Major Incident In London

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Pictures are now being released of the missing,many around my own age....chances are they might never be found,I find this highly depressing.

The picture of the blood splattered front of the building some 30 ft from the bus explosion published in the tabloids does not leave much to the imagination.

[broadsword]

Did David Copeland wage war against this country by planting bombs in London?

Sorry, I just don't see it, you may as well say muggers are committing treason.

Rather than ripping people's beards off, we need to look at a more peaceable approach to a solution in the Middle East, rather than going in gung ho and watching the rubble bounce.

[Dan Furness]

Woman from Oswaldtwistle was on top deck of the bus, still no word from her...

[Manchester Blue]

Yes and making lot's of people angry who had nothing to do with this will stop it, good plan.

330602[/snapback]

Spot on that Eddie. The point is that the way these fanatics work is they require support and volunteers. Sadly there will be plenty of that available in this country. There are two ways we can deal with that. If we use the sledgehammer approach that some propose then we do the recruitment for them. Just the same was we did for the IRA for many years.

My opinion is not born from some kind of tree-hugging happy clappy view far from it. If I honestly believed that targeting whole communites would work i'd be all for it even if it did upset a few. However evidence has proved that it has the opposite effect. Look at Israel, the Basque region, and Northern Ireland. The temptation is immense to want react strongly and with force. It is therefore all the more important that we react properly and do things right.

One final point on people who say now they won't travel on the tube or go to London etc. That is exactly what these barstards want. Words like 'the blitz spirit' yet to readily bandied about but on occasions like this it is exactly what we have to do. You can't live in fear or we are just giving in and the unfortunate ones have died in vain. Sorry to be a bit deep but we have to be defiant and show these people that our way of life is the best and that we won't be beaten or frightened.

[blue phil]

Perhaps I'm missing the point but how will banning all beards longer than 5 inches keep us safe?

330613[/snapback]

Considering that one of the last things the 9/11 bombers did was to shave all the "unclean" hair off their bodies , probably not much , Matt

[blue phil]

...and how many innocent Irish people would we have murdered by the state as opposed to releasing them pardonned and innocent several years later?

330568[/snapback]

No innocent people would have been "murdered" by the state - there is a difference between murder and execution after due legal process . Not much consolation to those who are hanged , granted , but it is a very significant difference .

Your underlying point is correct , though . Many Irish have died due to miscarriages of justice - mostly down to a corrupt police force ( who are rarely brought to justice ) and an equally corrupt judiciary (at that time).

On balance , with respect to terrorists , you have to measure the costs "martydom" would provoke by a drawn out trial and execution with the need to remove such vermin from society in the ONLY truly permanent way .

To me the morality of execution doesn't come into it - its effectiveness is the only issue . Unfortunately it does with the liberal ruling elite who are motivated by idealogical motives rather than pragmatic , democratic ones (any chance of a referendum on the subject?). It's also clear to me that it's this very same misguided , weak minded "morality" that has left us in the position where Muslim extremists can so easily ply their trade .

If we're talking treason trials , maybe we should indict Blair on the charges of willfully and culpably neglecting to maintain any meaningful controls of our borders in order to achieve his dream of a multi cultural GB , of allowing mass immigration of people who are not vetted in any way , and of failing to deport those whose presence here is known to be harmful to our interests ; and lastly instead of admiring his performances in front of the cameras , we should be asking why he isn't calling all the major Muslim leaders into his office and telling them to get their own house in order . Clerics being allowed to ferment religious hatred and war ? FFS

The vast majority of people in GB are sick of the weasel words of the politicians and of the Muslim leaders (if that's what they are) . The Muslim Council Of Britain (what happened to the Great bit?) are often quoted by Blair and co as if they warrent respect - yet this is the same MCB who refused to participate in the recent Holocaust rememberances . So much for religious tolerance !

Until Muslims start to act themselves to cleanse the scum from their midst instead of just talk , and our politicians do likewise , then the trouble is only going to get worse . A lot , lot worse . So far we've been lucky .

[blue phil]

edit

Edited July 9, 2005 by blue phil

[blue phil]

Smithy,

I don't thinkI have ever seen anyone sink so low as you have in your last post.

You're just an ar5e.

330546[/snapback]

No moderators reading ......or are they on the sherry as well.....?

[Bing]

One of the most disconcerting things to come out of the last few days was George Galloway's comments to Gavin Esler on last night's Newsnight.

When challenged on whether he thought the views he was expressing were wise at the particular moment, he attacked Esler and claimed he had spoken to hundreds of his constituents and they all fully endorsed his opinions.

How unbelievably worrying because he didn't articulate this in a simple 'the Iraq war has contributed to this happening' way, it was much more venomous than that. He was expressing it as if they all agreed that this cowardly attack was deserved and justifiable. He appeared smug as in an 'I told you so' manner, doing his best to stop himself smiling gleefully.

Where is this country heading if this odious man really does reflect the views of the people of Bethnal Green and Bow?

[1864roverite]

can anyone take fat george seriously ? He is about as intelligent as that bumley mp .

The first start is going to upset some, the second start will also ipset a faction of this country.

It doesnt matter what view you have it was a terrible tragedy for those involved, it is a sickener to the watching world.

The only message of hope is to carry on as usual. They WILL be weeded out and caught, there will be repercussions. Does anyone seriously think that our SF's are not out there doing the business ? of course they are, its a hidden war.

[broadsword]

Of the comments I have read attributed to George Galloway, I have to say I think he is right.

[rover6]

The most idiotic thing about all this is that Bush and Blair go on about the war on terrorism as if there's a finite amount of terrorists that just need to be wiped out and terrorism will be eradicated.

Terrorists are motivated by a 'cause'. What is needed is to undermine that cause to reduce the number of terrorists. Invading Iraq without UN backing was simply strengthening these crazy murderers resolve to fight for their 'cause'.

Can the war on terrorism be won? I don't see how.

Edited July 9, 2005 by rover6

[Bing]

We ARE winning the war on terrorism.

This attack shows that the war on terror and the security services are working effectively in that this was a very crude attack. Whilst it was co-ordinated and simultaneous, it was not on the scale that Al-Qaeda usually aim for. We have made massive impacts on their infrastructure and ability to launch complex and elaborate attacks.

We've heard much about ricin plots, possible attacks on landmarks and actually foiled many such attacks including the attempt to shoot down planes with RPGs. Thursday didn't have the same symbolism. If they had the capabilities, then this group (probably domestically formed) would have loved to have brought down the Houses of Parliament or Canary Wharf.

Britain must not show continue the same cowardice that the Spanish did after Madrid. Running away and apologising means that the terrorists win. We must ensure that Mr Blair and the government continue their fight on terrorism and tyranny despite what odious characters like that scumbag Galloway would like.

Sixty years ago tomorrow, Britain will celebrate finally beating Nazism. We won then, we will win now.

[Gareth]

Can the war on terrorism be won? I don't see how.

330716[/snapback]

Exactly... how do we know when we've "won"?

[mrsjansen]

I wonder how many people on here who are condeming the terrorists agreed with the war in Iraq?

I far one came on here and said that i disagreed with us going over and getting involved with other countries politics. I said our troops should be brought home because there will be a backlash. While this is not on the same scale, it is exactly the same, innocent people being targetted in an eye for an eye situation.

Bush and Blair went on about a war on terror. Hasn't really worked has it. I said at the time that Saddam Hussain wasn't a big threat on the Western world as Osama and his followers and it was he we needed to find.

This isn't the result of terrorists.

It is Bush and Blair who have blood on their hands.

Condolences to everyone who has lost someone in this tragedy.

Prayers for all the missing.

Every member of the emegency services in London. We salute you.

[Flopsy]

we werent in Iraq when some nice people flew two planes into the world trade centre

[speeeeeeedie]

Knee jerk cowboy justice, mass jingoism, blaming politicians, and anger are undersatandable reactions to a terrorist attack. I feel for the dead and find it hard to think of how their families are dealing with it, but it is too soon yet to try and offer solutions to a problem that will be around for a long time. As long as there are idiots out there who are willing to strap bombs to their chest and walk into cafe's etc, there will always be trouble. It is impossible for security services to stop terrorism 100%. Hopefully the world has made strides to eradicate a September 11th style massacre but one offs such as London and Madrid will continue with or without clampdowns on mosques, clerics, illegal immigrants, and long beard wearers.

As with all issues surrounding Al Qaeda and their ilk, many will throw in the racism card when an accusation is made. Unfortunately some amount of racial profiling has to take place here, they are fighting a Muslim holy war; why look for non Muslim looking people? The majority of Muslims are from or have ancestry from the Middle east, central Asia and northern Africa but finding the bad apple is is nigh on impossible therefore negating the need for rounding them all up as some advocate. Old fashioned spying, infiltration, informing, and good police work is the only way top stop attacks before they happen.

Western capitalism is at complete odds with certain areas of Islam. One teaches material satisfaction, the other teaches spiritual bliss. When sects of one side preaches hatred toward the other their will be problems. However you don't hear of many Western, non-Islamic people trying to blow up Muslims because of their spiritual success.

There are numerous problems that that need addressing and will take an age to do so, if ever. Cowboy George is trying to "spread freedom". He and many like him argue that this will help as if you can get people to think like you all will be ok. This is fraught with problems as Iraq II is showing. As long as Muslim preachers want spiritual enlightenment education rather than schooling to learn a skill and become productive idiot fanatics will always cause problems for the good among us. I get as fired up as the next person when an attack happens. The IRA, Al Qaeda, ETA are the three I have most knowledge of and all three are in the same boat for me; complete fools. If we do catch the people who bombed London and put them in jail, that should not be the end, surely if we get information out of them to stop other doing the same would be a better result that burning them at the stake?

Edited July 9, 2005 by speeeeeeedie

[mrsjansen]

No, we wheren't in Iraq when the world trade centres went up. But we were for the previous two Gulf Wars before that.

I'm not saying what happened in London was right, it disgusts me, as much as it does the next decent human being, but look at the statements released after Madrid it was for the countries that ha dinvaded Iraq and Afghanistan. The Spanish government pulled there army out.

At statement has come out today saying there will be constant reminders in the future while there is still conflict in Iraq and the Eastern countries.

[Tango]

I've been in Greece all this week and went to pick up a paper on Friday to see if we'd won the Olympic bid, to be confronted by the horrible scenes in London. It really shook me up actually, being far from home and knowing this had been going on, I can't imagine the effect on those involved. My thoughts and sympathies are certainly with the victims.

[Rovermatt]

This attack shows that the war on terror and the security services are working effectively in that this was a very crude attack. Whilst it was co-ordinated and simultaneous, it was not on the scale that Al-Qaeda usually aim for. We have made massive impacts on their infrastructure and ability to launch complex and elaborate attacks.

We've heard much about ricin plots, possible attacks on landmarks and actually foiled many such attacks including the attempt to shoot down planes with RPGs. Thursday didn't have the same symbolism. If they had the capabilities, then this group (probably domestically formed) would have loved to have brought down the Houses of Parliament or Canary Wharf.

Britain must not show continue the same cowardice that the Spanish did after Madrid. Running away and apologising means that the terrorists win. We must ensure that Mr Blair and the government continue their fight on terrorism and tyranny despite what odious characters like that scumbag Galloway would like.

Sixty years ago tomorrow, Britain will celebrate finally beating Nazism. We won then, we will win now.

330720[/snapback]

Great post.

Edited July 9, 2005 by Rovermatt

[Hasta]

No, we wheren't in Iraq when the world trade centres went up. But we were for the previous two Gulf Wars before that.

To be fair, regardless of the oil issue, surely the fact that Kuwait had been invaded was enough reason to go in previously? If Iraq had invaded Turkey and Turkey was unable to defend itself should we have just sat on our arses. Of course we shouldn't. Would going in and liberating Turkey have warranted two planes being flown in to the twin towers?

To change the subject a bit I see Birmingham centre has been evavuated tonight of the thousands of late night revellers that should be enjoying thereselves. I thinnk we may see similar scenes to this a few times over the next few days.

[Alan75]

Thousands of people are being evacuated from Birmingham city centre after police issued a terror warning.

Bomb squad officers have reportedly carried out a series of controlled explosions in the Broad Street entertainment district.

[1864roverite]

is that near st Andrews ?

naaaagh it sjust Brucey spouting off

[1864roverite]

for those who remark about the first gulf war.

I watched intensely from my position in the armed forces on 8th August when the Iraqi's marched into Kuwait, it wasnt pretty believe me. I watched engrossed in "live" coverage on my computer screen as to what it was the Iraqi army actually did as they waltzed into the city.

Having served in NI, been to the red sea clearing mines, seen numerous dead bodies, heads and limbs missing, I was totally shocked at the actions of the Iraqi army. They did not care a jot about what they did.

If you think your shocked by the actions last week in London then fear not, when the videos are released under the 30yr rule you will see exactly what they did. Now then compare this to the recent war and the capture of Saddam.

granted a few personnel showed what clowns they are for behaving in a cruel manner ie prisoners,shootings and cruelty. But believe me the way our armed forces went straight to baghdad was totally professional.

We have seen the torture of the alzarqawi faction, the slayings of innocents,Mr BIGLEY and co, he murder of a defenceless woman, the torture of other individuals. This is how they act. They could not face a proper fight and they could not face the thought of a true battlefield. They cant even target a worthwhile cause and have now killed many inncoent victims, coloured and white.

The people we are dealing with are not terrorists, they are not armies, they are worthless individuals, brainwashed, hell bent individuals who care nothing about true beliefs except their own misguided views. In short they are COWARDS.

We, the British, are a proud nation. We are undefeatable. We stood and faced Hitler and nazism and then shoved it straight back down their throats. The anniversary of such an ecvent is this weekend. We have stood the test of time with the ira. Theywere scum and still are, they again picked individual soft targets to tyr and make a point. They again were beaten, both by us and their own people.

These lunatics will be weeded out, the people who help them hide and preach their viscious rantings will be held repsonsible.

the gvt should start with them. kick them out, kick every single one of them out and shut that mosque at finsbury Park. let them get the message that we will not tolerate such behaviour. the sooner this is done the better.

Dont get me wrong, there are good muslim people out there, they are a majority. I know such people and am proud to call them my friends. They ahve the same beliefs as most of us.

We fund bakri and hook and yet still allow them to receive such benefits for their families. its a sad disgrace.

as for fat george, anyone who believe the trash that this man spits out needs to know a little more about him. he is a parasite who kissed the hand of the ultimate tyrant, Saddam hussain, he blessed the leader who organised the slaying of thousands for a return of oil/money and gift for his traitorism. he is as low as scum gets and anyone who accepts his views are clearly mssing that vital link in their brains.

the time has come to readdress the situation. the sooner the better

Edited July 9, 2005 by 1864roverite

[Gareth]

Was anyone listening to Radio 5 on the day it happened?

They were interviewing (mp3) a guy whose company were running a drill of a terror incident at the same time & same locations as the attack!

There's a transcript of the main part here.

POWER: At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now.

HOST: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?

POWER: Precisely, and it was about half past nine this morning, we planned this for a company and for obvious reasons I don't want to reveal their name but they're listening and they'll know it.

What are the odds on a terror attack taking place in the exact same location & same time as a terror drill?

Edited July 9, 2005 by Gareth