Major Incident In London

[MCMC1875]

It would appear that some of these who would seek to destroy our culture are indeed UK passport holders. Some are not. Those who are not, let them go back to whence they came.

Is Rome alight yet?

Edited July 27, 2005 by MCMC1875

[stuwilky]

Talk about fiddling whilst Rome burns eh?  You lot would talk a glass eye to sleep. 

You pontificating lot all sound like Vicky Pollard.  Ah but... Yes but..... No but.

335308[/snapback]

TND - give him some lessons in answer avoidance! he needs help!

[Drummer Boy]

The HRA is a red herring in the context of this thread other than perhaps to wonder if it should apply to the bomber who has recently been caught and is about to be questioned on what he can tell the police about his organisation.

[Jimbo]

And your prize is : A Family Holiday For Four.

BBC

The policeman who shot dead the Brazilian electrician has been sent away on holiday paid for by the Met - Absolute quality - the copper loses control - shoots some innocent bloke 8 times and gets a nice liitle prize for doing so ! And now the papers are reporting that Menezes didn't leap the ticket barriers at Stockwell tube. More fabrication from the Met Police? - some mistake shurely

[Jimbo]

And while I'm on one - The police were all over commuters at Sidcup and Albany Park stations in South London, checking the bags and handbags of all passengers entering the station - nice to see them doing something, but shouldn't they be focusing their attentions a little more - since when have middle aged white women fitted the standard profile of an islamic sucide bomber ? Targeting their security check would have allowed 2/3rds of the 20 or so police involved in that operation to take part in similar actions elsewhere !

[Gareth]

The Brazilian guy's relatives are saying he wasnt wearing a bulky jacket.

Jean Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian shot dead in the head, was not wearing a heavy jacket that might have concealed a bomb, and did not jump the ticket barrier when challenged by armed plainclothes police, his cousin said yesterday.

Speaking at a press conference after a meeting with the Metropolitan police, Vivien Figueiredo, 22, said that the first reports of how her 27-year-old cousin had come to be killed in mistake for a suicide bomber on Friday at Stockwell tube station were wrong.

"He used a travel card," she said. "He had no bulky jacket, he was wearing a jeans jacket. But even if he was wearing a bulky jacket that wouldn't be an excuse to kill him."

[AlanK]

And your prize is : A Family Holiday For Four.

BBC

The policeman who shot dead the Brazilian electrician has been sent away on holiday paid for by the Met - Absolute quality - the copper loses control - shoots some innocent bloke 8 times and gets a nice liitle prize for doing so ! And now the papers are reporting that Menezes didn't leap the ticket barriers at Stockwell tube. More fabrication from the Met Police? - some mistake shurely

335356[/snapback]

Because it really is that simple isn`t it?

Picture this: You`ve been given intelligence that this guy is going to blow up a train full of people. He runs away when confonted.....to a train. You have a gun, you can stop this man...do you?...don`t you?

There are no right or wrongs in a situation like that, just judgement.

I`m not saying what happened is right but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[bellamy11]

I was under the impression that the policeman was under orders to shoot. If so, it's hardly the case that he 'lost control'. If my orders were to shooot the man I would hardly stop and say "actually I disagree with that decision on an ethical basis and I think you'll find the people on that tube are more than safe with him on board".

[Jimbo]

I'd say shooting someone 7 times in the head and once in the shoulder while pinning them to the ground would indicate that the shooter had lost control - I'm no SAS trained killer, but I'd have thought, to empty a magazine into someone is probably not following standard procedures. Plus orders to shoot ? from whom ? bloke on the end of the telephone ?

So two things to remember when strolling around London - don't carry a table leg & what ever you do, if looking blokes carrying guns start shouting at you - don't run ! and pray to F*** you aren't being mugged

[AlanK]

When you think that innocent lives are about to be lost, you don`t tickle a suicide bomber to death. You take him out. You give him no chance what so ever of detonating the bomb.

[broadsword]

Yes, they were being told what to do from a control room.

Number of people shot dead by police carrying table legs = 1

Number of known criminals who were a bit mental and were carrying a table leg when shot dead by police = 1.

If you thought the bloke you'd pinned down had a bomb on him you might empty teh magazine as well.

[Jimbo]

Number of innocent people shot dead = 1

Number bomb carrying suicide nutters shot dead = 0

I'm not sure who's winning that one !

And before you start to make excuses for the Police - they are supposed to be professionals - If you aren't up to the job, then don't do it - this is not play time - innocent people are dying.

The incompetence is in the fact that they allowed a person that they suspected of carrying a bomb to travel on a bus for 15 minutes before they even thought about challenging him, and when they did, it was on the tube ! I listened to the witness of the shooting on TV Friday morning talk about it & he described it as an execution.I do not remember Parliament ever voting on giving the police capital powers to execute anyone in this manner.

BTW Harry Stanley wasn't a mental criminal , but a slighly deaf bloke recovering from a cancer operation BBC

[broadsword]

If you think you can do better, go for it, Jimbo.

You'd think people are getting popped off every week by the Police. The number of innocent people shot dead by the Police in, oooh, the last twenty years is?

I've obviously read different reports on Harry Stanley to you. How many other cases can you name, where something similar has happened?

[Jimbo]

One is too many - these people are supposed to be upholding the law not becoming a law unto themselves - as for innocents shot by the police - Bloke sitting in a mini, minding his own business, looks like a villain - he got shot - can't remember his name - and can't be bothered to look it up either - the there was the drug dealer - pulled out of his bed naked & shot in the chest - look on the web I'm sure you'll find it !

I'm not saying I can do better either - but I'm not a policeman - I don't want to be - they do ! Plus they are not forced to become firearms officers, they volunteer, and with that comes some responsibility. One of the problems with the firearms officers I've met is there is an underlying macho culture that comes with the job - I've always been of the opinion that the people that most want to play with guns are the very people that should be kept away from them.

The US military have a very bad reputation because of their heavy handed, shoot first mentality, unlike the British Army.

[broadsword]

Steven Waldorf, and that was 22 years ago, not 20. ha ha!

Not heard of the drug dealer, but I'll let you have that.

It's an absolute avalanche of names, I'll grant you.

[Flopsy]

I still note that Blue Phil has managed to avoid answering anyquestions put to him a day or so ago. Surprising eh.

And Jimbo, if you want to volunteer to go protect us from suicide bombers go and join the met, and demand to be put on the front line. See how you cope.

I love these people who are brave to criticise the security services and the police forces, safely hidden at home in front of their monitors, secure in the knowledge that they'll never have to actuall leave home and try and improve society. Much easier to stay inside and moan and do nothing for the "society" they say is being destroyed by outsiders. More likely apathy from within to be honest.

Anyway Im off to avoid tornados in south birmingham for a bit.

[blue phil]

I still note that Blue Phil has managed to avoid answering anyquestions put to him a day or so ago.  Surprising eh.

335481[/snapback]

FlopMod - I think there's one thing we can all agree on and that is I'm not afraid of putting my point of view , even when it's unpopular and (sometimes) confrontational . I've never avoided any issue .

Now I already spend enough time on here , so if I don't respond to every single little issue that halfwits like yourself put forward , it's because I'm prioritising in favour of more intelligent posters. Or the debate has moved on .

In all honesty I haven't the faintest idea what these questions are , nor am I going to trawl back through the thread to find out .

Enjoy your stay in Brum . Don't rush back .

[blue phil]

Steven Waldorf, and that was 22 years ago, not 20. ha ha!

Not heard of the drug dealer, but I'll let you have that.

It's an absolute avalanche of names, I'll grant you.

335477[/snapback]

It's an avalanche if you're the victim or related to one of the victims .

On a similar theme , there's been many innocent Irish men and women who have fallen foul of British justice and spent years on end in prison . Perhaps we could argue that they should be bloody grateful they weren't shot !

Any sympathy for them , Bryan or was it just tough luck - being in the wrong place at the wrong time ?

As for the latest news about the Brazilian ; as soon as I heard the allegations from his relatives thousands of miles away in Brazil , I had the strangest feeling that they were giving us a truer account than the incompetents who actually carried out the "execution" .

The police and in particular the intelligence services are not doing a good job in this war on terror . Don't believe the avalanche of propoganda that tells us they are .

[Nayef]

I've just spent 2 weeks in the city of Rome.

Nothing was burning there although it did get friggin hot on 2 days.

Nice city anyway.

[Jimbo]

Flopsy - you know nothing about me at all - I spent 12 years in the Forces, I've done my bit - have you ? And secondly I work in the City and commute into London every day - I make 4 tube journeys and 2 train journeys every day, I'm the one who gets nervous about the asian bloke weaing the puffer jacket sitting opposite me, not you, up there in Brimingham so don't get sanctimonious on me.

And as for our wonderfull security & police forces - don't make me laugh - an intelligence service that couldn't find it's arse with both hands, and can't even get the correct mark when they've had the building under survielence for 2 days ! And of course our wonderful police never lie and cover up the facts !

[Flopsy]

yes I have Jimbo and yes I do.

And you will know the great oxymoron about Military Intelligence.

And I get the bus every day with lots of asian blokes wearing puffer jackets, and the dangers as great here in brum as down in London, plus we dont have the safety in numbers that you have down in London up here in the sticks.

Also did you do a tour in NI (I guess you did unless you were effing lucky) did you go on the decision trainer - Ie the SAT range with Feinians instead of russians?

How many did you kill on that, or did you get it right every time at the correct time?

Can you argue why Lee Clegg should have gone to jail as he broke the RoE or not. And did you play civ pop in the urban training? Ive still got the plastic bullets from mine

[Flopsy]

Bravo Phil, a little insult and then neat side step, bravo sir bravo - have you put your applciation in for westminster yet - theyre missing one of the best by the looks of it.

[Jimbo]

Sorry Flopsy - I don't understand your logic - You are in as much danger from Suicide Bombers in Brum as In London ? How do you work that one out ?

AS for NI - never did it - the only place I was shot at was at the beach clubs in Akotiri back in 86 - some Palestinians opened up from a RIB.

As for Private Clegg - you get a Green card - you know the rules - you know if you break them what the consequences will be - The police in this country seem to be able to shoot people with impunity, especially people that offer no risk to them or others.

What would happen to me if I decided that the bloke opposite me on the train was a suicide bomber - he's displaying all the hallmarks of one and I ended up killling him believing what I did was right - Family holidaay for 4 paid for by the Met - I think not !

As for Ian Blair - last night he has effectivly said that if you are suspected of being a terrorist then you should be killed - He said that the Brimingham Police were wrong to have used a Taser and should have shot to kill the suspect ! That is not the kind of authority I want the police to have.

[Flopsy]

I honestly think Jimbo that you had grounds to believe someone was a suicide bomber and you took him out (serious grounds being acting very suspiciously not just being coloured) then as long as you can justify you feared for life and limb I dont think a jury would convict.

I was given a yellow card for NI but thats coz the RoE were different.

And as for being in danger in brum - we're in as much danger as in london, but we dont have the safety in numbers due to the number of people who commute into brum compared to London.

Also I was in Hurst street a couple of years ago when the RIRA decided that they wanted to claim some car insurance and tried to blow up a car full of home made explosive. I was 150m away when they got the warning so dont talk to me about "safer" in birmingham.

As it is boys and girls youre still much more likely to be killed crossing the street than by anyone wishing to meet their maker via C4

[Flopsy]

Oh as for teh Tazer thing in brum - one of the main ways of setting up explosives is using an electric detonator - sticking lots of volts into someone who might be wearing explosives aint recommended. However they have someone to ask questions too now. Which is nice.