blackburn with Darwen Council has just granted planning for a state funded muslim school ES?  Crack open the Bollinger indeed cos (thanks to Jack Straw's personal intervention) now we have a council now ridiculously run by a determined minority of just 6 and with a racist mayor for good measure eh?  Are you still proud of em? 

331612[/snapback]

Whilst I would debate the decision at a national level to fund religious schools I applaud the council at a local level for their even handedness in handling this difficult dictate. Remember them granting planning permission in recent years for the replacement St Wilfreds Church of England School?.

[Paul]

Every time I read this thread yhere is reason to close it down. It has been closed once and the re-opened after requests from members. If members of all opinions cannot behave decently towards each other the thread will be locked.

Please..........thankyou

PS - none of you want the terrorists to win. One part of their objective is to divide or to amplify the divisions that exist in our society. Some posts suggest to me a small success for the terrorist.

[philipl]

Now we have confirmation of suicide bombers, British society faces some stark choices.

This can be turned into a Muslim v "Christian" or brown skin v white skin conflagration. The recipes for that are contained in the posts of the people I have already criticised and with that would come untold miseries.

Suffice to say keeping communities apart and rolling back integration is not an option except in the warped minds of a few individuals. London (where I spend a considerable portion of my time) is deeply integrated. The list of names of people missing, killed or injured so tragically and randomly thrown together by the killers' bombs shows how global London is. My own immediate family is a mix of Christian, Muslim and Buddhist.

MUch better that both the Muslim and non-Muslim communities now recognise the responsibilities each has to each other and to themselves.

Just as the trail to the bombers was started by one of the mothers reporting her son as missing to the police so society can undo the radicalisation and alienation of this extremely dangerous minority.

There are tensions, hypocricies, and massive imbalances in the second generation communities from the sub-continent that these terror acts will now blow open. Processes which would inevitably have sorted out those issues over decades will now have to be resolved in months or a very few years.

The Islamic community will have to face the extreme mullahs as much as the ill-educated imans shipped in from Pakistan as being every bit as much a source of problems as the actively pro-IRA Priests were for the Catholic Church.

Britain plc itself will probably have to face the reality that the extreme form of Wahabiism as practised in Saudi Arabia has financed the "Islamic" preaching which indoctrinated these killers. Saudi is Britain's third largest trading poartner outside of the US and Europe and almost single-handedly keeps Britain's high tech arms industry going.

No amount of high tech surveillance or repressive security legislation will hide the true source of much of the cancer within the Islamic world which the west has happily supported and traded with to secure a safe and controllable source of oil.

[thenodrog]

Whilst I would debate the decision at a national level to fund religious schools I applaud the council at a local level for their even handedness in handling this difficult dictate. Remember them granting planning permission in recent years for the replacement St Wilfreds Church of England School?.

331617[/snapback]

Now you know that I am not particularly religious ES and that I disagree strongly with any sort of denominational schooling (and the divisions in society that they cause) but maybe there is a small clue in the title 'St Wilfrids CHURCH of ENGLAND School'.

Anyway you must realise that your logic is fundamentally flawed. You are trying to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds on this issue.

btw 'Wilfrids' is not spelt with a 'e'.

[thenodrog]

(1) Well Gordon, I can't really speak for AS, but did he describe Blackburn with Darwen Council as "his precious?"

(2) "Blackburn with Darwen Council has just granted planning..." if by that, Gordon, you mean planning permission, then you are wrong in assuming that the religious stature of the school has anything to do with planning law. BwD BC is a planning authority and as such has to heed PPG1 to PPG 13. Don't worry if you don't know what they are.

(3) "we have a council now ridiculously run by a determined minority of just 6." Looks like the voters of BwD have voted. And that is the way the cookie has crumbled Gordon.

(4) "and with a racist mayor for good measure eh?" Looks like another reason why you should have voted Gordon. Or even stood for election for the Council.

Still, it's easy to sit on the sidelines and gripe.

Toodle pip, Mr Grumpy

331616[/snapback]

Never done this before but can I nominate this for a Grooby for the most stupid and pointless post ever. 

Points 1 & 2 are completely irrelevent whilst 3 & 4 appear to condone racism and an anti-democratic form of government.  Do you ever bother to read what you have written before you post Colin?

Sorry but I cannot condone stupidity and ignorance and particularly not on a subject as serious as this thread.  Grow up.     

Edited July 13, 2005 by thenodrog

[thenodrog]

Every time I read this thread yhere is reason to close it down.

331639[/snapback]

Why? Can you elaborate on that? I asked Flopsy this question Paul and he did not elaborate. Life is not a bowl of cherries as this attack on our society proves. Do you think that we should bury our heads in the sand or sweep it all under the carpet? Life is full of sh1t most certainly and very regrettably but unfortunately its all we have! Sadly we are currently debating what some evil doers have seen as an alternative.

Surely debating a point is better than fighting over it is it not? As far as moderation is concerned there is little need for any, save for stamping down on direct insults e.g. referring to people as 'arse' and 'snidey racist' etc. Even some mods are guilty of this btw. Unfortunately imo the insult is ignored / forgiven or even encouraged if the mods own politics / sentiments concur. As unforgivable as a biased ref in football imo.

[thenodrog]

There are tensions, hypocricies, and massive imbalances in the second generation communities from the sub-continent that these terror acts will now blow open. Processes which would inevitably have sorted out those issues over decades will now have to be resolved in months or a very few years.

The Islamic community will have to face the extreme mullahs as much as the ill-educated imans shipped in from Pakistan as being every bit as much a source of problems as the actively pro-IRA Priests were for the Catholic Church.

Britain plc itself will probably have to face the reality that the extreme form of Wahabiism as practised in Saudi Arabia has financed the "Islamic" preaching which indoctrinated these killers. Saudi is Britain's third largest trading poartner outside of the US and Europe and almost single-handedly keeps Britain's high tech arms industry going. 

No amount of high tech surveillance or repressive security legislation will hide the true source of much of the cancer within the Islamic world which the west has happily supported and traded with to secure a safe and controllable source of oil.

331641[/snapback]

Philip.........Are you turning into me or Blue Phil? May I point out the old saying about 'shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted'?. Crikey if you had posted that a week ago you would be facing all sorts of accusations of racism or religious bigotry from certain people on here. The unthinkable (which I have warned about) has now happened AND will most certainly happen again and again. Anyway nice to see that the penny has dropped as it must have with many........ albeit far far too late.

[pg]

Philipl - as you rightly point out, Saudi Arabia is very much 'the root of all evil' when it comes to financing the spread of Wahabism and Muslim fundamentalists.

The Saudi Royal family have been very cunning over the past few decades. On the one hand, embracing the Bushes and other Western financial interests to grow very rich. On the other hand, not intefereing with the growing influence that Wahabism has on the streets of Riyadh, and throughout the Muslim world.

The current Iraqi war has as much to do with 'the Saudi problem' as it did with Saddam Hussien. By removing Saddam, the US were able to pull their troops out of Saudi Arabia..thus placating Osama and co. and taking pressure of the Saudi Royal family. Whether or not the west has the moral courage to tell Saudi Arabia to 'get stuffed' will be interesting. After all, why are states such as Iran and Libya evil, yet Saudi Arabia is not? Is it as simple as one has an oil industry open to foreign investment, yet the other two have nationalised ones?

The perpretrators of Sep 11 were mainly all Saudi, backed by Saudi oil money and trained by Pakistani militray intelligence. So far, the West is still staying friends with these two countries, whilst waging war on Iraq, and pressuring Iran..two countries with very little links to global terrorism (I'm not ncluding groups such as Hezbollah as it doesn't have a 'global revenge' agenda). Does such a policy make sense? Ask Tony and George.

Finally, Socrates said : All wars are fought for money. Far be it for me to argue with such wisdom. The ideas of a 'clash of civilisations', of 'religious wars' and 'defendnig our way of life' are for me just red herrings. Of course, there is no doubt that there are plently of religous nutcases in the world who think that they can make the world a better place by killing people.

But IMO, ultimately this conflict (which has been raging at various intensities since the fall of the Ottoman Empire) comes down to this.

The world's strategic energy reserves are based in the Middle East. They have it, and we want it.

Either we pay a decent price for it, or we turn our back on 20th century technology and create an energy infrastructure independent of oil.

Even Osama bin Laden realises that this conflict is at the heart of this conflict. In one of his 'messages to the west' after prattling on about Western decadence and the crimes of Israel, he says the the stealing of oil wealth from Arab countries is a reason for war.

Its all down to money.

Is money worth dying for?

[philipl]

Philip.........Are you turning into me or Blue Phil?  May I point out the old saying about 'shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted'?.  Crikey if you had posted that a week ago you would be facing all sorts of accusations of racism or religious bigotry from certain people on here.  The unthinkable (which I have warned about) has now happened AND will most certainly happen again and again. Anyway nice to see that the penny has dropped as it must have with many........ albeit far far too late.

331662[/snapback]

There is no shift in my position whatsoever.

Are you saying you agree with me:

Suffice to say keeping communities apart and rolling back integration is not an option except in the warped minds of a few individuals. London (where I spend a considerable portion of my time) is deeply integrated. The list of names of people missing, killed or injured so tragically and randomly thrown together by the killers' bombs shows how global London is. My own immediate family is a mix of Christian, Muslim and Buddhist.

Or was there a reason you selectively edited out that part?

[thenodrog]

There is no shift in my position whatsoever.

Are you saying you agree with me:

Suffice to say keeping communities apart and rolling back integration is not an option except in the warped minds of a few individuals. London (where I spend a considerable portion of my time) is deeply integrated. The list of names of people missing, killed or injured so tragically and randomly thrown together by the killers' bombs shows how global London is. My own immediate family is a mix of Christian, Muslim and Buddhist.

Or was there a reason you selectively edited out that part?

331675[/snapback]

No Philip. No reason except to suggest that in ref to your first sentence, you could have fooled me! and to highlight the 2nd half of your post in which we quite obviously agree with each other.

As for a comment on the above "Suffice to say keeping communities apart and rolling back integration is not an option except in the warped minds of a few individuals" ..... and Blackburn with Darwen Council's education policy, as mentioned in my earlier post to ES. Common sense pulls one way whilst political correctness is pulling in the opposite direction.......... Or do you disagree Philip?

Edited July 13, 2005 by thenodrog