Major Incident In London

[pg]

What about the Arabic Christians from the Coptic (Koptic?) church?!?

[thenodrog]

And what about the millions of Muslims who live a peaceful, religious life just like  millions of Christians and Catholics here do.

331689[/snapback]

I hadn't spotted that! What a gud un Scotty! I take my hat off to you. My workmate, one or two mates and all my wifes family are Roman catholics and they all need putting in their place and reminding of their status from time to time. I've overworked the usual 'catholocism is OK for some but its not as good as the real thing' line and I really do need something new. Are you claiming copyright or can I just borrow it to use whenever necessary?

[thenodrog]

As for my solution - I haven't got one.  There isn't an easy solution - and there certianly isn't one as simplistic as Phil's (incidentally, I don't remember reading YOUR solution Theno).  The fact is that if someone is motivated enough to kill themselves in order to kill others then there's not a lot that can be done.  Of course, if there are Muslim clerics inciting young people then that should be stopped.  Of course, if there are illegal immigrants who are planning terrorist attacks then they should be deported / arrested / whatever.

The thing we've all got to realise though is that the amount of people who feel the same way as these bombers is tiny.  They are a very small minority in the Muslim community.  The security services need to concentrate their efforts on wheedling these individuals out (something I'm sure they are trying to do).

331741[/snapback]

Quite right. Dave Birch has touched on this too. Generalising maybe, but my opinion is that whilst the security and intelligence forces can do their best, the only real hope is for the muslim community to reject and outlaw the extremists and fundamentalists amongst them that peddle hatred and intolerance to the young and impressionable. This in effect is a progression of the old Norman Tebbit 'British are you? Right....... well which cricket team do you support then' theory, very unfortunately I'm not holding my breath. I wasn't invited but I gather that when Blackburn council (unbelievably stupid and insulting decision ) allowed Hamsa to speak in Bangor St community centre it was packed to the rafters. After 9/11 there were widespread and public celebrations by muslims in Blackburn. If as I expect this is the same in other towns and cities then it shows that extremists are definitely not a tiny, secretive and frowned upon minority.

Edited July 14, 2005 by thenodrog

[Scotty]

Catholics ARE Christians! Until the reformation the only Christians in the world were what are now called Catholics.

331906[/snapback]

Clearly I meant to say Catholics and Protestants. I apologise unreservedly and hope that it hasn't mortally offended anyone who read it. I can only hope that the world is still spinning on its axis and everyone can continue to live their lives without being too affected by my terrible mistake.

[Gareth]

Clearly I meant to say Catholics and Protestants.  I apologise unreservedly and hope that it hasn't mortally offended anyone who read it.  I can only hope that the world is still spinning on its axis and everyone can continue to live their lives without being too affected by my terrible mistake.

331929[/snapback]

Well I think you'll be OK - last time I checked the sun was still moving across the sky...

[Guest Kamy100]

I wasn't invited but I gather that when Blackburn council (unbelievably stupid and insulting decision ) allowed Hamsa to speak in Bangor St community centre it was packed to the rafters.  After 9/11 there were widespread and public celebrations by muslims in Blackburn.  If as I expect this is the same in other towns and cities then it shows that extremists are definitely not a tiny, secretive and frowned upon minority.

331926[/snapback]

Well that is actually factually incorrect. He was not invited by BwD borough council, the room was booked under false pretences, when the reception member of staff found out who was here he went out of his way to report the incident ASAP, which resulted in Hamza being ejected from the building. And the community centre was NOT packed to the rafters, it was infact only one room where specially invited people attended. As for after 9/11 there was NO mass celebration at what happened, infact people were shocked and disgusted just like everyone else. It also proved that the terrorists were just as happy to kill fellow muslims as they were killing non-muslims. Whilist I respect some of what you have to say and at times can see where you are coming sometimes you make sweeping statements (as above) without thinking about the facts.

[stuwilky]

Thank you Kamy.

Some sensible FACTUAL input, not sensationalist nonsense.

Edited July 14, 2005 by stuwilky

[broadsword]

What wonderful testimony to those that have died this thread is.

Why not just have an insults thread and be done with it.

[thenodrog]

Well that is actually factually incorrect.  He was not invited by BwD borough council, the room was booked under false pretences, when the reception member of staff found out who was here he went out of his way to report the incident ASAP, which resulted in Hamza being ejected from the building.  And the community centre was NOT packed to the rafters, it was infact only one room where specially invited people attended.  As for after 9/11 there was NO mass celebration at what happened, infact people were shocked and disgusted just like everyone else.  It also proved that the terrorists were just as happy to kill fellow muslims as they were killing non-muslims.  Whilist I respect some of what you have to say and at times can see where you are coming sometimes you make sweeping statements (as above) without thinking about the facts.

331995[/snapback]

Kamy I never said he was invited by BwD council, but surely they were negligent in not monitoring the use of their facilities? The buck must stop with them. Were you there in person because this report from the Lancashire council of Mosques web site

http://www.lancashiremosques.com/lcm_news_article.asp?ID=476

suggests that he was not ejected but allowed to conclude his meeting (1.5 hours) albeit in the presence of 100 people and a police representative. Whether the officer(s) was familiar with whatever language was employed that evening is not reported.

Interestingly and according to Councillor Khan the room was said to be booked by an inter faith discussion group, this in turn turns out to be something called Al Risala http://www.alrisala.org/ which whilst hardly qualifying as 'inter faith' does at least sound genuine at first glance and which if that is indeed the case has been seriously hi-jacked into funding the appearence of a well known islamic extremist.

Whilst clicking around I also found this

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,...,893392,00.html

prophetic report from 2003 which makes grim reading when considering how out-of-touch the Council of Mosques appears to be. As I said before our best hope in finding a solution lies within the muslim community and as I also said before I am not holding my breath.

Edited July 14, 2005 by thenodrog

[stuwilky]

It is interesting that the article appears to exonerate BwD council. the phrase "took them by surprise" springs to mind.

Also 100 people is hardly "packed to the rafters"

And look, Muslim leaders, condemning his views.

But still, lets kick them all out of the country.......

[blue phil]

As for after 9/11 there was NO mass celebration at what happened, infact people were shocked and disgusted just like everyone else. 

331995[/snapback]

I suppose that hinges on the definition of "mass" celebration - but celebrations most certainly did take place . There was also the famous case , reported widely , of the march by Muslims in Blackburn which degenerated into a pro Bin Laden demo , complete with banners . No arrests were made - of course ....

Earlier , Kamy , you stated "...Wel what can I say other than this is a sad sad sad day for me. I never ever thought that people from within the community who are born and bred here in the UK would ever be capable of carrying out such an act. ......."

I find it quite startling that while very many of us Non Muslims KNEW this kind of thing was inevitable , you as a Muslim could not see it . Very worrying and a good reason to treat the words of so called moderate Muslims with great scepticism and caution .

When we see some action from the moderate leaders in isolating the radicals , ie actually naming names and providing evidence to the police along with banning the distribution of extremist literature and propoganda both in and out of the mosque then things might improve .

Will that happen ? I don't think so . Unfortunately we are in the very early infancy of this phoney war on terror . Don't shoot the messenger !

[Eddie]

"No arrests were made...of course"

You say that as if it would seem surprising that people are not arrested when they do not break the law, shocking stuff really, isn't it?

[Dan Furness]

On topic........ I see police have now identified the 4th bomber?

[blue phil]

"No arrests were made...of course"

You say that as if it would seem surprising that people are not arrested when they do not break the law, shocking stuff really, isn't it?

332082[/snapback]

Shocking ? I'd bloody well say so . This was a couple of days after 9/11 for God's sake Eddie! Have you forgot that hundreds of Brits died in the US or do you just not give a toss ?

I wonder what you'd say if the BNP went out on the streets to celebrate the deaths of Muslims in Iraq or where ever .

[stuwilky]

  When we see some action from the moderate leaders in isolating the radicals , ie  actually naming names and providing evidence to the police along with banning the distribution of extremist literature and propoganda both in and out of the mosque then things might improve .

  Will that happen ? I don't think so . Unfortunately we are in the very early infancy of this phoney war on terror . Don't shoot the messenger !

332080[/snapback]

I am hoping that you are of the same opinion therefore of the BNP....

[thenodrog]

But still, lets kick them all out of the country.......

332077[/snapback]

Silly sod! You know I have never said that. Why are you being so stupidly emotive? Try to stay rational.

Anyway 100 people by word of mouth isn't much? Depends on what context you place the numbers in cos we now know to our cost what deadly havoc 4 or 5 brainwashed d1ckheads can do in the name of Islam.

[stuwilky]

Why the insults tnd?

You struggle to converse without resorting to that.

And of course they arent doing it "in the name of Islam", speak to the vast majority of Muslims and they condemn it as much (if not more) than you and I do.

[thenodrog]

I am hoping that you are of the same opinion therefore of the BNP....

332088[/snapback]

Dont be childish. You arguments are becoming more and more juvenile and stupid. Please do not descend to the politics of the playground Stu.

There are not 50 odd families grieving today because of the BNP ffs! There were not 6500 families grieving in New York because of the BNP either. THe BNP had sod all to do with Madrid, Istanbul, Kenya, Bali etc etc. The BNP is simply not worth consideration in this issue.

[stuwilky]

I'll take that as a "no they are fine to continue to spread their messages of hate and violence".

Not to mention further insulting comments. Why you stoop so low I will never know.

Edited July 14, 2005 by stuwilky

[thenodrog]

Why the insults tnd?

And of course they arent doing it "in the name of Islam", speak to the vast majority of Muslims and they condemn it as much (if not more) than you and I do.

332093[/snapback]

1. Because 'brainwashed d1ckheads' is fairly accurate.

2. They think that they are doing it in the name of Islam even if no one else does.

[Modi]

I find it quite startling that while very many of us Non Muslims  KNEW this kind of thing was inevitable , you as a Muslim could not see it . Very worrying and a good reason to treat the words of so called moderate Muslims with great scepticism and caution .

So are you saying Kamy as a "moderate Muslim" should be treated with caution?

When we see some action from the moderate leaders in isolating the radicals , ie  actually naming names and providing evidence to the police along with banning the distribution of extremist literature and propoganda both in and out of the mosque then things might improve .

Do you expect other individuals from other walks of life who think they know someone who holds extreme views to speak to the police on all their suspicions? I don't suppose your surname is McCarthy perchance?

Someone on this thread pages back started harping on about Muslims as not being a race and this not being a race issue. Could someone clarify what is a race? Are the Jewish people a race, for example, or is that also just a religion? If it's the latter does anti-semitism hold less weight because of this? Is there an equivalent expression for anti-Muslim sentiment to the irrational levels that some individuals seem to hold?

I'm genuinely curious.

[stuwilky]

1.  Because 'brainwashed d1ckheads' is fairly accurate.

2.  They think that they are doing it in the name of Islam even if no one else does.

332096[/snapback]

Of course I meant towards me, your comments about the INDIVIDUALS who bomb indiscrimately are absolutely spot on.

[thenodrog]

Could someone clarify what is a race?  Are the Jewish people a race, for example, or is that also just a religion?    If it's the latter does anti-semitism hold less weight because of this? 

332097[/snapback]

The first half of that post is daft, but the second half is a good question. Modi. As far as I understand to be Jewish is to be a follower of the Jewish faith (Judaism) and does not constitute a member of a race. Whereas Anti-sematism is an opposition to the Jewish faith. Therefore not racist.

Maybe the relatively recently introduced term of 'Islamophobia' may come into the equation regarding a close equivalent of anti-sematism but its just a guess and I do stand to be corrected.

[colin]

Shocking ? I'd bloody well say so . This was a couple of days after 9/11 for God's sake Eddie!  Have you forgot that hundreds of Brits died in the US or do you just not give a toss ?

Is that really relevant? No one was arrested presumably because, as Eddie mentioned, no one was breaking the law. Guilty of bad judgement & chronic insensitivity maybe, but not breaking them law.

Please can you explain what relevence your assumed conclusion to Eddie's attitude to dead Brits has to the subject? It does rather seem to be veering off in an irrelevant direction.

Big hugs, love & kisses

[Modi]

The first half of that post is daft, but the second half is a good question.  Modi.  As far as I understand to be Jewish is to be a follower of the Jewish faith (Judaism) and does not constitute a member of a race.  Whereas Anti-sematism is an  opposition to the Jewish faith.  Therefore not racist. 

Maybe the relatively recently introduced term of 'Islamophobia' may come into the equation regarding a close equivalent of anti-sematism but its just a guess and I do stand to be corrected.

332102[/snapback]

I'll avoid pointing out that the vast majority of the first half of my post was quoting BP....

Thanks for the enlightened explanation on the matter of race vs religion. However, you didn't answer the other question if being anti-semitic carries less weight because it's a religious issue and not a race one. Your learned comment on this subject would be welcomed.