Major Incident In London

[Scotty]

Maybe the relatively recently introduced term of 'Islamophobia' may come into the equation regarding a close equivalent of anti-sematism but its just a guess and I do stand to be corrected.

332102[/snapback]

The laughable word Islamophobia makes it sound like a mild ailment - a bit like arachnophobia. The reality is that someone who wants to ban all Muslims from entering the country clearly holds deeply discrimatory and prejudiced views and is, in my opinion, beneath contempt.

You can argue about the semantics of whether Phil's views are racist or anti-sematic or whatever - the fact is they show him to be just as prejudiced as a racist or anti-sematist.

[blue phil]

Is that really relevant? No one was arrested presumably because, as Eddie mentioned, no one was breaking the law. Guilty of bad judgement & chronic insensitivity maybe, but not breaking them law.

Please can you explain what relevence your assumed conclusion to Eddie's attitude to dead Brits has to the subject? It does rather seem to be veering off in an irrelevant direction.

Big hugs, love & kisses

332107[/snapback]

Colin , you really are beneath contempt . One minute you're branding people as "arses" and racist for delivering widely held opinions on a message board , the next you are dismissing as merely "Guilty of bad judgement & chronic insensitivity maybe..." those who march on the streets in open support of terrorists who had just claimed the lives of 3000 people .

Have you NO sense of perspective or has it really got to the stage were you are arguing against me just for the hell of it . If it's the latter then I'd suggest this is the wrong thread .

Modi - No I wasn't referring to Kamy specifically , of course not - only suggesting that he has had his eyes closed a bit .

As for shopping someone to the police who one suspects of recruiting for terrorism or of being terrorists themselves , yes I think the "moderates" have a duty to do so . This is as far removed from "McCarthyism" as I can think of - communists posed no serious threat (other than in an idealogical sense) to the US gov't - recent events have shown that radical Islamists pose an actual physical threat . I truly despair if you can't see the difference....

[stuwilky]

I'll take that as a "no they are fine to continue to spread their messages of hate and violence".

Not to mention further insulting comments.  Why you stoop so low I will never know.

332095[/snapback]

I note no denial...

[Modi]

      As for shopping someone to the police who one suspects of recruiting for terrorism or of being terrorists themselves , yes I think the "moderates" have a duty to do so . This is as far removed from "McCarthyism" as I can think of - communists posed no serious threat (other than in an idealogical sense) to the US gov't - recent events have shown that radical Islamists pose an actual physical threat  . I truly despair if you can't see the difference....

332122[/snapback]

Now correct me if I'm mistaken, McCarthyism ended up with a significant number of innocents being hounded because of the belief that any mindset outside of the paranoia was deemed to be wrong. However, the fear and suspicion over the incroachment of Communism was felt very strongly at the time and many saw it as posing "an actual physical threat".

No right minded person would harbour a criminal regardless of their crime. I would expect you to contact the police if you witnessed a white man beating up another white man, a Chinese lady, an Asian youth or whoever. What you seem to be suggesting is that the Muslim community is harbouring criminals. Do you think it is more prevalent than in any other community? From what you asaid about disregarding 'moderate' comments, it would seem to be the case, as you don't seem to want to trust people of a particular sector of community. Or is it that you don't trust anyone?

Incidentally, I don't think you're the only person on here who truly despairs.

[Guest Kamy100]

I suppose that hinges on the definition of "mass" celebration - but celebrations most certainly did take place . There was also the famous case , reported widely , of the march by Muslims in Blackburn which degenerated into a pro Bin Laden demo , complete with banners . No arrests were made - of course ....

  Earlier , Kamy , you stated "...Wel what can I say other than this is a sad sad sad day for me. I never ever thought that people from within the community who are born and bred here in the UK would ever be capable of carrying out such an act. ......."

  I find it quite startling that while very many of us Non Muslims  KNEW this kind of thing was inevitable , you as a Muslim could not see it . Very worrying and a good reason to treat the words of so called moderate Muslims with great scepticism and caution .

  When we see some action from the moderate leaders in isolating the radicals , ie  actually naming names and providing evidence to the police along with banning the distribution of extremist literature and propoganda both in and out of the mosque then things might improve .

  Will that happen ? I don't think so . Unfortunately we are in the very early infancy of this phoney war on terror . Don't shoot the messenger !

332080[/snapback]

You should not treat the words of morderate muslims with caution or scepticism. What I was saying was that i personally never thought that people born and bred here could ever go to the lengths that these people have gone. I am well aware of the "extremist" forces within the community and I am well aware of the anger that young people in particular harbour over the Iraq and Palestine issue, but never would I have thought that this could be munipulated in this manner. Thneo is right the only people who can sort this out is the muslim community itself, it is time that we took a long hard look at things and rooted out the extremist's, for example where in the past when these extremists turned up outside the mosque and people simply ignored them now this cannot be tolerated, they have to be told in no uncertain terms that they have no place within society. What has happened over the last week has been huge wake up call for all muslims, and I know lots of people who are taking long hard look at themselves and the communties that they live in.

On a side note I am hearing that there was a attack on Randall Street Mosque in Whalley Range, don't have any further details but it is hugely worrying, although it was reassuring to hear the "mulla" at our mosque telling everyone that no matter what the provacation people must not react.

[thenodrog]

I note no denial...

332124[/snapback]

There was a clue in my previous post Stu

"Dont be childish. You arguments are becoming more and more juvenile and stupid. Please do not descend to the politics of the playground Stu."

Sorry Stu but I did warn you, with you continually resorting to an infantile 'Yah boo sucks' type argument and you attempting to put words in my mouth I decided that our own personal 'debate' had gone well past its sell-by date. The day that I have to continually explain myself over and over again to intellectual pygmies is the day to wrap it up.

Choose your own rebuttal from the following as both apply....... Life is too short / Sorry but I dont suffer fools gladly.

Anyway Stu........Up the Rovers

[Ste B]

you continually resorting to an infantile 'Yah boo sucks' type argument

Theres an incredible amount of this happening from few people on this thread. DEBATE the issues not decide that somebody is stupid or whatever just because they disagree with you. otherwise you can argue somewhere else.

[MCMC1875]

Like they say in the pub.......

.......don't get started on politics or religion.

[thenodrog]

You should not treat the words of morderate muslims with caution or scepticism.  What I was saying was that i personally never thought that people born and bred here could ever go to the lengths that these people have gone.  I am well aware of the "extremist" forces within the community and I am well aware of the anger that young people in particular harbour over the Iraq and Palestine issue, but never would I have thought that this could be munipulated in this manner. 

332131[/snapback]

I'm struggling with that Kamy.

1. Wasn't one of the failed Israeli suicide bombers who was found dead in the Med from Blackburn?

2. Weren't officers from the anti-terrorist squad searching the 'College of Knowledge' recently?

3. Weren't terrorist suspects arrested in Blackburn recently and their properties searched for explosives?

imo this incident had more than an air of inevitability.

Another thing that continually baffles me is all this supposed concern amongst our IndoPak communities for Iraq and Palestine. Why is that? Surely both are Arab countries almost as far removed from the Indian sub-continent as this country. Furthermore Iraq was famously ruled by a (universally accepted) tyrant in Saddam, whose B'aath Party apparently dumped all matters of religion way down the list of priorities. Sure naturalised Brits can lobby and protest etc about it but becoming suicide bombers? Hardly! Maybe if you had mentioned the duffing up of the primitive Taliban regime in Afghanistan and the border areas of Pakistan, the bombers spiritual homeland and where at least one had recently visited for 'religious training' I may have experienced just a glimmer of understanding but Iraq! and Palestine!....... do me a favour.

These bombers were supposed to be British ffs! What are the chances of 4 English Christians blowing themselves and as many fellow passengers as possible up on buses in Harare as a protest at Mugabe's tyrannical and murderous treatment of white farmers who wouldn't leave their homeland? None I would suggest so why? Is Zimbawe so much different to Palestine?........ Anyone?

Rebels without a cause springs to mind with these murderers.

[colin]

Colin , you really are beneath contempt . One minute you're branding people as "arses" and racist for delivering widely held opinions on a message board , the next you are dismissing as  merely "Guilty of bad judgement & chronic insensitivity maybe..." those who march on the streets in open support of terrorists who had just claimed the lives of 3000 people .

    Have you NO sense of perspective or has it really got to the stage were you are arguing against me just for the hell of it . If it's the latter then I'd suggest this is the wrong thread .

Phil, my little plaything,

I called Theno a "snidey racist" about 30 months ago. He hasn't managed to get over it, I'm quite surprised that you too are suffering hurt. I really hope you manage to get over it and I apologise for any hurt it may have caused. I really am sorry if you are offended. Really sorry.

As for the "arse" comment directed at AESF, well that was because he took the opportunity to commemerate 50+ dead and hundreds injured to justify treating us to one of his tabloid sermons on immigration. Now if that's not deserving of "arse" then I don't know what is.

Now then, this next bit gets a bit complicated:

You came in with a comment that

No arrests were made - of course ....

in relation to some bad taste demos post 11th September

Then Eddie said

You say that as if it would seem surprising that people are not arrested when they do not break the law, shocking stuff really, isn't it?

Then you said

Have you NO sense of perspective or has it really got to the stage were you are arguing against me just for the hell of it . If it's the latter then I'd suggest this is the wrong thread

I'd love you to explain my (or Eddie's) lack of perspective for suggesting that people who have not commited any crime should not be arrested.

And don't forget to not detract from the discussion if you can possibly avoid it.

As usual, huge hugs & kisses. xxxxxx

[pg]

Don't forget that there were spontaneous candle-lit vigils in downtown Tehran after Sep 11 with people offeres prayers for the New Yorkers.

[stuwilky]

There was a clue in my previous post Stu

"Dont be childish. You arguments are becoming more and more juvenile and stupid. Please do not descend to the politics of the playground Stu."

Sorry Stu but I did warn you, with you continually resorting to an infantile 'Yah boo sucks' type argument and you attempting to put words in my mouth I decided that our own personal 'debate' had gone well past its sell-by date.  The day that I have to continually explain myself over and over again to intellectual pygmies is the day to wrap it up.

Choose your own rebuttal from the following as both apply.......  Life is too short / Sorry but I dont suffer fools gladly.

Anyway Stu........Up the Rovers

332139[/snapback]

Its easy to see why people resort to name calling with you. I merely asked a simply question of you, one which you refuse to answer, nad have still refused to answer. Comments like "continually", continually referring - as far as I am aware this our first exchange on this matter so how can I continually do something?

You decided that our debate had gone past its sell by date so resorted to petty name calling.

Yes Up The Rovers.

[thenodrog]

I'll avoid pointing out that the vast majority of the first half of my post was quoting BP....

332114[/snapback]

No you wont.

[thenodrog]

The sentence in bold italics is a strange statement from a usually very 'careful' source imo..........

Root Out Evil Extremists - Prince Charles

The Prince of Wales has called on Muslims to 'root out those among them who preach and practise such hatred and bitterness'.

Prince Charles said it was the "duty of every true Muslim" to condemn last week's suicide bombings.

He added that a "deeply evil influence" must have been brought to bear on the "impressionable young minds" of the bombers.

Writing in the Daily Mirror, Charles said that Islam was not the cause of the terrorism and pointed out that most Muslims had condemned the atrocities.

He said: "Some may think this cause is Islam. It is anything but. It is a perversion of traditional Islam."

Strange in that surely present day Islam in it's many guises also by definition a perversion of traditional Islam just as any modern religion is a perversion of the original. Somehow his definition needs clarifying imo.

[broadsword]

"No arrests were made...of course"

You say that as if it would seem surprising that people are not arrested when they do not break the law, shocking stuff really, isn't it?

332082[/snapback]

Too late for it now, of course, but isn't there a law being brought in, something about incitement to racial/ religious hatred?

I think it's just been brought in, and if I'm right, then surely it should apply equally to all, not just BNP stormtroopers.

[Drummer Boy]

Too late for it now, of course, but isn't there a law being brought in, something about incitement to racial/ religious hatred?

I think it's just been brought in, and if I'm right, then surely it should apply equally to all, not just BNP stormtroopers.

332186[/snapback]

My understanding is that this legislation was already in the planning stage as a result of the Schools Inspectorate report observing the promulgation of intolerance and hatred in faith schools, particularly those of the Muslim faith. Together with recent visits by "holy men", the need for such legislation was already felt.

You make a good point Bryan - racial/religious hatred of ALL types is to be actively discouraged as is any incitement to bring this about, whether it is the BNP or selected Imams.

It is not in the nature of being British to be so intolerant and if you can't live with this tolerance of those who are different you should go somewhere more in tune with your prejudices.

This is an important piece of legislation to offset 20-30 years of liberal legislation concerned with confirming rights - now we have something in the pipeline that balances this with a focus on responsibilities as a citizen of this country.

Not before time as you say but better late than never.

[broadsword]

In an ideal world, free speech would reign.

But given that the apparent nature of Islam means that it appears to be easy to inculcate youths with the ideal of giving up their own lives to kill as many innocent by-standers as possible, to go and meet Allah ... well, just for the safety of the majority of the population, these people shouldn't be allowed to spill their bile. It would obviously be better if Islam were self-regulating, but it appears that isn't the case.

What I would like to know is why it is that if you blow yourself and others to smithereens you go to heaven with 70 birds, why everyone's not doing it? Why doesn't Captain Hook do it? You never see an elderly suicide-bomber, wonder why this is?

Perhaps because the fools that do it have been cynically manipulated.

[dave birch]

Careful , Bryan

[broadsword]

I only found out this morning that Islam (apparently) means "peace", so it must be distorted in some way in order for people to believe in it, and to also go around blowing people up.

N'est pas?

[Nayef]

Dont be childish.  You arguments are becoming more and more juvenile and stupid.  Please do not descend to the politics of the playground Stu.

332094[/snapback]

It appears that anyone disagreeing with your rather obvious extreme right views on this thread is likely to receive a flurry of insults from you. Why do you feel this is necessary? Why do you have to resort to insults to make your point?

I've read this thread through and post after post, you seem hellbent on hurling insults to people and then have the temerity to write the above quote!!

I guess everyone has a right to their opinion. You are entitled to your views which appear to be underlined by a resentment of muslims altogether just as much as others are entitled to theirs.

[Kiwiwannabe]

I can't find anything in the media to back it up and I missed the local news this morning, but apparently there was some trouble in Beeston last night. For those of you who know the area, the Tommy Wass pub had to be closed. Some people at work have described it as 'riots', but I don't know for definate what happened or how many were involved.

I've just been sitting in my office close to Beeston listening to police sirens all day, as there have been all week. I drove through Beeston yesterday afternoon and its still crawling with media and police. South Leeds feels a really sad place at the minute.

[Biddy]

They showed some footage of that pub on newsnight, I think it was last night. Basically about 50 or so people had gathered at the pub were drinking (obviously) and becomming a nuisance. It ended up with a couple of arrests and police in riot gear getting bottles and glasses thrown at them.

Not sure if anything else happened after that though.

[Timmy]

As a fully trained chemist, I have checked the ease at which info can be found on the web on producing acetoxyacetone (acetone peroxide), the chemicals that was found in one of the bombers houses...it would appear that you would only require a very basic practical chemistry understanding to make this chemical.

These chemicals can be easily purchased from chemicals suppliers with little proof needed of intent. Intreasting to compare this with buying of acetic anhyrdride (used in production of heroin) which is a lot tighter controlled.

It begs the questions who on earth puts this detail on the web?..and these are not extreame islamic sites.

[MCMC1875]

At 12 noon yesterday, when Britain fell silent, fireworks could be heard coming from the Earl Street area of Blackburn.

Edited July 15, 2005 by MCMC1875

[Eddie]

Maybe it was someone's birthday, or an enthusiatic French household celebrating the 14th....

Sorry to say though but Europe did not fall silent. I think everyone here would offer their deepest sympathies to all of those involved but no one really noticed any two minute silence.