[Archived] The Old Gate Debate

[Glenn]

With regard to unbalanced charging due to membership schemes, I'm waiting for the next club to do this to us a I intend to obtain a membership for the club in question and then attempt to purchase a subsidized ticket in the away end with it.

I'm expecting the clubs to make it as hard as possible, but hopefully documenting and publicizing the anticipated objections will bring this underhand tactic more to peoples attention.

The balanced pricing rules was brought in for a reason (Bates didn't want ANY visiting fans at the bridge so threatend to price them out), I think it would be very wrong for Rovers to abuse the same loophole (and I'll have no qualms encouraging visiting fans to become members at Ewood).

[Paul]

Glenn is this happening already? If so can you say where as I'm very interested to know it. Someone suggested Utd fans paid less than us for the semi at OT if they were members?

[Glenn]

Glenn is this happening already? If so can you say where as I'm very interested to know it. Someone suggested Utd fans paid less than us for the semi at OT if they were members?

389015[/snapback]

Bolton have done it for a few seasons now and I've been told that both Man Utd and City do it.

[happygilmore]

With regard to unbalanced charging due to membership schemes, I'm waiting for the next club to do this to us a I intend to obtain a membership for the club in question and then attempt to purchase a subsidized ticket in the away end with it.

I'm expecting the clubs to make it as hard as possible, but hopefully documenting and publicizing the anticipated objections will bring this underhand tactic more to peoples attention.

The balanced pricing rules was brought in for a reason (Bates didn't want ANY visiting fans at the bridge so threatend to price them out), I think it would be very wrong for Rovers to abuse the same loophole (and I'll have no qualms encouraging visiting fans to become members at Ewood).

389012[/snapback]

Surely the total costs of purchasing a membership (which are only valid for a season) and a matchday ticket will make it more expensive than just purchasing a ticket.

[Paul]

I think Glenn's point is clubs are possibly creating membership schemes to boost income from away fans rather than benefit home fans.

If a club puts the price up to say £40 from £30 and announces a membership scheme where tickets are still at £30 the objective is obvious.

[Glenn]

I think Glenn's point is clubs are possibly creating membership schemes to boost income from away fans rather than benefit home fans.

If a club puts the price up to say £40 from £30 and announces a membership scheme where tickets are still at £30 the objective is obvious.

389035[/snapback]

However, it would seem I've fallen into the trap of believing what others tell me rather than checking out the facts myself.

I was told that Bolton's scheme was just £5 and they'd stiffed non-members (i.e. away fans) for an extra £15 last time we went. However a few minutes reserach has shown that memberships are in fact £30.

I'lll reserach the other clubs later.

[Boz]

I appreciate that there are many reasons why our gates are down, but just looking at what many consider the main factor, cost. What is the impact of failing to get missing home fans that may be cost sensitive to attend Ewood? Apathy has a tendency of spreading into many areas which might continue if not addressed.

Do we think that the main reason for the missing fans is due to cost? If we think the answer is yes and we want to do something about this by offering cheaper tickets to them, I would imagine we could not afford to achieve this without also having a negative impact on the overall matchday income, which is I would suppose completely unthinkable.

Hence any radical change must look at the affect this would have on the overall ticket pricing policy. Decreasing the cost of home matchday tickets in any other area of the ground excluding the upper B'burn end would impact on the matchday ticket price, we are compelled to charge the same amount to visiting supporters. If the average home fans attending in a season could be increased by only 3,000 at £15 per head, this could generate at least £855,000 of income. So it is rather more than stiffing Man U fans to generate £100,000.

I’d agree that it would be a major upheaval for regular supporters content with their seats. I think I did mention that hopefully regular supporters might be tolerant in view of the attendance problem and a degree of tact and diplomacy might be required, something which the powers that be down at Ewood can sometimes be lacking! I too am all right “Jack” (Roversmum) in the Jack Walker lower tier, but should we not be looking at the bigger picture?

As regards the smoking issue, I think we might find that the new legislation concerning smoking in pubs etc… is the tip of the iceberg, with employment law ultimately affecting employers such as BRFC banning smoking completely, in order to head off any resulting actions from employees who have worked in smoke filled areas. However could a portion of the concourse be sectioned off into a no smoking area?

[roversmum]

That may be so but no doubt many of the BBEnders would feel the same if it was touted that they should change from an area they feel comfortable in. The JWL(BBE in particular) has easy access for disabled supporters and is nearer the car park/buses. However, I should be the first to welcome the non-smoking edit in the concourse, which quite frankly is presently pretty bad for the non-smoker!

My plan is more far-reaching than that, I would like to see the Riverside developed to incorporate a disabled area with an indoor viewing area/'club' room (that can be used as a drop-in centre during the week) and the family area, also with access to a suite/room. Then perhaps the current family stand could house the area of seating which is not allocated where season ticket holders bringing casual supporters/friends etc can sit with them.

I don't want to go into all the stuff about cost and not filling the ground as it is because sooner rather than later the Riverside will need to be updated and then the question will come up do we just knock it down and leave an empty space? I think not.

Regarding costs, Boz, this has been discussed at great length and it actually comes to a point that to cut costs further is not a viable solution. The club is very careful to monitor that situation. I don't know if you have visited the website or been involved with BRISA but you may be interested to look at the work that has been done link here particularly in the attendance document, the forums and the newsletter dated 1st March.

[philipl]

There is an assumption that cost is the reason why people are not going to Rovers.

I was under the impression that prices rose by 10% or more when Rovers went up but that they have been held constant or risen in line with general inflation ever since. Is that correct?

If so, it is the perception of price rather than price itself which has damaged gates since the average was over 26,000 in 2001/2.

Or could it be that whilst everyone is blaming cost, it is in fact a cypher for other reasons that have dropped gates:

- worse traffic congestion and parking making going to Rovers a more time consuming less pleasant leisure occupation in an ever more leisure time constrained world

- the destruction of habituation through kick off times wandering around the clock and calendar

- the availability of pub screenings

My guess is that each of the above could well be accounting for loss of 2,000 regular attendees and that in reality is where the loss of attendance has come from.

Blaming the cost of going only carries weight if there has been a general impoverishment of the population of Blackburn with Darwen over the past four seasons. I know there have been job losses but I would be very interested to see a comparison between average gate prices and average income in the town over this period.

[stuwilky]

However, it would seem I've fallen into the trap of believing what others tell me rather than checking out the facts myself.

I was told that Bolton's scheme was just £5 and they'd stiffed non-members (i.e. away fans) for an extra £15 last time we went. However a few minutes reserach has shown that memberships are in fact £30.

I'lll reserach the other clubs later.

389062[/snapback]

The Bolton scheme costs £30 but it effectively freezes the price of each match at Category C prices. So saving £3 £4 and £10 on B, A, and A+ respectively.

http://www.bwfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Match...0,,1004,00.html

United's scheme costs £26 and saves a flat £5 on all ticket prices.

[cletus]

***GAV`S £50 BET UPDATE***

Last nights mugging at the JJB was watched by a surprisingly low crowd of 23574. Most clubs sell out when they play the Buccaneers at home for the 1st time...but Wigan failed to do so. Nevertheless, Wigan`s average gate still went up & cracked the 21k barrier for the 1st time since they played Chelski on the 1st day of the season. Here`s how it looks:-

Rovers average gate stands at 20242 after 13 home games.

Wigan`s average gate now stands at 21048 after 15 home games (up an average of 180)

(Rovers are an average of 806 behind)

Rovers total attendances stand at 263149

Wigan`s attendances now stand at 315726

(Rovers are 52577 behind...with 2 games in hand)

Both teams next 3 home games are:-

Rovers ...Villa, Boro & WIGAN

Wigan...West Ham, BIG CLUB & Villa

[Boz]

Yes I have noted BRISA's recent newsletter, I did mention this in my first comment on this subject, although I'll reserve judgement about the club actually monitoring this effectively!

I’ve read the various posts, BRISA newsletter issue no. 2 and noted the Chairman’s remarks in the annual accounts concerning our falling attendances and wished to propose a couple of alternatives for consideration for next season. I’m sorry if I’ve gone over points already raised.

As regards the assumption that cost was the only factor, I'd agree and did mention earlier that there are many reasons why we have missing home fans when we are currently serving up an excellent product. But as it does seem to be the major reason ex regulars give for no longer going, I thought it may be beneficial to consider what alternatives may be available to dispel the notion one way or the other that cost prohibits people attending.

Thought provoking for consideration to address this issue, or otherwise lets accept that our 30.000+ ground will only have a 50% home capacity with no chance of The Riverside ever being re-developed.

[BRFC4EVA]

There is an assumption that cost is the reason why people are not going to Rovers.

I was under the impression that prices rose by 10% or more when Rovers went up but that they have been held constant or risen in line with general inflation ever since. Is that correct?

If so, it is the perception of price rather than price itself which has damaged gates since the average was over 26,000 in 2001/2.

389092[/snapback]

I think it is more the long term price increases. As has been mentioned many times before, wages have increased by roughly 50% since 1990, whereas Ewood tickets have gone up from like £5 (i dont know the actual amount, just guessing) to around £28 (averaging out the 3 cat). So say we apply the wage increase to Rovers home matches this season and tickets were £12 for adults and £5 for kids, our average crowd would be much close 30k imo

Edited March 7, 2006 by BRFC4EVA

[thenodrog]

It will be interesting to see what effect recent legislation has on smoking in football stadia. The concourses serve food and alcohol so I'd presume it will have to be banned.

389008[/snapback]

The catering facilities at the front of the Riverside are in the open air Paul. I dont smoke but even I could not object to the authorities allowing smoking in the Riverside...... especially if it was restricted to one end of the stand. Smokers money is as good as anybody else's to BRFC so surely a perfectly legal solution could be found.

Mind you in our poncy nanny state I could even imagine em banning it at Portsmouth!

[CAPT KAYOS]

Personally, I think the general concept of 'Price' is being mis-interpreted.

Although there is alot that contributes - IMO I think the downward spiral is more to do with VFM and fans perception in that nowadays it costs too much to watch a game of football at Ewood regardless of what is advertised.

As mentioned in many discussions on here and in the BRISA letter re other fans replacing the 'missing ' fans - Blackburn do not have nor carry the 'hype' for the floating fan/supporter to just'pop' down as such on a whim.

The problem for our club is that alot of the 'ex loyal regulars' have now fell into the way of thinking of the above and the 'matchday experience/ritual' is lost, regaining it is not an overnight thing.

Advertise all we want (£15 tickets etc) - but alot of support has been lost to never return - the hardwork now and probably the success for our future (it has been mentioned numerous times) is getting the younger generation to strike up an affinity with the club and getting them hooked and building from there.

[cletus]

(it has been mentioned numerous times) is getting the younger generation to strike up an affinity with the club and getting them hooked and building from there.

i.e....cheap, affordable tickets!

Kids like going to Ewood, but it`s too expensive.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Like it or not we picked up quite a few fair weather fans when we were champions

but now they have long gone our support is probably reaching its 'natural' level.

[Paul]

The catering facilities at the front of the Riverside are in the open air Paul.  I dont smoke but even I could not object to the authorities allowing smoking in the Riverside...... especially if it was restricted to one end of the stand.  Smokers money is as good as anybody else's to BRFC so surely a perfectly legal solution could be found.

Mind you in our poncy nanny state I could even imagine em banning it at Portsmouth!

389109[/snapback]

Must admit I was thinking of the JW, BBE and DE when I made my comments. I imagine the Riverside would be OK for smokers as you say.

[Paul]

If so, it is the perception of price rather than price itself which has damaged gates since the average was over 26,000 in 2001/2.

Or could it be that whilst everyone is blaming cost, it is in fact a cypher for other reasons that have dropped gates:

- worse traffic congestion and parking making going to Rovers a more time consuming less pleasant leisure occupation in an ever more leisure time constrained world

- the destruction of habituation through kick off times wandering around the clock and calendar

- the availability of pub screenings

389092[/snapback]

Perception - yes I think that's correct, most people THINK it costs £25 - £30 to go to watch PL football. I suspect the missing 2-3000 you mention would BB Enders in the main so that is what it does cost them. Football is expensive if one is attending as a single adult, ST or not. The average cost though for a family is very different. If we sold out the entire ground to ST holders on the ratio of 1 x adult, 1 x child, 1 x young adult, 1 x senior citizen in each stand the income per seat, per match over the season is around £12. It's true I've done the sums.

Traffic - better than in the heady days of the championship season so I don't feel that is an issue. A lot depends on where one choses to park

Kick off times - yes, yes and yes. For many an ST is no longer wirth buying for this reason. Personally I'd like to see all games back to 3.00pm and a live Sky game at the same time.

Pubs - yes. Illegal broadcasting should be stopped and every outlet showing it should be prosecuted if they persist. It's blatantly illegal and hardly difficult to spot.

[Jan]

I think it is more the long term price increases. As has been mentioned many times before, wages have increased by roughly 50% since 1990, whereas Ewood tickets have gone up from like £5 (i dont know the actual amount, just guessing) to around £28 (averaging out the 3 cat). So say we apply the wage increase to Rovers home matches this season and tickets were £12 for adults and £5 for kids, our average crowd would be much close 30k imo

389108[/snapback]

18,000*28 =£504,000

30,000*12=£360,000

I know which one I'd rather have.

[roversmum]

18,000*28 =£504,000

30,000*12=£360,000

I know which one I'd rather have.

389155[/snapback]

The message is not getting through .................

[adopted scouser]

Illegal broadcasting should be stopped and every outlet showing it should be prosecuted if they persist. It's blatantly illegal and hardly difficult to spot.

389137[/snapback]

Stuck working in the Cotswolds, no access to a TV, just a PC.

Managed to download some weird viewing software, and found the Chelsea game via a Chinese website. Good picture but commentary in bloody chinese !

BRISA will never get the chippy owners in Blackburn down to Ewood.

[Billinge End Blue]

Paul

<Pubs - yes. Illegal broadcasting should be stopped and every outlet showing it should be prosecuted if they persist. It's blatantly illegal and hardly difficult to spot. >

The issue with pub screening is not solely one of the illegal satellite broadcasting adversely impacting home gates when shown. Even with legal Sky broadcasts, it is the habit it fosters and the ancillary attractions of the pub. I watched the Spurs game last Sunday in a capacity packed pub in the Revidge/Lammack/Pleckgate area - 70% of the fans in there were standing and many had copious drinks and enjoyed a quality halftime buffet in convivial and lively surroundings (it was superior to that swanky Saab advert that starts in the Mediterranean sports bar when the driver nips out for a spin through the empty streets ). In spite of the result, it was an active shared football supporting experience that rivalled that of attending an actual live game.

I suspect most who were there will be down at Ewood for the Villa home game this Saturday but some may be tempted to return and remain in the pub.

Another point I take issue with is the JW quote that the ticket office is our cash turnstile. It is not the same as paying on ground entry as the last minute fan has to queue up twice. By their potentially fickle nature, this is likely to put them off (or at least diminish their matchday experience). Convenience is all and to say a speedier service option is 'Conference-like' not 'Premiership' standard is a nonsense.

[bob fleming]

I think it is more the long term price increases. As has been mentioned many times before, wages have increased by roughly 50% since 1990, whereas Ewood tickets have gone up from like £5 (i dont know the actual amount, just guessing) to around £28 (averaging out the 3 cat).

389108[/snapback]

If I remember correctly, and I rarely do, this was the price for the Blackburn End only last April. That's an estimated increase on today's prices of 17,839.67% in 11 months

[thenodrog]

"18,000*28 =£504,000

30,000*12=£360,000

I know which one I'd rather have."

Deeeeyell Jan! I wonder why brfc4eva couldn't manage that simple calculation? Its not just him but loads on here suffer from the same problem. I blame comprehensive education personally.

Edited March 8, 2006 by thenodrog