[Archived] The Old Gate Debate

[thenodrog]

I personally am not shocked by the 13 quid per seat statistic, but then I am not sure it is the most relevant in a business that has high fixed costs, almost zero marginal costs and tons of spare capacity.

Average income per seat would be far more relevant in a business that had no spare capacity - such as Man Yoo - or one where the marginal costs of increasing sales were a factor.

My concern is that Rovers do not act like a $40 million turnover business in how they try to tackle the issue of fan-derived income. Any professional marketing outfit with access to the kind of customer database that BRFC has would have some inkling as to the following:

i) Existing customer "churn" - % of regular customers lost in a time period

ii) New customer retention rates - % of new customers who come a 2nd time, % of those who come a 3rd time and so on

iii) Optimal promotional strategy - EDLP vs. hi/lo

iv) Price elasticity - x% change in price results in y% change in sales.

v) From all of the above, a "value" to the club of a new customer and hence the level of investment sensible to put into attracting them - for example, satellite radio in the US invests $150 per new customer which, as they have a profit margin of 10%, comes from their belief that each new subscriber has a value of over $1,500. 

At the executional level, Rovers are not the first business to have to contend with how to target offers such that existing customers don't get pee'd off or that existing revenues aren't unduly compromised.  Retail banks spend a lot of time worrying about this.

The price route is either valid or it is not.  It is not at the moment because over half the fans have season tickets which have been sold on the premise of "best value."  But then Sky has changed the equation and the season ticket concept based solely on price is now largely redundant as being the main promotional tool.  It needs to be re-invented both to be more effective in its own right and also be less of a barrier to price-based promotional activity.

Why is there minimal added value for season ticket holders beyond price - a benefit easily eroded by Sky messing around with the playing schedule and also a millstone that hampers attracting new customers?

Starwood Hotels are pursuing a regular visitor strategy that offers exclusive access to events e.g. Victoria's Secret fashion shows in their W hotel chain. Regular visitors get less upset if some walk-in got a good price for the night as price is no longer the main benefit of being a Starwood Preferred Guest.

Why not have monthly meet the player sessions available only for season ticket holders; free upgrades to boxes/lounges - they're never full anyway; exclusive use of the shop (ha!) at certain times; 2 months head start on owning new design playing kits etc. etc. as the main benefit?

I for one refuse to accept that either the club have done all they can or that the Blackburn public are to blame.  Williams and Finn get renumerated at the level of a fairly large, professional company which for me means that they should be expected to have a sophistiocated approach to growing the business and also be accountable for results, no matter how challenging the circumstances.

In my corporate career I never got paid as much as they do, despite being on the board of a company with 6 times the turnover as BRFC, but I was expected to be employing best practice capabilities and to be wholly accountable for outcomes.

387442[/snapback]

Some good stuff there!

EiT for CE?

[thenodrog]

Quote Paul

Do you really think the commercial people are not busy on the phones trying to sell pacakges to local business?

Quote Thenodrog

I have a local business and yes I think I can recall one phone call about that........ in the 16 years since the JW revolution! How many calls have you had Paul?

Quote Paul

None but then my business has an 0161 number and I'm the only non-Utd or City fan.

Who cares? MU I expect are full up for Corporate Hospitality and quiteb possibly City too. They will be wildly expensive so how about an alternative at Ewood?

Why do you forget that Corporate hospitality is less dependent on actual support than ST sales!

My mate was a senior partner in a large Leeds based (offices elsewhere in the UK) legal company, they had corporate provision at Villa Park, Elland Road, Old Trafford and a 'table' in the prem suite at Ewood Park too. (Granted since he has left their employ I understand the table at Ewood has been curtailed BUT one thing he did say was that it was far too expensive anyway!)

Dont forget how many BRFC supporters work in Manchester Paul. Can we afford not to even consider marketing our club in such an affluent environment? I hardly think so! Crikey we could even consider providing exec travel facilities to bring em.

Why is all we talk about based around useless non profitmaking subjects like kids for a quid and attracting an Asian population that appeas to hold little affinity with BRFC?

Edited March 1, 2006 by thenodrog

[mhead]

What proof is there that Season Ticket holders are hacked off by Offers?

Why are Rovers always in a Lose/Lose situation? And are they.

Weren't you happy with that Full house the other year against Fulham(?) with kids for a quid?

If you are a season-ticket holder and can afford it (80%) the choice for 2006,2007,2008 is already made. Even if the Rovers Board mess it up....1964,1968,1970s,1989,1996.....we will still buy a season ticket or at least 8 to 10000 will. The key supporters are the 6to 10 year olds and the 18 to 22 year olds based in lancs or outside.

We want a fuller ground with more atmosphere and a greater Rovers pool of different rovers commitment...then all the marketing ploys so well put by Toronto can be used.

Going down to Blackburn Town Centre this aft...will I see any Rovers publicity?

I will report back.

[thenodrog]

Would you have bought a 6 game card at full face value in a fancy presentation box with maybe a signed team photo or something similar? 

387453[/snapback]

Yes but preferably somewhere between that and the half season ticket equivalent price.

The latest offers would make that look daft though.

[thenodrog]

I've mentioned this before but I do know quite a lot of people who work this rigid 4 day on 4 day off routine which means that they miss a fair few home games one way or another and I feel this is one of the reasons that attendances are dwindling and the pubs are filling.

Once a routine is broken it's difficult to re-introduce what was once an accepted habit.

[Jan]

I've mentioned this before but I do know quite a lot of people who work this rigid 4 day on 4 day off routine which means that they miss a fair few home games one way or another and I feel this is one of the reasons that attendances are dwindling and the pubs are filling. 

Once a routine is broken it's difficult to re-introduce what was once an accepted  habit.

387526[/snapback]

If they can get to a local pub for a home game they can get to the ground. That argument doesn't wash. (Does for away games or if you don't live locally)

[cletus]

I've mentioned this before but I do know quite a lot of people who work this rigid 4 day on 4 day off routine which means that they miss a fair few home games one way or another and I feel this is one of the reasons that attendances are dwindling and the pubs are filling. 

Once a routine is broken it's difficult to re-introduce what was once an accepted  habit.

387526[/snapback]

Jan....If they can get to a local pub for a home game they can get to the ground. That argument doesn't wash. (Does for away games or if you don't live locally)

Jan. I work the 4 on 4 off shift pattern (12hr shifts) There`s been a few occasions this year i couldn`t go to a match, because i`ve been working. There`s also been occasions when i`ve missed a night match because i finished my day shift at 7pm, drove home, had my tea & was too knackered to make the effort to get ready to traipse down to Ewood. Instead (& if the game was on telly) i`d watch the 2nd half in the pub...all cosy & warm, with a beer.....all for a couple of quid.

...the 4 on 4 off shift pattern, also makes buying a season ticket (for me) a no-go....as i`d be working on alot of matchdays.

[Paul]

SO WHATS THIS NEXT QUOTE ABOUT.....................? 

THAT SHOULD P1SS OFF MORE ST HOLDERS THAN ENOUGH! 

LOSE / LOSE SITUATION EH?

387512[/snapback]

Why? We, ST holders, have already been sent all of that package at the beginning of the season. The offer is no different now, other than the Kids for a Quid which is well established, than it was at the start of the season. The club are clearly highlighting it and using the Membership Scheme to:

Sign up members

Highlight the discount offer - and it isn't really a discount as you pay £10 to join

Gain data on people who are interested in Rovers

So if you are an ST holder you have had these benefits all season, for free, as ST holders are automatically members. How could that irritate the ST holders?

Looks more like the club being proactive to sell the Membership Scheme allied to tickets for lower interest games like Villa, Boro and Wigan.

[thenodrog]

If they can get to a local pub for a home game they can get to the ground.  That argument doesn't wash.  (Does for away games or if you don't live locally)

387578[/snapback]

Sorry Jan my mistake for you not understanding my post. I was actually referring to season ticket sales.

[blue phil]

  As has been said, we already get a ridiculously low average price per ticket (£13) so reducing prices isn't the answer. 

387349[/snapback]

That's a bit of a generalisation . If kids' prices were dramatically reduced , adults who would obviously have to accompany them , may well be tempted to take them more often . At present I would guess that there are many who don't go at all whereas they may go as a family unit if the prices were realistic .

My guess may be wrong but it's worth trying .

[krislu]

Just wondering, is the Jack Walker stand, lower central a good place to be seated? (good veiw, not a whole lot of empty seats around you)

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Catch 22,I fear the club is in a no win situation,even if they lower the prices there is NO guarantee the Blackburn public will respond.......that will only further the clubs financial losses and ability to compete with clubs on a similar level like Bolton,fulham,Charlton.

Edited March 2, 2006 by SIMON GARNERS 194

[philipl]

A very simple question.

Each Premiership game sees 20,000 paying £13 each on average yielding £260,000.

Who believes the Rovers' AVERAGE gate would rise to 30,000 if the average yield per seat were reduced to £8.50?

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

No chance Philipl,the season after we won the prem only saw us with an average of some 27,000.....the club has only ever averaged over 30,000 once in its entire history!

[blue phil]

A very simple question.

Each Premiership game sees 20,000 paying £13 each on average yielding £260,000.

Who believes the Rovers' AVERAGE gate would rise to 30,000 if the average yield per seat were reduced to £8.50?

387791[/snapback]

But balancing the books in the short term is not the whole point . The club has to be looking long term to guarantee survival - and I mean survival in the literal sense . If that means subsidising kids to an extent then it's an option worth considering even at a short term cost .

I have to say I'm pessimistic either way , but doing nothing and just seeing the gates go down a couple of thousand season after season is the worst option of them all .

(Apart from the Lancs UTD option that is .... )

[Paul]

Can I bring people's attention to the latest BRISA Newsletter which is now available to view online. The main focus is on the recent meetings with the club and the response from John Williams and Tom Finn to a series of questions from BRISA. The main topic is match day attendances!

The discussion opened up considerably and we were able to touch on issues and areas which BRISA had not raised for that meeting.

You can view the Newsletter at http://www.brisa.org.uk/brisanewsletter2.pdf

Please feel free to print, distribute or whatever to any fan you feel may be interested in this topic.

[Boz]

I’ve read the various posts, BRISA newsletter issue no. 2 and noted the Chairman’s remarks in the annual accounts concerning our falling attendances and wished to propose a couple of alternatives for consideration for next season. I’m sorry if I’ve gone over points already raised.

The major issue facing BRFC is increasing revenues to facility a reduction in the wage/revenue ratio, without affecting major wholesale price rises to the regular home support and also increasing volumes (attendances).

In light of the disappointing reduced gates in a season to date that has been so successful, a radical rethink to provide a solution should be considered, which all loyal supporters should look at dispassionately and with an open mind.

Increases to home ticket prices? Well on the whole most of the remaining fans will accept increases for success and entertainment at home, but this will not fill the empty seats. Obviously many have reacted to below average performances in the 2003/04 & 2004/05 seasons and voted with their feet. Once out of the habit of going to home matches every other week it’s easy find other things to occupy that time.

We must accept that demographically we have areas of deprivation that precludes potential home support and part of any solution should look at addressing this.

Increase visiting supporter’s prices? We must be one of the cheapest prices in the PL, as a result of our relatively lower priced home matchday tickets. Lets look at ways to increase revenues in this area in order that we can continue to discount home support prices. Possibly also enabling the club to offer more ways to encourage home support.

Is it true that we must offer the same priced tickets to visiting fans as a similar seat in the home area? E.g. a matchday seat in the lower tier B’burn end must be priced at the same price for a visiting ticket in the Darwen end lower tier.

Two possible alternatives:

1. Membership scheme. Make a really concerted effort to facilitate a successful scheme that encompasses a wide spread of membership. This will involve cheap and easy application, with a benefit of say a 25% discount on matchday prices. We could then sell matchday tickets at say, £40, that cost the members £30, with the result that visiting supporters matchday tickets are £40 with no discounts. Do BWFC have a scheme such as this which is successful?

2. Cheaper tickets in a specific area within the ground for home supporters. Linked to this, a pre-match cash turnstile. The obvious area is the B’burn end upper tier as this has least impact on the effect from mirror visiting matchday prices. Offered at a standard £20 fee, which for members equates to £15.

 This obviously impacts on the family stand which offers excellent value for families and was fairly successful initially. I would suggest that of late from my view for this season it would appear to be only 50% of capacity at best.

 Relocate family stand en bloc to another area that provides similar standard of facilities. I’d suggest the Jack Walker lower tier B’burn end side. Riverside stand attendees benefit from a side on view and a discounted price to Jack Walker stand, but obviously have inferior standard of facility.

 The negative impact of this is; a small loss of revenue (corresponding adult ticket is currently £34 as opposed to £32; displacement of ticket holders in JW lower tier; displeased affected ticket holders resulting from both sets of supporters who currently may be happy with their current seats.

 The positives would be; increased home support and demand that does heighten the overall product/experience and might provide an antidote to the current apathy; family stand members will obtain a better overall product adjoining the home bench and alongside the pitch; B’burn end upper tier may have the possibility to attract, perhaps let me say “a vocal element” that increases the home support volume.

Achieving this would require a degree of diplomacy from BRFC, but hopefully a positive response from the majority of supporters who can see that a problem exists may be forthcoming?

For the record I’m a season ticket holder in the Jack Walker lower tier Darwen End side.

[joey_big_nose]

I'm not sure about 1. It strikes me as being more than a little bit sneaky and if I was an away fan I would be more than a little cheesed off. I know when Utd did it to us there were a lot of complaints.

And 2. is a good idea but wouldn't it mean that Season Ticket holders, such as yourself, would end up paying more per game than the casual fan?

However, the recently promoted membership scheme and accosiated discounts suggest people are on your wavelength.

Edited March 3, 2006 by joey_big_nose

[stuwilky]

I'm not sure about 1. It strikes me as being more than a little bit sneaky and if I was an away fan I would be more than a little cheesed off. I know when Utd did it to us there were a lot of complaints.

I think it is a great idea, yes there were complaints when bolton and man utd did it, but none of them were upheld. An extra fiver from 8k mancs and scosuers every year is nigh on £100k.

Also reminds of the charlton scheme where the away fans are charged the same rate as charlton fans were charged, it has a negligible impact on the home fans because the covered end is 95% season ticket holders.

And 2. is a good idea but wouldn't it mean that Season Ticket holders, such as yourself, would end up paying more per game than the casual fan?

388136[/snapback]

I think the principle is a good idea, but perhaps not necessarily the amounts.

[Boz]

Indeed sneaky, at the expense of many visiting supporters who are used to the concept of £40 ticket prices. How many times have we balked at the cost of tickets at away grounds? Would the typical away fan know the actual price, because the home tickets would be advertised with the exact same face value but cost the member say 75% of that shown. Sneaky might also be considered shrewd business!

Yes a season ticket holder in the JW lower tier may pay more for their guaranteed regular seat in a prime part of the ground, as compared to the top tier of the B'burn end behind the goals. I'd agree that a balance must be found.

The amounts were chosen as merely round sum amounts for ease of examples.

Just some thoughts to try to generate some meaningful dialogue from us the supporters to rectify our attendance issue. I do appreciate that there are many reasons which have turned off many supporters; not least the overpaid prima donnas; the over exposure of the product on tv's whereby virtually every game can be viewed by many local pubs; tightening of spending in the entertainment sector whereby since last year people are watching what they spend.

[LeChuck]

An extra fiver from 8k mancs and scosuers every year is nigh on £100k.

388138[/snapback]

£100k? That's not worth it at all.

In the grand scheme of things, what does that buy us? A few months a fringe players contract? You throw Gresko and Amoruso into and suddently that offer looks measly.

I'd rather we keep our image as a club that other fans like to visit (at least from what I've heard from people I talk to) than a club who will screw people over for a meaningless amount of money.

£100k won't make the slightest bit of difference to how we perform in the league.

[BRFC4EVA]

Well Wigan's 'garanteed sell out' turned into a very disappointing crowd of 23,574. With the rest of Wigan's games being home games that will only bring their average crowd i still dont think that Gav's bet is lost!

[roversmum]

 Relocate family stand en bloc to another area that provides similar standard of facilities. I’d suggest the Jack Walker lower tier B’burn end side

Yes a season ticket holder in the JW lower tier may pay more for their guaranteed regular seat in a prime part of the ground

I'm quite happy with the JWL the way it is. It is also used by a number of disabled supporters and more mature fans who may well be inclined to discontinue their attendance if you start mucking about with it.

Edited March 7, 2006 by roversmum

[Eddie]

£100k?  That's not worth it at all.

In the grand scheme of things, what does that buy us? A few months a fringe players contract?  You throw Gresko and Amoruso into and suddently that offer looks measly.

I'd rather we keep our image as a club that other fans like to visit (at least from what I've heard from people I talk to) than a club who will screw people over for a meaningless amount of money.

£100k won't make the slightest bit of difference to how we perform in the league.

388197[/snapback]

Better than nothing isn't it?

[Paul]

 Relocate family stand en bloc to another area that provides similar standard of facilities.  I’d suggest the Jack Walker lower tier B’burn end side.  Riverside stand attendees benefit from a side on view and a discounted price to Jack Walker stand, but obviously have inferior standard of facility. 

388095[/snapback]

I think moving the FS is difficult for a number of reasons one of which is the current smoking policy. One reason why we don't use the JW Upper or the BBE is because the concourses wreak at half-time and it is really unpleasant to be in there. I don't know if the JW lower is smoking or non-smoking but I'd suggest a lot of families would be unhappy at being moved to a smoking area.

It will be interesting to see what effect recent legislation has on smoking in football stadia. The concourses serve food and alcohol so I'd presume it will have to be banned.