[Archived] The Old Gate Debate

[Fife Rover]

It would do if it were based on fact. Evidence that Charlton rake in an extra 7 quid per seat than us??? And aren't they the club that put on free transport from deepest Kent?

Usual 'estimated' nonsense dressed up as gospel that we've come to expect from our Maltese accountant

I thought we were having a sensible discussion on here. Is there really any need for resorting to personal abuse?

[philipl]

I am working on the basis that John Williams was correct that the average ACTUAL yield per seat (after allowing for child, young adult and senior citizen discounts etc) is £13.

Charlton's ticketing pricing seemed pretty reasonable last time I went there by London standards but they don't seem to need to discount like Rovers do. A £7 premium would be in line with the difference in average income in that part of London and in Blackburn. Their bussing from Kent is all part of developing their fan base/hinterland as THE Kentish Premiership club. My guess is there is probably the best part of a million within Greater London for whom Charlton is currently the local Premiership club and another million in Kent.

Arsenal are expecting to take £2m per home Premiership game in gate money at the Emirates.

So EIT is weeing into a head on gale again.

[revolutionrock!]

I am working on the basis that John Williams was correct that the average ACTUAL yield per seat (after allowing for child, young adult and senior citizen discounts etc) is £13.

Charlton's ticketing pricing seemed pretty reasonable last time I went there by London standards but they don't seem to need to discount like Rovers do. A £7 premium would be in line with the difference in average income in that part of London and in Blackburn. Their bussing from Kent is all part of developing their fan base/hinterland as THE Kentish Premiership club. My guess is there is probably the best part of a million within Greater London for whom Charlton is currently the local Premiership club and another million in Kent.

Arsenal are expecting to take £2m per home Premiership game in gate money at the Emirates.

So EIT is weeing into a head on gale again.

if i remember man utd took 8 Million From 3 Games earlier in season.I think it was when they played celtic at home

[joey_big_nose]

I thought we were having a sensible discussion on here. Is there really any need for resorting to personal abuse?

Thats how this messageboard, and many others, goes. Its daft. Loads of people (although not all by any stretch of the imagination) getting their jollies by casually abusing people who they know nothing about. It's like a playground sometimes.

To answer TND- I'm not sure those figures really do occur to the average fan of Rovers.Obviously I realised the club took far far less than the big four, but the size of the difference is quite staggering. I'm not sure have neccessarily proved your pointthough as in actuality a few hundred thousand pounds lost through lower ticket prices is not actually going to make us less competitive in the transfer market due to the enormous size of the TV deal.

To answer EIT- while these are guesses, they are not unreasonable ones and while I don't doubt they are some large inaccuracies it does illustrate a huge divergent trend in terms of available revenue. I'm quite willing to read your own figures, and will look into it myself.

[American]

I thought we were having a sensible discussion on here. Is there really any need for resorting to personal abuse?

That's rich, considering how often you abuse other posters and call them idiots....

[Al]

Without factual back up assumption are just that. They may be reasonable but so would other numbers be reasonable. All forecasts are someone's opinion.

I too am an accountant and when the MD asks me 'What is two times two' I ask him what figure he has in mind before I give him an answer.

[Exiled in Toronto]

So EIT is weeing into a head on gale again.

9876 posts certainly counts as a head on gale; isn't there much else to do out there?

Given that no-one on here would have come even close to predicting the 13 quid seat yield, I fail to see why your 'estimates' should be given any credence at all, especially since you are as unbiased as anyone else on this board in your constant berating of the Blackburn public.

It would be interesting if we could somehow conceptually validate the 13 quid number. For that to be the AVERAGE number, then for everyone that pays 15 - which was the rock-bottom boro/Bolton price remember, then someone else pays 11. For everyone that pays 20 - and there seem to be quite a lot who do: TND boasts about paying that in the Riverside as evidence for how cheap it is - someone else pays 6! For an away fan who pay 30, three home fans pay 7.

The only way this could be true is if we have a completely disproportionate % of kids/OAP's to grown ups - which would actually tie in with my very infrequent observations when I attend. That being the case, the cost burden is falling on either the income of the parent(s), presumably along with their own tickets, or on OAP's out of their meagre pensions, making it cheap for neither group.

The fact is that we ARE a town team, and don't have Charltons 2 million fan base (thanks for the estimate there Philipl - I wonder where 1,995,000 of them were when they played at Upton Park), so all this bleating about they get more money than we do makes not a jot of difference. As I said earlier, since we have different circumstances, we must have a different strategy, which means we cannot and should not see 'competing' purely defined by income level. Especially since when we had the money in Souness's day, the vast majority of it was pee'd away on ridiculous fees and contracts so fat that no other club could be persuaded to take them over.

[only2garners]

I am working on the basis that John Williams was correct that the average ACTUAL yield per seat (after allowing for child, young adult and senior citizen discounts etc) is £13.

Charlton's ticketing pricing seemed pretty reasonable last time I went there by London standards but they don't seem to need to discount like Rovers do. A £7 premium would be in line with the difference in average income in that part of London and in Blackburn. Their bussing from Kent is all part of developing their fan base/hinterland as THE Kentish Premiership club. My guess is there is probably the best part of a million within Greater London for whom Charlton is currently the local Premiership club and another million in Kent.

Well Charlton charged £20 when Rovers where there and a quick look on their website shows tickets available at £20, with concessions at £15 and £10 for next Saturday's game against Middlesboro. Whilst I'm sure they can charge top prices for most London derbies and Man Utd they have the same problem as we do with other games. No doubt they are taking more than £13 a seat but no way will they be getting £20.

[roversmum]

What is all this nonsense? BRISA were categorically told that Rovers carefullly analyse revenue from every game - they have all the figures to hand and know the number of seats at which price etc. I don't understand why people are disputing this. Its not that difficult to do when you have all the data to work with.

[Paul]

I am working on the basis that John Williams was correct that the average ACTUAL yield per seat (after allowing for child, young adult and senior citizen discounts etc) is £13.

JW stated to BRISA the average revenue per seat over a season was £13.

As it happens spread over our four STs we pay £12.78. One very bored evening I did a quick calculation based on filling the whole ground with ST holders. For the sake of arguement I took the following as a typical group of four:

Adult

Junior

Senior

Young Adult

Checked the prices across each stand and assumed the ground was filled with 7500 groups of this type. The income worked out as below:

BBE / Darwen End income per stand £1,890,000

JW income £2,283,750

Riverside income £1,162,500

Total income £7,226,250

Per seat / per game £11.88

Now I'm not sure this is 100% accurate but it won't be far off. I don't need anyone to point out that I should get out more.

[den]

What is all this nonsense? BRISA were categorically told that Rovers carefullly analyse revenue from every game - they have all the figures to hand and know the number of seats at which price etc. I don't understand why people are disputing this. Its not that difficult to do when you have all the data to work with.

I have already quoted JW mum, so why do people not believe it - they must think either me, or him is lying?

[Fife Rover]

That's rich, considering how often you abuse other posters and call them idiots....

When have I called anyone an idiot? Examples please.

[den]

OK everyone, on topic please.

[philipl]

Charlton's adult season ticket prices go from £340 (£15 a game) to £580 (£27 a game).

The £20 tickets on sale for their home game against Boro are all in the corner blocks- the expensive tickets are sold out.

I don't think I am far wrong with my £20 per seat sold yield guestimate.

The population numbers I quoted are if anything an underestimate. They are competing with the other London clubs but they have a far bigger and much more afluent population to market to.

[Spansterkid]

Without appearing racist....

People of Pakistani origin do not go to watch football. In Blackburn there are 35,000 of asian origin, leaving around 50,000 people (men, women and kids) who may or may not choose to go to Ewood. That is less than the capacity of many Premiership grounds. Why then are we surprised at crowds averaging arount 17,000 before we include the away fans? I think it's a bloody good turnout. The fall away from previous years is quite simply fans from out of the area who got bored when we lost the glamour of the Dalglish/Walker days!

Stop moaning... start supporting. Crowds now are similar to any time Rovers have been in the top flight. Crowds in the 30,000 plus region were/are the rare exception to the 17,000-20,000 average that has always been Rovers mean attendence in the top flight.

[ABBEY]

BANDWAGONERS DESERTED ..

[roversmum]

I have already quoted JW mum, so why do people not believe it - they must think either me, or him is lying?

Exactly, Den, that is why it is so annoying

Probably that they can't read properly though. No doubt they will find a way of blaming JW for that as well :ph34r:

[only2garners]

Charlton's adult season ticket prices go from £340 (£15 a game) to £580 (£27 a game).

The £20 tickets on sale for their home game against Boro are all in the corner blocks- the expensive tickets are sold out.

I don't think I am far wrong with my £20 per seat sold yield guestimate.

The population numbers I quoted are if anything an underestimate. They are competing with the other London clubs but they have a far bigger and much more afluent population to market to.

Philip - where do all the concession prices come in then? there must be significant numbers of children, senior citizens and young adults there as well, all of whom get very significant discounts.

[ABBEY]

i have 1 adult ticket + 1 kiddies ticket so does that mean my average is cheap??

or do i stop my little lad coming because its keeping the "average " down when in fact it costs a small fortune .

[stuwilky]

It would do if it were based on fact. Evidence that Charlton rake in an extra 7 quid per seat than us??? And aren't they the club that put on free transport from deepest Kent?

Usual 'estimated' nonsense dressed up as gospel that we've come to expect from our Maltese accountant

Charlton match tickets are more expensive than ours, especially for "concessions" and they havnt run free transport for years, its £5 per seat from anywhere on route, and it makes a profit.

It would be interesting if we could somehow conceptually validate the 13 quid number.

You think John Williams is telling lies? Personally I bvelieve the figures add up, as previously demonstrated. ven my two adults and a kid averages £15 per head, per match.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Where did I say I didn't believe him? I was only trying to work out how it could be so, and the implications that come from it.

Since we must have a mountain of concessions to get down to 13 as an average, that surely points to a lower percentage of wage earners in our crowd than in most others. Therefore, as a % of disposable income, I don't think that on average Rovers is as cheap as is being made out. Therefore, it is naive for people to keep bleating on about the public not doing their bit. And therefore we will always have a lower gate income than most other prem clubs apart from Wigan, Pompey, PNE if they come up etc. Boo hoo hoo. Isn't life unfair.

Thanks to the massive disparity between Sky income and gate income, our total income deficit versus the likes of Charlton is a relatively small proportion of the total - probably mostly made up by us finishing higher, and them having to completely rebuild a ground from scratch with no sugar daddy signing all the cheques.

I just can't stand this victim mentality where fans of BRFC, of all people given the Walker era, are bleating on about being disadvantaged.

[Paul]

Since we must have a mountain of concessions to get down to 13 as an average, that surely points to a lower percentage of wage earners in our crowd than in most others. Therefore, as a % of disposable income, I don't think that on average Rovers is as cheap as is being made out. Therefore, it is naive for people to keep bleating on about the public not doing their bit. And therefore we will always have a lower gate income than most other prem clubs apart from Wigan, Pompey, PNE if they come up etc. Boo hoo hoo. Isn't life unfair.

I think much of this comes from Rovers strategy over the last ten or more years of looking to attract families and children. Our group of four was for many years one adult, three children, one full price ST and three at anything between £00 and £70 depending on age. Today it's one adult, two young adults, one junior. In total my kids have 41 seasons between them but have yet to pay full price.

I've posted in the past this policy has positive and negative sides, the effect on income is clear. Where we really lose out is the young people do become Rovers fans but often stop attending when they leave the area for uni. I feel not enough attention is given to this when considering the current attendance decline. I know several in this situation, one lad I took to every game for 12 seasons, went to uni and then stopped. It's a problem.

[ABBEY]

motd at it again after matt scored.."hes done it front of the tiny band of blackburn fans" .......why slag us off all the time,christ wigan ,chelsea ,city and even the geordies hardly brought anyone to ewood this season .Do they get it like us ?do they bollux..

[den]

An Everton fan was slagging our support this morning on talk sport. He said we were offered 6000 tickets and only took 600 fans.

Of course he didn't mention the open spaces in the home ares.

[stuwilky]

An Everton fan was slagging our support this morning on talk sport. He said we were offered 6000 tickets and only took 600 fans.

Of course he didn't mention the open spaces in the home ares.

We probably were offered 6000 tickets - 15% under FA cup rules.

To be fair to the bitters, it speaks volumes when they can only slag off the support - if I were them I'd be looking closer to home after a thrashing by a second string!