Major Incident In London

[thenodrog]

On a seperate topic of course......I do honestly wonder how some people in this world manage to put one foot in front of another at times.

[Manchester Blue]

Even on a thread like this, even after the pleas from others, you still can't help it can you Theno?

[Flopsy]

"Excuse me sir im arresting you on the suspicion of being persistantly coloured" I think the security forces can be excused for being paranoid for the next few days - but are they being paranoid enough?

To be fair as far as i can tell traditional Muslim garb is not suitable for carrying a C4 waistcoat, much better is something like a puffer jacket or, well errrm a bomber jacket (I hasten to add so named after what bomber pilots used to wear) Where you can hide the stuff underneath a bulky garment - dont forget you need to be able to get to the trigger to pull it (its usually a ripcord type device like on a parachute).

[stuwilky]

Appalled?  They'd have looked stupid not stopping him to check ffs "just across  the road from MI5"!    Crikey the security forces were placed on FULL alert yesterday.  They have trained for such an eventuality since 9/11.  Have you not heard of suicide bombers Biddy?  Muslim clothing is ideal for hiding expolsives strapped to the body.  If he has any sense he will be in a suit today.  Seriously! 

Now if you had said 'a scotsman in a kilt who works with us got stopped and searched' then yes I would have been suprised.

330244[/snapback]

So simply because he was in a different choice of clothing he should be stopped and searched?

Ok then.

[The Blunderer]

I admit I'm no expert, but wouldn't expect bombers to draw attention to themselves.

Much the same as not expecting to see burglars wearing striped jumpers, and carrying bags marked 'swag'.

[thenodrog]

In exceptional situations like this and on FULL ALERT dont you think that the police will be taught that in the event of them apprehending a suicide bomber there is a serious danger of the bomb getting detonated and them getting themselves blown up in the process as the bomber has nothing to lose? (I doubt that suicide bombers are rational people at the time). So if they point guns and make people raise their arms then allow me to make a couple of assumptions

1. it is probably in their training to do so, thereby getting the persons arms away from any 'trigger'

2. they are probably in a heightened state of anxiety themselves and scared sh1tless. Cut them some slack

btw thanks Manc for your meaningful and much valued contribution to the discussion.

[thenodrog]

So simply because he was in a different choice of clothing he should be stopped and searched?

Ok then.

330277[/snapback]

Of course, as anybody arousing any kind of suspicion in a situation of full alert would.

Why I have even to spell this out amazes me! Bombs going off all over the place, security forces in the capital placed on full alert and some bloke looking like Osama bin Laden saunters down the streety opp MI5 gets challenged........... and I have to explain it 3 times!

[Biddy]

In exceptional situations like this and on FULL ALERT dont you think that the police will be taught that in the event of them apprehending a suicide bomber there is a serious danger of the bomb getting detonated and them getting themselves blown up in the process as the bomber has nothing to lose?  (I doubt that suicide bombers are rational people at the time).  So if they point guns and make people raise their arms then allow me to make a couple of assumptions

1. it is probably in their training to do so, thereby getting the persons arms away from any 'trigger'

2. they are probably in a heightened state of anxiety themselves and scared sh1tless.  Cut them some slack

btw thanks Manc for your meaningful and much valued contribution to the discussion.

330282[/snapback]

Who said anything about pointing the guns and raising arms? You are twisting the facts to try and sustain your incorrect assumptions.

And Manchester Blue was simply trying to remind you yet again to stop making pointless and personal attacks during discussions.

Edited July 8, 2005 by Biddy

[Biddy]

Of course, as anybody arousing any kind of suspicion in a situation of full alert  would. 

Why I have even to spell this out amazes me!  Bombs going off all over the place, security forces in the capital placed on full alert and some bloke looking like Osama bin Laden saunters down the streety opp MI5 gets challenged........... and I have to explain it 3 times!

330284[/snapback]

No FFS, he wasn't sauntering down the road looking like Osama Bin Laden, in fact who even said he did.

He was going about his business entering his usual place of work.

Stop sensationalising and twisting things.

[Manchester Blue]

In exceptional situations like this and on FULL ALERT dont you think that the police will be taught that in the event of them apprehending a suicide bomber there is a serious danger of the bomb getting detonated and them getting themselves blown up in the process as the bomber has nothing to lose?  (I doubt that suicide bombers are rational people at the time).  So if they point guns and make people raise their arms then allow me to make a couple of assumptions

1. it is probably in their training to do so, thereby getting the persons arms away from any 'trigger'

2. they are probably in a heightened state of anxiety themselves and scared sh1tless.  Cut them some slack

btw thanks Manc for your meaningful and much valued contribution to the discussion.

330282[/snapback]

Theno I refuse to get drawn into a slanging match on this thread. The Blunderer made the point quite clear that do you really think these terrorists will be dressed in full muslim gear. The police have a difficult job but they have to ensure they don't make the situation worse. This is not political correctness, it is just common sense.

[Roaming Rover]

This is catch 22 for the police and other security forces. They do nothing and the bloke goes off and blows another area of London up killing and injuring many innocent victims and people will say why wasn't he stopped.

Or he gets stopped and is an innocent man.

But how could anyone have known???

I have to agree to Theno on this, although I didn't see the incident so can't really comment on whether it was OTT, but if I was a police officer on duty I'd have probably have done the same thing.

Anyway, IMO the police and all other emergency services deserve an award, as do all the civilians who helped yesterday, as they all did a great job in very difficult and emotional circumstances.

[broadsword]

- if a suicide bomber, why sit on the top and only blow the roof?

330263[/snapback]

Perhaps downstairs was full, in which case, that was lucky (in a sense!)

[greggyk]

Perhaps downstairs was full, in which case, that was lucky (in a sense!)

330294[/snapback]

well that would be perfect for the sicko then wouldnt it. He could just stand with the others downstairs and take more lives

[tcj_jones]

Of course, as anybody arousing any kind of suspicion in a situation of full alert  would. 

Why I have even to spell this out amazes me!  Bombs going off all over the place, security forces in the capital placed on full alert and some bloke looking like Osama bin Laden saunters down the streety opp MI5 gets challenged........... and I have to explain it 3 times!

330284[/snapback]

You don't have to spell it out for me theno, I agree fully.

He's explained why, lets leave it at this.

[Dan Furness]

Perhaps downstairs was full, in which case, that was lucky (in a sense!)

330294[/snapback]

Bryan, think over what you just said. If he was intent on making as much a mess as possible, can ya really see him trying to find an empty seat for god sake! You'd expect him to stand right in middle of everyone! not in a empty space!

[stuwilky]

Of course, as anybody arousing any kind of suspicion in a situation of full alert  would. 

Why I have even to spell this out amazes me!  Bombs going off all over the place, security forces in the capital placed on full alert and some bloke looking like Osama bin Laden saunters down the streety opp MI5 gets challenged........... and I have to explain it 3 times!

330284[/snapback]

So suspicions are aroused because he chooses different clothes?

Bloody hell, suspicious lot on here.

[tcj_jones]

Let's reverse this, imagine if an englishman was found next to a vulnerable building in Iraq, wearing western attire, soon after several bombs had gone been blown up in the same city. I wonder if they would be searching the thousands or muslims in traditional attire, or the westerner in shorts and sunglasses.

Bit of a bad example, but you get the idea. You cannot afford to be cautious in situations like these.

Edited July 8, 2005 by tcj_jones

[Biddy]

Bryan, think over what you just said. If he was intent on making as much a mess as possible, can ya really see him trying to find an empty seat for god sake! You'd expect him to stand right in middle of everyone! not in a empty space!

330306[/snapback]

Interesting points about the position on the bus. If my journeys on London Buses are anything to go by, the person (or left package) was probably on the bus for a while. As the Bus was at the height of peak and evenmore full due to tube closures, you would not have been able to get upstairs and infact you are not allow to stand upstairs. Therefore I am presuming that whoever or whatever was there, would have got on when there was still space to A) get upstairs and get a seat upstairs.

Police have now announced 50 confirmed deaths. Sad, sad day.

Edited July 8, 2005 by Biddy

[Manchester Blue]

Let's reverse this, imagine if an englishman was found next to a vulnerable building in Iraq, wearing western attire, soon after several bombs had gone been blown up in the same city.  I wonder if they would be searching the thousands or muslims in traditional attire, or the westerner in shorts and sunglasses.

Bit of a bad example, but you get the idea.  You cannot afford to be cautious in situations like these.

330310[/snapback]

Yes but the point is that if a terrorist was in Iraq of english origin he would be trying to blend in not stand out a mile. By picking out people who you think look a likely candidate you just inflame the situation and in the end make things worse. If it was as simple as stopping every person who looked likely then they would have my backing but it just isn;t that simple.

[Roaming Rover]

Yes but the point is that if a terrorist was in Iraq of english origin he would be trying to blend in not stand out a mile.  By picking out people who you think look a likely candidate you just inflame the situation and in the end make things worse.  If it was as simple as stopping every person who looked likely then they would have my backing but it just isn;t that simple.

330325[/snapback]

Maybe that's the point though. You wouldn't expect a terrorist to stand out, so maybe they did just that. You know what they say, expect the unexpected!

To be honest, both sides have valid points on this, I agree that it could inflame the situation and the police have to be careful not to start harassing innocent people. But at the same time the safety of the public has to be No1 priority.

[Flopsy]

Simon Barnes

[blue phil]

Yes but the point is that if a terrorist was in Iraq of english origin he would be trying to blend in not stand out a mile. 

330325[/snapback]

That's true . At the moment I'd feel more comfortable sitting on the tube next to someone with a beard and in full traditional dress . It'll be certain that the ones who left the bombs will have been dressed appropiately in western clothes . A person can look normal , act normal and still commit such acts - the banality of evil it's been described as .

What this says to me is that in the current climate any Asian , however dressed , cannot expect to walk past MI5 without being searched or questioned . The bottom line is that Asians (or even African Muslims ) were responsible for this outrage , therefore they must expect to be scrutinised more than a German or a Swede for example . Like it or not it's a price they have to pay for living in a free society . It may even encourage them to turn on the fanatics and militants in their ranks . Instead of whinging and whining about the inconvenience of being frisked maybe they should reflect on the higher sacrifices made by others these last few days .

[Guest Kamy100]

The bottom line is that Asians (or even  African Muslims ) were responsible for this outrage ,

330366[/snapback]

Or even Arab muslims!! Perfectly understandable that the authorities are at the moment more likely to search muslims, this is a byproduct of this terrible event.

[caithnessman]

Next time rovers play in london ithink i will give the underground a miss!

[RoyRover]

If by searching in Muslim areas the authorities are able to find those responsible for this hideous crime, then I don't think anyone will care or be offended by any implications that would follow.

Edited July 9, 2005 by RoyRover