[Archived] The Old Gate Debate

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

I reckon Ewood will be half empty for the Man Utd game. OK, the club will raise more funds, but at the same time, it could very well  lose more fans - never to return.

368870[/snapback]

Its been said before, but I just wonder if the comment about our club becoming too big for the town is sadly coming to fruition.I fear you may be correct Den and Ewood will play host to a sub 20,000 for a cup semi-final and REGARDLESS of pricing that really shouldn't be.

[thenodrog]

If we (as a club) cannot stand the heat in the kitchen then just like in 1966 we will have to get out of it! Simple as that. Has nobody ever heard of the expression 'you have to pay for your pleasures'?

Whinge and pike all you want about top quality football being too expensive but I'll bet there are lots of people in and around Sheffield, Nottingham, Leeds and Wolverhampton that would love to have had our last 15 years worth of entertainment.

All the everlasting circular arguments about lowering admission prices, footballers ridiculous wages, falling attendances, declining public interest, sky tv, the changing of the towns population crap stewards, even worse pies etc etc being to blame, must all be viewed together with the context of Cummings comments on Burnley's missing hordes, PNE's habitual requirement of selling of their best players, Blackpools ongoing predicaments can only mean one thing imo..........THERE ARE TOO MANY CLUBS IN THIS AREA ATTEMPING TO BE FUNDED BY TOO FEW SUPPORTERS.

Football is a business and must be run as one. We can all pontificate away forever about tradition and history and replacement strips and names, we can foolishly pull the bedcovers over our heads and hope things will be OK in the morning, but in a business perspective and accepting the conditions existing in these early years of the 21st century there simply are too many suppliers of a finished product and not enough consumers providing enough demand for it!

No doubt the usual culprits will take the p1ss about merging clubs and I expect to read the usual childish tantrums about never ever going again if it happens etc etc. Do and say what you want but instead of hearing from so many learned adults all the moans and problems and gripes about admission prices would some of you for once try offering some other workable and feasible solutions?

If we want top level football at our small club then we have to contribute more for it per person than supporters of larger clubs, if not then we have to increase our fan base on an impossible scale. The solution is obvious and inevitable.

[joey_big_nose]

I am with the Drog on this one. We simply do not have the attendance base to last in the top division over the next decade. On the other hand I cannot see a merger happenin because the supporters will not stand for it. Plus I am not sure it has ever been done before within the league so there would be no exisiting framework for it to happen.

Eventually we will drop out of the top league only to enjoy periods in the premiership when we are blessed with a particulalry good manager or a number of good young players coming through the ranks.

I for one am not particularly horrified by that prospect, it is all part of supporting a relatively small club in terms of fans.

Nonetheless the work of the club, BRISA and the like to get more fans through the turnstiles is absolutley laudable and long may it continue! Also with Hughes at the helm and the continued support of the Walker trust means we are not in a crisis and won't be in one for a while. But I don't think anyones should kid themselves that one day we will cease to be financially competitive with the likes of Charlton, Birmingham CIty (I know, I said it...), Everton, Villa etc.

[philipl]

Ugh, we have got Scrooge on here.

The much maligned and vinjayed Walker Trust is the difference between us being an also-run second division outfit and where we are now.

If we continue haemoraging support at the rate of 2,000 per year we will slip down but that is the choice of the Blackburn public.

On the other hand, if we can get back to the level of support in 1998 (when we truly crap), we should be OK in the top flight for some good time to come.

[thenodrog]

Ugh, we have got Scrooge on here.

368918[/snapback]

I'm confused Philip. Who are you referring to as Scrooge? Is that to be Den or Paul? I know that both are whinging like hell about the cost and I know that it is excessive when taking the whole family, but I'll be prepared to bet that they both put more bunce into the Rovers coffers every year than you do. Sitting in a bar in Malta watching a game is every bit as damaging to the club as sitting in a bar in Blackburn imo. You are being more than a taj unfair and very unchristmassy imo.

[Paul]

I can't help feel my original post on this is being misinterpreted. I am not whinging about the excessive cost from a personal view as I can, just, still afford it, though without STs I could not. I was trying to make the point the cost for an average income family in the Blackburn area is out of reach for the coming sequence of games at this, and probably, other times of the year. Without STs the lowest cost for the forthcoming sequence would be £565 for our household. If I had to find that cash between now and the Utd PL game on February 1st we would not attend all the games. Wigan would be out and then I'd start to look closely at QPR, Sunderland, Portsmouth and Bolton as ones to miss.

If I'd forseen the Utd semis I would not be going to Wigan, and might have missed QPR, though I can't recall ever missing a home game for financial reasons. We HAVE to go to both Utd games. This isn't logical, we don't HAVE to other than in an emotional sense but we will go regardless of the cost. My question is when will the more well-off supporter start saying "No?"

I take thenodrog's, and others, point that if we want to watch top-class players we have to pay for it BUT this can only be maintained while fans can afford the cost. Once that bridge is crossed the clubs, especially so in Rovers case, face one of three choices:

Lancashire United

Relegation

Reduce costs and then prices

The first appears unacceptable to the majority. The second results in a spiral of decline leaving only the third choice. Players will have to be paid less throughout the PL.

Currently I can't imagine saying "No" but I have a feeling the time is approaching and the first time will not be the last.

[Yorick]

I take thenodrog's, and others, point that if we want to watch top-class players we have to pay for it BUT this can only be maintained while fans can afford the cost. Once that bridge is crossed the clubs, especially so in Rovers case, face one of three choices:

Lancashire United

Relegation

Reduce costs and then prices

The first appears unacceptable to the majority.

368950[/snapback]

From experience of reduced ticket prices they ALL appear unacceptable to the majority.

[EIEIEIO]

There is no reason on earth why rovers should'nt fill ewood in 9 out of 10 situations. We may only be a town but 30k is more than achievable. Rovers need to do the following:-

- Encourage those in outlying area like the Ribble Valley and Rossendale to come to games. Rovers are their local club too.

- The asian community needs to be actively encouraged to come to games. Maybe a talented asian player (see scouting for rovers thread) on the team sheet may pay for itself.

- The youngsters at the schools within the broader area need to be targeted. When the kids are invited they seem to be from Blackburn schools and not those of the surrounding towns. I'm sure that kids in Accrington, Rossendale and Clitheroe would relish the opportunity of watching the greatest league and players in the world.

- At Liverpool in the 50s, 60s and 70s they had a junior kop which i think we should adopt where kids have their own segregated area. At a cost of a couple of quid each kids could go and watch their idols at a greatly knocked down price with their mates. Thus getting more local kids off the streets, interested in football and more importantly interested in rovers. I think this is a gleaming idea for rovers.

All in all I believe that with some basic marketing and a bit of traveling to local schools rovers would not have a problem at all, then I'd have to winge about not being able to get a ticket.

[Claytons Left Boot]

I am with the Drog on this one. We simply do not have the attendance base to last in the top division over the next decade.

368911[/snapback]

At the start of season 1995-96 we sold 20,000 season tickets and there were say four or five thousand others who, fairly regularly, paid on the day.

When we played Crystal Palace the season we won the title there were 28,000 Rovers fans on that night.

For the play off final against Leicester we sold 31,000 tickets.

For the 2002 Worthington Cup final we sold our allocation of 30,000.

The latter two examples stretch us to the limit and around 30,000 can be seen as our potential fan base and who will attend for certain games. But not always at the same time.

We do therefore have the necessary fan base to keep us in the top flight for any length of time.

However, as everyone realises, the deserters have deserted, the bandwagon boys jumped ship when we stopped winning on a regular basis, and we have done to death the many other reasons for non attendance, but despite what many think, our fan base is out there.

The problem is getting the bulk of them back.....

Edited December 26, 2005 by Claytons Left Boot

[joey_big_nose]

We do therefore have the necessary fan base to keep us in the top flight for any length of time.

However, as everyone realises, the deserters have deserted, the bandwagon boys jumped ship when we stopped winning on a regular basis, and we have done to death the many other reasons for non attendance, but despite what many think, our fan base is out there.

The problem is getting the bulk of them back.....

369085[/snapback]

We have the neccesary fan base when we are performing exceedingly well. Unfortunately in football it is impossible to perform fantastically well all the time. We will have lean periods and the fans will walk away as they are now.

Indeed we are playing decent footie at the moment, being entertaining and have (i think) the cheapest season tickets in the league. We absolutely must maximise what we have and try to build on it, but we are swimming against a heavy current. There is an inevitability about relegation in the long term just in a purely economic sense. The same goes for Fulham and Wigan. The main reason all three of us are up in the upper reaches is financial support from businessmen.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Get down to Ewood and give the team the support it deserves on Wednesday...ticket office open 9:00 am prompt tomorrow.

Even Burnley had nearly 18,000 on today ffs!

Edited December 26, 2005 by SIMON GARNERS 194

[philipl]

I'm confused Philip.  Who are you referring to as Scrooge?  Is that to be Den or Paul?  I know that both are whinging like hell about the cost and I know that it is excessive when taking the whole family, but I'll be prepared to bet that they both put more bunce into the Rovers coffers every year than you do.  Sitting in a bar in Malta watching a game is every bit as damaging to the club as sitting in a bar in Blackburn imo.  You are being more than a taj unfair and very unchristmassy imo.

368938[/snapback]

Just reacting to the doom and gloom on Christmas Eve!

The club and supporters are caught in a cleft stick- the more cup games we win, the more we play until we eventually draw hard-up opponents like the Mancs who need every penny to save the Glazers from a disaster of their own making and have to charge higher (but not highest prices).

JBN got it right when he talked of rich men's support. If the Rovers Trust continue to support the club with £6m a year on average (equivalent to about 50% of Burnley's turn over), of which £3m is discretionary and £3m is automatic, plus favourable loans, then Rovers can survive in the top flight on crowds averaging a bit over 20,000 but getting back the people who went AWOL over the last three seasons is what we need if we are consistently to do better than survive. Perhaps two Manc semis and (fingers crossed), a trip to Cardiff might provide the spark which brings the missing people back.

Drog, I know its impossible arguing with you as your ideas are fixed in concrete. But you also ignore facts such as my sponsorship support of Rovers down the years pre-Jack. It obviously might not have occured to you that I am somewhere sunny less out of choice but for health reasons.

[Alan75]

Maybe this should be posted in the Dr Who topic, as we look into the future of the game.

The tradition of attending football games has long gone. In fact football is now just a televised internet game. With ever increasing wages and transfer fees, cost of admission soared beyond the reach of the average supporter. Only sponsored corporate boxes were filled on a regular basis, resulting in clubs amalgamating. The famous names that had founded the football league have long gone, now there were regional teams such as Lancashire United, Merseyside, Greater Manchester, North London, and North East Warriors.

With the ever increasing player contract fees, clubs consentrated on developing their own players, and with the assistance of science, clubs acquired momentoes of legendary players in order to obtain their d.n.a. for cloning them into a new generation of super teams.

Players developed by this means were later generated into holograms and prior to each game at the touch of a remote control; armchair supporters were able to select their squads by remote control. Each game was controlled by the armchair supporter who paid an annual subscription of £1000 to the TV channel for the privilege. The actual movement of players on the field of play, set against a blue background, are controlled by the supporters using joy stick and goals are scored by the number of text votes received, between commercial breaks. Each period of play is set at 5 minute intervals allowing for a 15 minutes commercial break.

In fact all events on the field of play are now controlled by a third eye and text. Action replays are shown from every angle and supporters are given 30 seconds to text a response. The 90 minute game has dissapeared and last until the next years subscription is due.

[thenodrog]

But you also ignore facts such as my sponsorship support of Rovers down the years pre-Jack. It obviously might not have occured to you that I am somewhere sunny less out of choice but for health reasons.

369129[/snapback]

Any details to assist me Philip? What form did your sponsorship take?

I do confess to know nothing of either but to imply that concerned and seriously committed supporters (whose resources ar not unlimited and who spend a significant part of their annual income supporting the excessive lifestyles of modern day footballers) are scrooge like is beyond the pale.

So you sponsored the Rovers in by-gone days? Good and thanks for that I'm sure, but in your chosen Dickensian terms the ghost of Chritmas past is completely irrelevant.... and in this case in the extreme! So please bguger off there's a good chap, cos us paupers in the cheap seats need to concentrate on the far more important and currently looming spectres of Christmas present and Christmas future.

[cletus]

***UPDATE***

After their 10th home game of the season (vs Man City), Wigan have increased their average attendance....

Rovers average attendance is 19905 (after 8 home games)

Wigan average attendance is 20734 (after 10 home games)

Rovers behind by an average of 829.

Total attendances are....

Rovers ... 159240

Wigan...207338

Rovers trail by 48098 (but have 2 games in hand)

Rovers next 3 home games are vs Sunderland, Pompey & Bolton.

Wigan`s next 3 homes are vs Rovers , WBA & Everton.

Edited December 28, 2005 by cletus

[philipl]

Any details to assist me Philip?  What form did your sponsorship take?

I do confess to know nothing of either but to imply that concerned and seriously committed supporters (whose resources ar not unlimited and who spend a significant part of their annual income supporting the excessive lifestyles of modern day footballers) are scrooge like is beyond the pale. 

So you sponsored the Rovers in by-gone days?  Good and thanks for that I'm sure, but in your chosen Dickensian terms the ghost of Chritmas past is completely irrelevant.... and in this case in the extreme!  So please bguger off there's a good chap, cos us paupers in the cheap seats need to concentrate on the far more important and currently looming spectres of Christmas present and Christmas future.   

369268[/snapback]

We had exactly this same argument about a year ago and I posted the details then.

Enjoy the rest of your Christmas break, give the lads a shout for me and don't let it get to you.

PS If you start chanting for United or come on Lancy you might get some strange looks.

[Mike Graham]

***UPDATE***

After their 10th home game of the season (vs Man City), Wigan have increased their average attendance....

Rovers  average attendance is 19905 (after 8 home games)

Wigan average attendance is 20734 (after 10 home games)

Rovers behind by an average of 829.

Total attendances are....

Rovers ...  159240

Wigan...207338

Rovers trail by 48098 (but have 2 games in hand)

Rovers    next 3 home games are vs Sunderland, Pompey & Bolton.

Wigan`s next 3 homes are vs Rovers  , WBA & Everton.

369297[/snapback]

we will struggle to have good gates against Sunderland, Pompey and Bolton.

The 1st two will be sub 20K and Bolton is usually only around 22k with us looking lucky to break 20k for the fixture this season.

sadly I would put my dosh on wigan except....we do have Manure , Pool, Arse and Chelsea to come.

[Yorick]

We've had it with the attendance imo. Averags take a lot of clawing back and we are half way through the season.

Edited December 28, 2005 by Yorick

[Hughesy]

How many half season tickets did we sell? Any news

I would think todays attendance might be over 20k as its just after xmas and quiet a few will of got tickets for gifts.

[Paul]

Not sure where to post this comment but here we go. I got my Utd tickets today, first phone call I was 38th in thee queue, second call a couple of hours later I was 15th and got served pretty quickly.

I'm delighted to say I got two extras without any trouble at all, six instead of four. I'd have expected it to be a hassle but no problem at all. Now if we can all convince a mate to come along.............

[jrabrfc]

Looks like Middlesbrough are having the same problems.......

http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/...1675696,00.html

[cletus]

The article on Boro having to "cut their cloth accordingly" is a frighteningly honest look at their situation, one which Rovers may have to take if attendances continue to fall.

[Guest Vinjay]

The article on Boro having to "cut their cloth accordingly" is a frighteningly honest look at their situation, one which Rovers    may have to take if attendances continue to fall.

370158[/snapback]

I thought Blackburn already made huge budget cuts? Wonder if that's why attendances are falling? Hmmm

[philipl]

The bet is safe- crowd of 20,000 at Wigan and Rovers took well over 5,000!

Gibson out! (before Vinjay says anything)

[cletus]

***UPDATE***

After a suprisingly low attendance for the game against us (Rovers sold out their allocation ) it looks like this:-

Rovers average league attendance is 19905 (after 8 homes)

Wigan`s average league attendance is 20725 (after 11 homes)

(Rovers behind by an average of 820)

Total league attendances are:-

Rovers ...159240

Wigan...227977

(Rovers behind by 68737, but have 3 games in hand)

The next 3 home league games for both clubs are:-

Rovers ...Portsmouth, Bolton & Man Ure (guarranteed 2 decent crowds)

Wigan ...WBA, Everton & Liverpool (2 biggies there)

After the next 3 homes by both teams, i predict it`ll be alot closer with even the mighty Rovers going into the lead.

Q...How many tickets are Bolton getting for the visit to Ewood? Anyone know?