[Archived] The Old Gate Debate

[ABBEY]

Please tell us you were taking the P1SS with the above theno!

390634[/snapback]

double the prices and youd be lucky to get 4k...........i wouldnt pay it!!!!!!!!!!

[Paul Mellelieu]

Mr Drog,

Your wish is my command

Income

Between 2000 and 2005 average household income in BandD rose by 38% to just under £26k

Disposable income

A more meaningful comparator is disposable household incomes or GFHI.

GFHI GFHI

1995 2003

Blackburn with Darwen

7,123 9,237 increase of 22%

North West

7,930 11,559 increase of 32%

United Kingdom

8,602 12,637 increase of 32%

We need someone with the ticket information for comparison.

Most importantly: In 2003 Blackburn with Darwen was in the unenviable position of having the smallest GDHI per head in the UK, which at £9,237 was 27% less than the national average

In the Indices of Deprivation 2004, Blackburn with Darwen was ranked at 34 out of 354 local authorities in England, where 1 was the most deprived area and 354 the least deprived. This rank was derived from the average deprivation score of the LSOAs in the local authority.

The borough has a lower percentage of employed people (55.1%) than England and Wales as a whole, 60.6%. This appears one of the lowest, ranking 336th in England and Wales (out of 376).

Edited March 14, 2006 by Paul McGarry

[thenodrog]

Good stuff macca. Now somebody with ticket price increases over the last 10 or so years please and we will really be getting somewhere.

I must say given the figures that you provided re: indices of deprivation, unemployment, coupled with changing demography of the population we wont ever again have much hope of increasing the supporter base in anything other than a short term blip based on the occasional succesful season.

Possibly time for more unpopular but inevitable lateral thinking? Lanky Utd maybe? or how about 'North West Nomads' eh?

Wait........ I've got it! Red Rose Rovers!

[stuwilky]

My Season Ticket was £299 in 1995/96.

It was £435 in 2004/05

45% increase.

[thenodrog]

Please tell us you were taking the P1SS with the above theno!

390634[/snapback]

I did say that I was employing lateral thinking SG.

But consider this (prob far from accurate guesstimation) ...if JW was still alive the rest of the supporters are unecessary! In half a dozen years he chucked in about 3 times more than the rest of us have contributed in total in 15!

I dare say Abramovitch could quite easily weld up the turnstiles at the Bridge and have his own personal Prem league club for himself and invited guests only.

double the prices and youd be lucky to get 4k...........i wouldnt pay it!!!!!!!!!!

390663[/snapback]

All that tells me in actuallity abbey is that you would simply be one of the first few thousand to fall by the wayside.

My research for the above was virtually none existent but yours is even less!!!!!!!!!! Think deeper into the subject and tell me how would you feel if the number of games were halved? Less wages, costs and overheads still, yet you would be paying exactly the same for a season ticket as you are now.

If that had been in place since the year dot and you had only ever known that situation I'd wager that you would be quite happily shelling out for your ST year in year out just the same.

Edited March 14, 2006 by thenodrog

[thenodrog]

Plus it would make the current pricing structure in JW upper central obsolete.

Doubt I could justify over a grand for a seat up there every close season.

390659[/snapback]

I dont really understand why people pay for the JW upper centre these days. Why not simply pay for the outer area and then move in 5 mins after KO. Nobody ever stops people doing this..........

........suprised no ones mentioned this on here yet tbh.

[blue phil]

I've been doing that for years , Drog . I don't even know where my season ticket seat is these days ....

[blue phil]

Oh and by the way , Abbey's right . Double the ticket prices and I reckon 4000 would be about right . My local landlord would appreciate my extra custom though....

[Paul Mellelieu]

To summarise then:

our catchment population has the lowest disposable income in English football

our Asian population is four times the national average

ticket prices have risen 10% higher than disposable income in ten years

we have the smallest population centre for any top flight club

we've crap for some time: this season excepted

[Anti Euro Smiths Fan]

Lateral thinking maybe .....but has anybody considered doubling the cost of a ST and settling to cater for just 10,000 fans?

Personally I'd be in favour of doing the exact opposite Theno. I'd halve the cost of ticket prices and recover any drop in revenue by trimming a bit from the huge wage bill. Getting one or two of the overpaid dollopers like Amoruso off the wage bill would be a start....

You sometimes hear managers say: "The crowd made all the difference" or "The full house at the ground gives us a big lift."

I'm not sure if Mark Hughes could say the same if there were only 10,000 at Ewood....

If it is true that the atmosphere/crowd is worth an extra couple of points at the end of the season, then it's worthwhile IMO to trim ticket prices.

[AggyBlue]

Personally I'd be in favour of doing the exact opposite Theno. I'd halve the cost of ticket prices and recover any drop in revenue by trimming a bit from the huge wage bill. Getting one or two of the overpaid dollopers like Amoruso off the wage bill would be a start....

390727[/snapback]

As a buyer of three season tickets, I have a feeling I may have lost out, money wise, this season due to all the cut priced deals offered throughout the season.

If I were to actually sit down, work it out and find that was to be the case then I'd be very tempted not to bother with them next season. If the club are going to continue to offer deals next season, it ought to be reflected in the cost of season tickets.

[AggyBlue]

To summarise then:

our catchment population has the lowest disposable income in English football

our Asian population is four times the national average

ticket prices have risen 10% higher than disposable income in ten years

we have the smallest population centre for any top flight club

we've crap for some time: this season excepted

390726[/snapback]

Excellent summary, therein lies the answers to our gate debate and there's not a lot the club can do about them.

[dave birch]

You may be right but the word "apathy" surely also extends to someone who has made a conscious decision to move to a location from where they will no longer be able to attend future games.

Not a criticism per se, just a fact.

It's odd how the most vociferous critics of the attendances / Blackburn Public(apart from SG  ) are generally the ones who are not  actually in the position where they have to make a choice as to whether to shell out season ticket money and/or make the effort to attend a game which is invariably televised anyway. 

It's the easiest thing in the world to sit back and criticise when it doesn't directly concern you.

390652[/snapback]

Rev, so the fact that we are miles away, precludes us from having an opinion?

My reply was to someone blaming businessmen for putting people off attending games. Given that there are approximately 10K empty seats, that statement was patently wrong.

Over the years, including my time downunder, the Rovers have made profit from me. So I do do a little bit for keeping S.S Rovers afloat.

[stuwilky]

As a buyer of three season tickets, I have a feeling I may have lost out, money wise, this season due to all the cut priced deals offered throughout the season.

If I were to actually sit down, work it out and find that was to be the case then I'd be very tempted not to bother with them next season. If the club are going to continue to offer deals next season, it ought to be reflected in the cost of season tickets.

390732[/snapback]

Aggy, where do you sit, and what category of ST do you buy?

[AggyBlue]

Aggy, where do you sit, and what category of ST do you buy?

390737[/snapback]

Are you going work it out for me?

BBE lower, 1 Adult, 1 Young Adult and 1 Junior

[Ozz]

Where is the old gate?

[AggyBlue]

Where is the old gate?

390739[/snapback]

At the bottom of my garden

[Tris]

Personally I'd be in favour of doing the exact opposite Theno. I'd halve the cost of ticket prices and recover any drop in revenue by trimming a bit from the huge wage bill. Getting one or two of the overpaid dollopers like Amoruso off the wage bill would be a start....

If it is true that the atmosphere/crowd is worth an extra couple of points at the end of the season, then it's worthwhile IMO to trim ticket prices.

390727[/snapback]

As a buyer of three season tickets, I have a feeling I may have lost out, money wise, this season due to all the cut priced deals offered throughout the season.

If I were to actually sit down, work it out and find that was to be the case then I'd be very tempted not to bother with them next season. If the club are going to continue to offer deals next season, it ought to be reflected in the cost of season tickets.

390732[/snapback]

There, in two nutshells, are some indications of the maze through which the Rovers have to navigate in order to keep top level football at Ewood, by maximising revenue, building (even retaining) the fan base in challenging circumstances, and making money available to sign players.

Let's deal with big Amo first. He made a massive contribution in the run which kept us up - whatever his faults. Injuries have destroyed his time at the club. The Premier League is littered with failed signings and always has been - the 20 managers can't all sign Rio Ferdinand for £27 million. I'd argue that in value for money terms Amo was the better investment given some of Rio's antics.

In order to compete Rovers will sign players like Amo. And Reid and Neill and Tugay and Pedersen and Friedel and Nelson and Dickov and Bellamy. Players who are not wanted elsewhere, and players who might make it (but might not), and players who are out of contract or have release clauses.

Right. The main point.

In order to produce the cash to even be able to get those sort of players, the Rovers NEED season ticket holders. The cash injection during the close season is vital as the club tries to prepare and improve for the season to come.

But everyone knows Ewood is never full, tickets are always available on a match by match basis. Hence you have this ridiculous catch 22 where people like Aggy bemoan the discounts - designed to boost regular attendance - which devalue his season tickets. At the same time you have others howling because Rovers aren't throwing the gates open for nowt to fill the empty seats - and tempt future ST holders.

In the middle of all this you have a few big mouthed attention seekers who ignore the demographics and the facts and just slag off the Rovers board and management - because they of course could do a much better job (from behond the keyboard), and it's cool to knock easy targets.

And to wrap up, an increasing number of pubs in the area take foreign feeds of Rovers home games - breaking the law, but cashing in on Rovers for the cost of a pirated viewing card.

Every suggestion on here will be read, many will have already been considered. The club is SO open at the highest level that many fans have been granted an audience with John Williams and / or Tom Finn - I'm not just talking about BRISA / Ewood Blues / Fans Forum / North Lancs / London Branch events or officers, I'm talking about individuals who go beyond tapping out a few lines on the internet - people who actually engage with the club in a serious manner - like writing letters (remember them??)

The Rovers are doing everything possible to improve crowds, revenue, league postition, performances, quality of players, results, entertainment, value for money, ease of access, etc etc etc. Sometimes it might not appear to be the case (thinking specifically of the so called club shop) - but if anyone cares enough about that they will end up learning what the issues / parallel financial rewards are and why the club can't do much to change the customer facing side just at the moment.

For clubs like ours, the PL is a hugely challenging environment in which to exist. I heard of an incident within West Brom recently when a member of the hospitality staff let slip an intention to watch the Saturday away game v Big Club in a pub showing an illegal broadcast.

A load of his colleagues immediately rounded on him and forced him to name the venue and immediately reported it. This is a club we are praising (like Charlton) for their "bussing in" scheme from surrounding areas - but they have clearly worked out that there's no point running free buses to the Hawthorns if boozers are robbing custom by breaking the law.

We need to have the same mentality. The population of our area is dwarfed by that in the West Midlands, and we have more clubs to compete with too. But the same people who post grand ideas on here for increasing revenue for the Rovers freely admit that they support the outlets which rob the club of revenue on home match days.

Of course it's not the only factor, but it's one of the few which we can influence. As individuals we won't change the fact that there are so many legitimate live games on domestic TV - and as Rovers need such games to bridge the revenue gap to better supported clubs we'd be fools to do so. Sky pays us the same as they pay Man U if we're both on the box - it's the only level playing field we've got in this league.

But as individuals we can shop local law breakers who are effectively stealing money from the ticket office tills. In rounded terms, just TWELVE people watching just ONE home game in an illegal pub wipes out the contribution of one Adult ST holder in the BBE. Over the season that's 19 adult STs, and that's still only 12 viewers in one pub.

By all means keep the big ideas flowing on here - the club will read and listen, and bodies like EB / BRISA/ FF etc will continue to challenge and contribute. But in this particular area individuals can make a difference by protecting the clubs interests and shopping pubs which are breaking the law.

[RevidgeBlue]

As a buyer of three season tickets, I have a feeling I may have lost out, money wise, this season due to all the cut priced deals offered throughout the season.

390732[/snapback]

The Club insist this is certainly NOT the case although judging from JW's comments over the past few seasons at the Fans Forum it appears that this is a commonly held perception amongst ST holders.

Without actually doing the maths I must admit that I am becoming increasingly concerned given that the average take is apparently only 13 quid per head AND most games appear to be available from 15 or 17 quid for adults.

IMO the Club need to do a lot more to emphasise and quantify the financial advantage of a ST (assuming there is one) to dispel these sort of doubts.

[philipl]

Great post by Tris- surely worthy of a Grooby.

A point about "businessmen".

Where does the club count the income from Executive Suite packages? In the attendance or commercial revenues. If the average income per head is only £13, I guess it must go in commercial which for the guy moaning about businessmen yields roughly the same income from Rovers as ALL the attendance money. Sky revenues go in a third pot.

[AggyBlue]

Hence you have this ridiculous catch 22 where people like Aggy bemoan the discounts

390756[/snapback]

No Tris, I'm not bemoaning discounts, I'm in agreement with them.

What I'm wondering is whether a season ticket is financially benificial with so many discounts, bearing in mind I pay for three seats.

[OJRovers]

I was talking about local pubs showing matches on foreign tv channels with my mate (bolton fan (!) ) but he says that in bolton a lot of the local pubs put on coaches to /from the Reebok.

Possibly if the club laid on some form of transport from various areas of blackburn this could reduce the umber of people watching home matches in the pub.

[Lee]

You've just said a lot of pubs put on coaches. NOT BWFC. This is probably more to do with them moving to an out of town site than anything else.

Aggy, how many reduced priced games have there been this season for Adults?

[thenodrog]

To summarise then:

our catchment population has the lowest disposable income in English football

our Asian population is four times the national average

ticket prices have risen 10% higher than disposable income in ten years

390726[/snapback]

Vote Labour eh? You know it makes sense!

[joey_big_nose]

Vote Labour eh?  You know it makes sense!

390784[/snapback]

At the risk of making this start to spill out of the area of tickets per se...

In the long run this trend will continue, irresepective of governing party, unless East Lancs can somehow attract long term investment.

I personally can't see how it can. Naturally (comparatively) high wages for UK citizens price us out of the international manufacturing trade, East Lancs is placed poorly for tertiary service industries and far from international banking centres. There is not much in the way of tourism, academics or primary resources either.

Its a problem that affect much of the rural/small town north of England, Wales and Scotland.

It seems to be global economic trends are shafting these areas more than the government. Short of major leftist reforms to redistribute wealth from the south to the north, which have their own draw backs, I am not sure how much any party can do.

All very sad.