[Archived] The Old Gate Debate

[Paul]

Right me and Debs are not going to Wigan away, every paying customer counts 

364868[/snapback]

Wigan have already had Arsenal, Chelsea, Newcastle, Bolton, Sunderland and we still have each of those to come except for Newcastle. I reckon GAV's money is safe.......but I may need a couple of spares

[Guest Vinjay]

Vinjay, won obviously werent a Rovers fan back when we were in the 2nd or 3rd tiers of English football. Now im not saying i was, due to my age (18) ive been brought up on premiership football and i used to be somewhat like you. Why cant the walkers just buy everyone, why cant we win the prem again? Relegation changed my outlook on life, and now i am very happy to be a mid-table prem team. We are already punching above our weight, so back the team instead of moaning about investment. It just makes you sound ungrateful and arrogant, how many of the 92 league clubs would like to be in our position? 80+ that should put some perspective on things.

As for the gate y'sday, no supprise, whoevers idea it was to put that match as category A+ must be a complete idiot. West Ham will be an ok crowd next week cos it cate B and they will sell a fair few tickets!

365009[/snapback]

Well due to my age I wasn't eiether. I live in Blackburn (Always have) and the fact that I still support the club now dosen't make me a glory hunter which is why I ignore people when they make comments like go and support Chelsea. I will always support this club although Im getting more and more tired of supporting a no win situation.

I was brought up on Premier league football as well. For me the last few years have been nothing but downfall. For the older supporters it's been a huge rise and then a marginal downfall. I've had to watch my club fall from the top of the table to langusihing in midtable medicocrity while most of you saw the opposite.

Why can't the Walkers buy more players though? They have the funds too do so. Villa fans want Doug Ellis to sell because he isn't spending enough. Rovers fans should tell the Walkers to do the same.

[Guest Vinjay]

It`s the same for all the clubs Vinjay, who really expects the top four to be anything other than CFC,AFC, MUFC, LFC?

365000[/snapback]

The fans of those clubs haven't seen the same success recently though.

[Modi]

Well due to my age I wasn't eiether.

365015[/snapback]

The logic of some of your posts suggest you've never seen Rovers in anything other than the topflight...

[cletus]

BRISA have been investigating why attendances have dropped and their leading members are fully aware of who I blame. Yet they have done nothing but ridicule me while claiming to represent Blackburn supporters everywhere. No wonder I chose against attending their meetings.

Vinjay the only reason you seem to be getting 'ridiculed' is because hardly any other Rovers fans on this board agree with you. Your constant personal vendetta has gone far beyond boring.....it`s become pathetic. i`ve not once witnessed any grief aimed at you by BRISA as an organisation, but i have witnessed you p1ssing off a hell of a lot of Blackburn Rovers supporters with your constant 'stuck record' approach.

[Guest Vinjay]

The logic of some of your posts suggest you've never seen Rovers in anything other than the topflight...

365018[/snapback]

I haven't apart from 1999-2001. I was a lot happier then than I am now as well. The club wanted promotion but I wasn't aware that the only aim would be survival after achiveing it.

[Modi]

I haven't apart from 1999-2001. I was a lot happier then than I am now as well. The club wanted promotion but I wasn't aware that the only aim would be survival after achiveing it.

365026[/snapback]

Oh so you are more than 5 years of age? I stand corrected.

[cletus]

Well due to my age I wasn't eiether. I live in Blackburn (Always have) and the fact that I still support the club now dosen't make me a glory hunter which is why I ignore people when they make comments like go and support Chelsea. I will always support this club although Im getting more and more tired of supporting a no win situation.

When i was a kid, Rovers were in the 3rd division, but they were my team.

Another kid down the street always ran around in a Liverpool shirt, as they were the dominant force in football at the time. One day he came out in a full Aston Villa kit, they had just won the league & went on to win european stuff. The last time i saw him (a couple of years ago) he was a Man United fan. If you want to surround yourself with year-in year-out glory, may i suggest doing what the kid down the road did.

[Guest Vinjay]

When i was a kid, Rovers were in the 3rd division, but they were my team.

Another kid down the street always ran around in a Liverpool shirt, as they were the dominant force in football at the time. One day he came out in a full Aston Villa kit, they had just won the league & went on to win european stuff. The last time i saw him (a couple of years ago) he was a Man United fan. If you want to surround yourself with year-in year-out glory, may i suggest doing what the kid down the road did.

365032[/snapback]

I won't do that because unlike the Walkers I actually support Rovers.

[Guest Vinjay]

Well Liverpool are certain to be on Tv. I'm watching the BBC website which seems a bit behind by the way.

[Guest Vinjay]

Queens Park Rangers at Ewood. Home match against lower league opposition was what I hoped for.

Edited December 4, 2005 by Vinjay

[bellamy11]

I won't do that because unlike the Walkers I actually support Rovers.

365034[/snapback]

EXACTLY!

So tell me why they should put more millions into Rovers than they actually do. And tell me who, if they pull out or sold Rovers, would put more money into us than they actually do already.

You seem to be forgetting that Jack Walker was a Rovers fan and that is why we had so much money and that is why we saw that much success. We now don't have any Rovers fans with that much heart and that much wealth so people aren't living in expectations of trying to win the Premiership again because that simply isn't going to happen!

[Exiled in Toronto]

I don't understand why everyone seems convinced that no-one else would want to own us. Of course it doesn't make logical sense to pump money into a club, but since when were rich, vain men logical?

Why does Whelan want to throw money at Wigan? Why does someone want to buy the Villa for $40m. Why does the Reading owner throw his dosh at them, he'll never get it back. Why does Kilby endure having to work at the Turd every day and pay for the priviledge?

How do we know some vain Malaysian plutocrat wouldn't want to buy us? Will it be better than being owned by a deceased fan's trust? I don't know. But I do know that an ownership who aren't involved and who aren't in it for either the love or the glory makes no sense, because that's the only point of owning a club. If football were a real business, all but four clubs would be closed down immediately.

Vinjay is foolhardy in assuming that being bequeathed ownership also implies the attendant responsibilities assumed by more willing owners, i.e. pumping in more and more money in pursuit of glory. The Walkers should not and will not put a penny of their money into the club. They didn't ask to be related to the man who bought it.

But there are enough illogical, rich owners already in the game to suggest that one more might be tempted by the premiership status and the bought and paid for superb infrastructure of post-Jack BRFC.

Personally, I am convinced we will be sold within the next 2 or 3 years. The Trust would want it (assuming the terms allow for such an eventuality) and if I were Williams, I would want it.

The potential loss of $3 million a year would not sink the ship - just not replacing Amo and Flitty should save that - but the opportunity of having a purposeful, driven (and maybe more money than brains) owner is a prize worth seeking. Fans will start to come back when there is something to believe in. If it's just about the quality of the footy, it makes more sense to subscribe to Sky.

[stuwilky]

EiT,

you arent wrong.

But does it need mentioning in every post? No matter how unrelated.

[Paul]

Why can't the Walkers buy more players though? They have the funds too do so. Villa fans want Doug Ellis to sell because he isn't spending enough. Rovers fans should tell the Walkers to do the same.

365015[/snapback]

The Walkers can't buy more players because the club is not owned by the Walkers, it's owned by the Jack Walker Trust. The Trust is there for each of Jack's companies and the trustees have a duty to ensure that money is spent correctly. Pouring money into Blackburn Rovers would probably break the responsibilities and/or terms of the trust placed on the trustees. I don't think anyone is fully aware of who the actual trustees are but I'm sure they will be financial people first and foremost.

Jack's stated public ambition was for Rovers to wash its face, be self-funding. As far as I can see the trust has no more responsibility than to make up short-falls in income and to provide cash for players if this makes financial sense - i.e it's cheaper to financially support rovers in the PL than in the Championship. To invest in the club via players would be daft from a financial standpoint and break the terms of the trust. Why? There would be no guarantee of a return on investment - Leeds United anyone.

Thanks cletus, I think you are right.

[Exiled in Toronto]

EiT,

you arent wrong.

But does it need mentioning in every post?  No matter how unrelated.

365052[/snapback]

I think that ownership and attendances have some correlation. Look at Wimbledon after Sam Hamman left and sold to some disinterested Icelandics. They didn't get big crowds under Sam, but they got a lot smaller after he'd gone. At ManYoo 2,000 dyed in the wool Mancs would now rather watch a pub team because of ownership. Our own crowds went up 50% as soon as Jack took the helm; as opposed to the previous year when he had been providing the dosh but from behind the scenes.

Obviously no-one is staying away because of the Trust, but I don't think we have recruited many new ones to replace the churn since Jack passed away, because there hasn't been an emotional cause to become attached to. While survival might be a realistic goal, it's not much of a spectator sport.

[Guest Vinjay]

Vinjay is foolhardy in assuming that being bequeathed ownership also implies the attendant responsibilities assumed by more willing owners, i.e. pumping in more and more money in pursuit of glory.  The Walkers should not and will not put a penny of their money into the club. They didn't ask to be related to the man who bought it.

365051[/snapback]

But I should pay my season ticket money? If they don't want the club then they should do the right thing and sell it.

[Guest Vinjay]

While survival might be a realistic goal, it's not much of a spectator sport.

365056[/snapback]

It's not much ambition eiether. No wonder ticket sales have fallen. The club is a victim of it's own sucess.

[Guest Vinjay]

Jack's stated public ambition was for Rovers to wash its face, be self-funding.

365053[/snapback]

His ambition was also to be top 6 and pushing for trophies.

Edited December 5, 2005 by Vinjay

[Manchester Blue]

But I should pay my season ticket money? If they don't want the club then they should do the right thing and sell it.

365150[/snapback]

Sell it to who? Do you think anyone else fancies putting in £5-10 million a year to cover our operating shortfall? You just don't think anything through do you?

[Guest Vinjay]

Sell it to who?  Do you think anyone else fancies putting in £5-10 million a year to cover our operating shortfall?  You just don't think anything through do you?

365159[/snapback]

Just putting the club up for sale would be the right thing to do. I'm sure someone will come in eventually. I agree with what EIT said.

[Manchester Blue]

Just putting the club up for sale would be the right thing to do. I'm sure someone will come in eventually. I agree with what EIT said.

365160[/snapback]

So you confirm you haven't thought it through at all. Who on earth would buy a loss-making football club at a time when football in general is struggling. The Walkers trust fund is the only thing that is keeping this club in the Premier league at present. If the club were sold then what plans would the new owner have. The Walkers make nothing out of this club, could you say the same for a potential purchaser.

If somebody came in with a decent proposal fair enough but you don't just put clubs up for sale like houses, strangely enough rich Blackburn fans willing to bankroll the club with no reward are few and far between.

[roversmum]

The thing is, you're looking long term here. For top players you're talking millions of pounds, year in, year out, and wages on top.

Being realistic, how many clubs have that kind of money coming in even with rich owners?

Whatever Jack wanted, he is gone now, and he always intended the club to be self-financing so the fact that money is still being pumped into the club by the Trust has to be a bonus.

And you are not going to find anyone, unless another Jack, who is going to put money into a small town football club punching above it's weight.

[Exiled in Toronto]

So you confirm you haven't thought it through at all.  Who on earth would buy a loss-making football club at a time when football in general is struggling.  The Walkers trust fund is the only thing that is keeping this club in the Premier league at present.  If the club were sold then what plans would the new owner have.  The Walkers make nothing out of this club, could you say the same for a potential purchaser. 

If somebody came in with a decent proposal fair enough but you don't just put clubs up for sale like houses, strangely enough rich Blackburn fans willing to bankroll the club with no reward are few and far between.

365164[/snapback]

The same could have been said of Hearts; but someone turned up, bought a loss-making and decrepit set-up, and then proceded to plough millions in. Prior to the Rix fiasco, I didn't hear too many of the subsequently packed Tynecastle complaining. Even post-Rix, they are one point off the top and playing to full houses.

Makes even less sense than somone buying Rovers.

[Manchester Blue]

Yes but Hearts were not bought not put up for sale that is the point. If a rich businessman wanted to put his money into Blackburn I wouldn't have a problem but putting them up for sale wouldn't bring about this. Also putting a few million into Hearts is the equivalent of what JW did for us in the early nineties. You would need a hell of a lot more than that to make an impression in the Premiership.

It's simply unrealistic and downright stupid to suggest that the Walkers should put the club up for sale. If the Walkers want to sell, then fair enough but announcing that sends out all the wrong signals.