[Archived] Andy Taylor

[rover6]

Oh not again.

What do you mean when you say he deserved squad experience? Do you mean he was, or would have been good enough for the first team? Because if he wasn't, he shouldn't be in the squad. - and please don't reply with "neither was so and so".

Andy Taylor DESERVED squad experience because he was one of the best of our reserve side and had made good impacts at lower league clubs that suggested he had potential. Only at Huddersfield, where the team was struggling under Peter Jackson, did Taylor struggle a little - but he still contributed a number of assists in a dismally performing side. (At QPR he was only brought in to play one game or so).

Taylor was probably not ready for first team action but he deserved to be given a chance as Warnock's deputy to further his development technically but more importantly, confidence-wise. He deserved an opportunity to prove himself as a squad player.

My firm belief is that the Rovers first team management should be OBLIGED to give the best reserve players a chance with the firsts to mould them into squad players. We all know that the club does not have worldies bubbling away underneath - but we have raw promise and unless that talent is harnessed, worked on, actively promoted, it will fizzle away to stagnation. The management should earn their money by MAKING use of the elite amongst the reserve players, who are currently wasted resources.

The management persevere with new signings - why not youth players? Steven Reid was not good enough to be considered a good Prem player when he arrived, but the management persevered with him and MADE use of his talent. Same with Mokoena, same with Pedersen, same with Emerton (barring debut).

I also cite Alex Ferguson. Man U does not produce homegrown genii these days, but Ferguson has exploited reasonable talent in Darren Fletcher, John Curtis, Jonathan Greening, Phil Bardsley etc. These guys are clearly sub Man U standard but Ferguson has still given them a go and made use of them and they have contributed positively to Man U before being sold off.

WHat about Jay McEveley? Clearly sub Rovers standard but did he not contribute usefully to Rovers by being given a chance to develop his confidence with the firsts, not least of all in the money we attained for him?

The bottom line is, we do not have great youth players. However, we have some guys with decent promise but the cautious approach, paranoid about inexperience, the sort of approach that prefers a lumbering no hoper like Mokoena, is strangling their hopes. This is not just happening at Rovers but up and down the Premier league. I ask you, why the hell did Man City sell Ishmael Miller in preference to Caicedo and that Castillo? International caps> And if Sven had had his way, Joe Hart would probably be out on loan somewhere because he wanted to splash big on a spanking new keeper.

Edited May 2, 2008 by rover6

[den]

Andy Taylor DESERVED squad experience because he was one of the best of our reserve side and had made good impacts at lower league clubs that suggested he had potential.

Rover6, one more go from me - when you say he deserved squad experience, do you mean he should have played first team football?

If yes, it's because someone else like the "reasonable" Darren Fletcher made it at Old Trafford. Someone BTW, who has more talent in his right toe than Andy Taylor has overall.

[rover6]

Just to put my comments into context, my criticism of Hughes approach is not fundamental to his management. I accept that to give or to not give reasonable youth players an opportunity to establish themselves as squad players and then first teamers does not define the success of this club. It's not like suppressing the talents of a Damien Duff.

Rover6, one more go from me - when you say he deserved squad experience, do you mean he should have played first team football?

If yes, it's because someone else like the "reasonable" Darren Fletcher made it at Old Trafford. Someone BTW, who has more talent in his right toe than Andy Taylor has overall.

Andy Taylor got squad experience in that he travelled with the firsts. However, what I mean, is that he deserved to play the role that Bruno Berner is playing now. I.e Deputy to Warnock.

RE your second point, Darren Fletcher is undoubtedly more talented than Taylor. However, talent requirements at different clubs are relative. The requirements of a Man U squad player are far higher than the requirements of a Rovers squad player.

To put my argument in a hypothetical contemporary context - Hughes should not sign a 29 year old freebie Swiss former international right midfielder of dubious talent to back-up David Bentley. We should not go for squad padding. Either we sign a real deal top or very promising player or we give Alan Judge a chance. That's my stance.

Edited May 2, 2008 by rover6

[den]

Is Andy Taylor good enough for the first team?

[Parsonblue]

rover 6 how many times have you watched the Reserves over the past few years? You talk about our best young players being an 'elite' but in truth they are not very good. If our best young reserve full-back, which you imply that Taylor was, is worse than Bruno Berner, why should the manager pick him? Why should the manager select inferior players just because they have come through the Academy? We have a whole host of inferior players in the Academy and Reserves at the moment. Are you seriously suggesting that we get rid of the senior backup players and put all these youngsters in?

The manager has a duty to select the strongest side possible from the players he has available to him. My firm belief is that the management team should be OBLIGED to select the strongest team at all times and win matches, irrespective of where the players originate from.

This blind faith in some the of the youngsters suggests to me that you have seen very few of them in action. I'm intrigued to know who you consider to be our 'elite' young reserve players. Apart from Nielsen, Olsson and Judge, I can't think of any others who have played with any degree of consistency this season. Of these, Nielsen is not going to get the nod ahead of Brad or Jason Brown at the moment. Olsson has suffered from injury recently but has great promise while Judge, tricky little player that he is, is not going to get selected ahead of Roque, Jason, Benni or Matt at the moment.

[stuwilky]

6

tell us about how often you saw Andy Taylor, and perhaps what qualities he would bring to a top half Premiership club.

Any answer to this Rover6?

[CAPT KAYOS]

Judge, tricky little player that he is, is not going to get selected ahead of Roque, Jason, Benni or Matt at the moment.

Unlikely Parson, I thought he was a midfielder.

Also travelled with the first team to the Portsmouth game by all accounts

R6 - think you need to channel you argument to why we are not producing anybody of real talent.

[ABBEY]

1.r6 define deserved and why ?

2.when was the last time you saw the reserves or the said player?

3.how and why do you know better than mr hughes?

[Beta Ray Bill]

Only at Huddersfield, where the team was struggling under Peter Jackson, did Taylor struggle a little - but he still contributed a number of assists in a dismally performing side. (At QPR he was only brought in to play one game or so).

Strange how many Huddersfield fans I know thought he was one of the weaker players in a weak team.

If he was any good, he would have at least looked a class above the rest of the Terriers.

[Parsonblue]

Unlikely Parson, I thought he was a midfielder.

Also travelled with the first team to the Portsmouth game by all accounts

R6 - think you need to channel you argument to why we are not producing anybody of real talent.

His main position is midfield, but he has also been used in a more attacking role operating in and around the main striker. He has scored some good goals in recent weeks. I would like to see him go out on loan next season to see how he does at a higher level than the Reserves. He has great skill and an eye for goal but I'm not quite sure what his best position is. He's operated in wide positions, in the centre of midfield and playing off a main striker.

[92er]

What I think MH should be OBLIGED to do is to give more emphasis to improving the Youth set-up, after all, as I have posted elsewhere, this is the worst decade for the youth set-up's success in bringing players through to play in the top division.

If we could provide a successful system, it would save a great deal of money and would enable us as a club to progress, as well as helping to create some, admittedly limited,loyalty in a group of the players.

Man City produce players for their squad and I have read that Southampton have sold £45,000,000 of players in recent years.

Edited May 2, 2008 by 92er

[den]

What I think MH should be OBLIGED to do is to give more emphasis to improving the Youth set-up, after all, as I have posted elsewhere, this is the worst decade for the youth set-up's success in bringing players through to play in the top division.

If we could provide a successful system, it would save a great deal of money and would enable us as a club to progress, as well as helping to create some, admittedly limited,loyalty in a group of the players.

IIRC, the academy was seperated from the rest of the Ewood set-up a couple of seasons ago. The idea being that when managers are changed, it doesn't have a detrimental effect on the academy. This is meant to bring more stability to the youth system.

[92er]

IIRC, the academy was seperated from the rest of the Ewood set-up a couple of seasons ago. The idea being that when managers are changed, it doesn't have a detrimental effect on the academy. This is meant to bring more stability to the youth system.

I haven't seen any youth team game since approx 3 years ago when they beat Coventry in some final or other, but I do talk to people who go to youth and reserve games. The general consensus is that no-one of Premiership quality is coming through the system, which, considering the amount of money going into the system, is unacceptable. I, of course, cannot offer the answer, but it is alleged that instead of Bobby Downes conducting a report into why the system isn't working, he should be asked to leave.

At least then there might be players who deserve to move into the 1st team squad.

Edited May 2, 2008 by 92er

[Alan75]

No one appears to have developed from the accademy since Rob Kelly left in 2006.

[philipl]

No one appears to have developed from the accademy since Rob Kelly left in 2006.

That is a very prescient comment. It has been a roller coaster ride for Rob Kelly since leaving as well.

[rover6]

Apart from Nielsen, Olsson and Judge, I can't think of any others who have played with any degree of consistency this season. Of these, Nielsen is not going to get the nod ahead of Brad or Jason Brown at the moment. Olsson has suffered from injury recently but has great promise while Judge, tricky little player that he is, is not going to get selected ahead of Roque, Jason, Benni or Matt at the moment.

Parsonblue, I agree with everything you've said there.

Neilsen, Olsson, Judge ... you might agree to including Nolan. And I think Fielding should be included for his outstanding season with Wycombe.

None of these guys can expect to start a first team game, of course, that would be far-fetched. However, if they maintain their form next season, do you not think that, fitness permitting, Hughes should consider them as back-up to the first team?

Do you agree, then, that we should not sign experienced but mediocre players to back up the squad in the areas that the above 'elite' [in want of a better word] youth players play? Sure, if a talented player becomes available, Hughes would be right to sign him but a Bruno Berner who can play right wing? Or a Aaron Mokoena standard centre back?

No. Let the above provide back-up, unless real and clearly superior talent is available. That is the crux of my 'outrageous' argument.

Edited May 3, 2008 by rover6

[92er]

No one appears to have developed from the accademy since Rob Kelly left in 2006.

This might well be a factor, but it doesn't explain everything; despite his being here earlier in this decade, we still haven't produced a top division quality player in the 2000's.

[Parsonblue]

Parsonblue, I agree with everything you've said there.

Neilsen, Olsson, Judge ... you might agree to including Nolan. And I think Fielding should be included for his outstanding season with Wycombe.

None of these guys can expect to start a first team game, of course, that would be far-fetched. However, if they maintain their form next season, do you not think that, fitness permitting, Hughes should consider them as back-up to the first team?

Do you agree, then, that we should not sign experienced but mediocre players to back up the squad in the areas that the above 'elite' [in want of a better word] youth players play? Sure, if a talented player becomes available, Hughes would be right to sign him but a Bruno Berner who can play right wing? Or a Aaron Mokoena standard centre back?

No. Let the above provide back-up, unless real and clearly superior talent is available. That is the crux of my 'outrageous' argument.

Personally, I wouldn't include Nolan as a future first team player. He is being used as a right back in the reserves and I would certainly prefer Brett or Andre to fill that position ahead of him. Also, I don't see a future for Frank Fielding at the club as he would be, in my opinion, fourth choice 'keeper. After a season with Wycombe I feel sure he will want a permanent move away from Ewood Park. If you are asking me if I would use Berner and Mokoena in the first team ahead of Olsson, Nolan etc. I would say everytime. I've seen all of Berner's games, both for first team and reserves and I honestly feel he is the better player to act as backup to Warnock. In truth, I feel he could have been use more in away games on the left of midfield instead of Pedersen. Mokoena has no obvious challenger in the Reserves - he is head and shoulders above the likes of O'Keefe, Hodge or the departed Keita.

Personally, I fully agree with Hughes when he opts to sign senior players with international experience to provide backup for the senior team rather than rely on youngsters who may or may not make the grade. Clubs like the Rovers can't afford to allow youngsters to learn their trade in the first team.

[rover6]

I'm surprised that you see no future for Fielding. I'm think he'll probably go with Wycombe for another season but the club rate him highly, so it would take something extraordinary to let him.

You say that Rovers cannot afford to allow youngsters to learn their trade with the first team. That, imo, is seriously short-sighted, backward even, thinking. Barring the exceptional talents - the Rooneys - the mere mortal youth players suffer nerves when making their debut and the next few games. This hinders their performance.

So if you are not going to let youth players have cameo appearances to overcome their nerves and assert their self-confidence, then there is no hope that any will make it through. You are effectively arguing for the academy and reserve team to be disbanded and any gaps in the first team to be filled by short-term Bosman deals in the Sam Allardyce style of multinational, agent-infested, short-termist management.

If we apply your philosophy to international football, you are advocating that England stick with the experienced - Becks, Lampard, Gerrard....even Heskey. And players like Bentley should be left out. After all, the inexperienced will need to 'learn their trade' and grow accustomed to international football with competitive games and England can't afford that. Different circumstances but same idea.

Edited May 3, 2008 by rover6

[Silencio]

From what I gather Rover6 you don't actually go to the reserves, is this true? If so, your in the same position as me...

My perspective is the partially the same as yours, I'd like us to be giving youth a chance. However, the fact that virtually none of our players go to Championship or even League 1 clubs on loan suggests that they aren't good enough now and/or don't even have the potential to do a job at our level.

Mokoena ain't great but he HAS had some important/productive and, sometimes, sustained periods in the first team. His first season was excellent in a 4-5-1 and the last 3rd of last season was good too. None of out youngsters are as good as him. That's why he has international caps.

It would be nice to see Judge or Olssen given a go because Olssen has looked good and Judge has done well for the reserves. Nolan hasn't done well on loan and has lost his way. This has happened to many of our youngsters who were destined for big things: Fitzgerald, Donnelly, Watt, Hamilton, Keita...

The common denominator in the last 8 years of failure is Bobby Downes. I'd say it's him who need to be reviewed rather than sanctioned to do a review. He' s hardly gonna sack himself...

It's sad that JW had the vision to provide such facilities but the staff have not done the job. Hughes' reign has little to do with that but it's his and John Williams' obligation to realise that now and do something about it. It seems as if they are doing that but we won't see the fruits of that for a while. In the meantime we probably won't see many of the youngsters we have given a go. It seems they aren't good enough...

[stuwilky]

6

tell us about how often you saw Andy Taylor, and perhaps what qualities he would bring to a top half Premiership club.

SO YOU HAVE NO ANSWER TO THIS 6.

PERHAPS THIS IS WHY MR TAYLOR IS PLYING HIS TRADE IN THE LOWER REACHES OF PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL?

Perhaps you should be asking why the academy isnt producing talent of the required calibre, rather that campaigning for medicore sub standard players to be given first team appearances.

But of course, you dont actually know how good any of them are, as you dont watch them. Ever.

[philipl]

Just to up the temperature a bit more, here is Kevin Pezzoni scoring for Cologne as they press for promotion to the Bundesliga.

I guess he proves both sides right- he is undoubtedly a talent but given the way he turns, he would have been disposessed before he got to 90 degrees round in his pirouette if he tried that in the EPL, never mind having time to get an unclosed down lob/shot away.

I understand the Rovers received transfer fees and have sell-on clauses for both Pezzoni and Keitel.

[Nate]

I've just noticed that Cercle are fourth in Belgium. Does anybody know if there is any talent at the club that may interest Rovers?

[den]

SO YOU HAVE NO ANSWER TO THIS 6.

or this Rover6

Is Andy Taylor good enough for the rovers first team?

[Parsonblue]

rover6 you suggest that Fielding has a future at the club but do you honestly think that he will want to return and be the number 4 'keeper? Brown and Neilsen are both ahead of him in the pecking order - and rightly so because both look better 'keepers. Both of these were signed for fees by Hughes because he rates them and he obviously had concerns about the younger 'keepers at the club.

I still maintain that selecting young players, ahead of better and more seasoned professionals, just to give them experience is wrong. It seems to me that Hughes has got the mix just about right. He has experienced back-up players like Zurab, Berner and Mokoena while at the same time he is able to bring in younger players like Olsson, as happened yesterday, when the opportunity arises.

Are you really suggesting that we put players into the first team who are inferior to the players who are already there, simply because they have come through the Academy? Do you really believe that Hodge, O'Keefe or Keita are better players than Mokoena? If you do, then I can only assume that you have never seen these youngsters kick a ball!