[Archived] Andy Taylor

[Hughesy]

I think of our current crop of youth team the only ones close are Kane, Treacy, Olsson and Peter.

The fact that none of them are out on loan at top championship clubs says alot about the quality of some of our youth players. Looked at Campbell for United, top scorer at Promotion chasing Hull.

[rover6]

SO YOU HAVE NO ANSWER TO THIS 6.

PERHAPS THIS IS WHY MR TAYLOR IS PLYING HIS TRADE IN THE LOWER REACHES OF PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL?

Perhaps you should be asking why the academy isnt producing talent of the required calibre, rather that campaigning for medicore sub standard players to be given first team appearances.

But of course, you dont actually know how good any of them are, as you dont watch them. Ever.

We're going around in circles. But because you and Den have asked again, I will reiterate my argument as concisely as possible. It seems impossible that we can agree.

I do not believe that Taylor should be playing for the first team now ahead of Warnock. I do not believe that he is a great Premiership player overlooked.

What I do believe, is that given the chance to make appearances as Martin Olsson is doing now, he would have developed his confidence and consequently his game would have improved and we COULD (no guarentees whatsoever) have had a useful, homegrown, promising squad player left back on our hands. Young players have time and time again shown that concerted exposure at first team level can transform them - mainly through immense confidence boosts. Matt Derbyshire was a lightweight plucky forward who was rated alongside Jemal Johnson and not a soul was perceptive (brave) enough to call for his promotion. However, given a surprise game or two with the firsts, a goal, and he developed rapidly to being the useful squad player he is now.

This transformation does not happen overnight and is not guarenteed for every player. However, the best reserve players should be identified and given the chance to taste the "elixir of confidence" (in want of a more pompous/dubious phrase) that is first team action. This has to be done gradually but consistently, so as not to expose them when their nerves are most frayed.

And it is not just youth players. Look at Aaron Mokoena. He arrived playing like Darren Peacock. But with games, sub appearances, a cushy role in a catenaccio side, his confidence grew and his game improved (albeit still inadequate imo). His confidence grew so much - that he showed signs of delusion in expressing his displeasure at not getting more starts!

To give a few youth players gradual exposure, as Hughes is doing with Olsson, does not come at a great cost. If used in the correct circumstances playing them can be beneficial to the side. [Obviously, it is impractical to give these opportunities that every player in the reserve side]. The consequences can incredibly beneficial for the club if the player grows in confidence like Derbyshire did. And even if he doesn't impress greatly like McEveley and Jemal Johnson, the fact he has Prem experience will increase his sale value.

Finally, I admit to hardly having seen Taylor play (a few times playing for ENgland U19s). But, as ridiculous as it may seem, that's not important to my argument. What is important is that Taylor was rated by Hughes to the extent of receiving a extended contract. He was rated by Glynn Hodges to the extent he was made captain of the reserves with whom he played consistently well for a number of seasons. He was rated by Dario Gradi to the extent they wanted to sign him for a season loan. He impressed Simon Grayson at Blackpool who was keen to purchase him. He had promise and was one of the best reserve players. This fact should've been enough for him to get a chance to back-up the firsts - unless Hughes was going to sign a genuinely superior and valuable left back - but that Bruno Berner is not.

Edited May 4, 2008 by rover6

[den]

What I do believe, is that given the chance to make appearances as Martin Olsson is doing now, he would have developed his confidence and consequently his game would have improved and we COULD (no guarentees whatsoever) have had a useful, homegrown, promising squad player left back on our hands.

Where all your arguments fall down Rover6, is that you apply that logic to all the academy lads. Why pick Andy Taylor out now, - because he's just won the Tranmere Rovers young player of the year. - Not POTY, because he isn't even Tranmere Rovers best player, - but young POTY! Not exactly compulsive evidence of him being good enough to play at Premier league level.

The real truth that you ignore, is that Andy Taylor isn't good enough to play against the best teams in the land. One more point, you say that he might have been a better player if he'd been given a few appearances for rovers first team. Well he's getting first team football at Tranmere, so has he improved enough to get a transfer into a Prem club? Obviously not, why not?

[ABBEY]

.

I do not believe that Taylor should be playing for the first team now ahead of Warnock. I do not believe that he is a great Premiership player overlooked.

Finally, I admit to hardly having seen Taylor play (a few times playing for ENgland U19s). But, as ridiculous as it may seem, that's not important to my argument.

WOWOWWOWOWOWOW so its not important to see someone before making a judgement ....not kidding ive nearly peed in my boxers reading this.

Imagine Gordon Ramsey saying Deans Cafe was crap without even going...man ive tears rolling down my face

Edited May 5, 2008 by ABBEY

[Paul Mellelieu]

On brave and perceptive (your words not mine) Rover6 you are getting yourself in a fix.

You patiently champion virtually any player who's under 21, and castigate the whole club (and football in general) for passing over these wonderful young players (that you've never seen play). If only, if only, they'd listen eh Rover6? And now that you can't convince a single soul that these young lads are good enough for the first team, you say that they should, maybe, possibly, be given a few minutes, perhaps, now and again....

BTw I saw that McEveley was scored two points out of ten in the Observer's fan's voice section .

[ABBEY]

how many did paul sturrock get paul hahahha

[rover_groo]

The management persevere with new signings - why not youth players? Steven Reid was not good enough to be considered a good Prem player when he arrived, but the management persevered with him and MADE use of his talent. Same with Mokoena, same with Pedersen, same with Emerton (barring debut).

Absolute nonesence about Reid mate?

He wasn't good enough to be considered a good Prem player?

Who's eyes was that? Yours?

Steven Reid was brought to the club as the potential was seen by Mr Souness and his suitors. Lucas-h Neill also recommended Reid to Blackburn as he was an ex-colleague of his at Millwall. His early part of his career was plagued by injuries and when Hughes took over from Souness, then he has started to play him in the centre of midfield. Not once was Reid ever consider not good enough to be a Prem Player and was never surplus to requirements at Rovers, however perhaps it might have been questioned about his ability to stay injury free!!

Rover6, for a man who has had the ability to talk a lot of sense, you certainly loosing it your posts in this thread.

I'm nearly lost for words with what you've basically said.

rover 6 how many times have you watched the Reserves over the past few years? You talk about our best young players being an 'elite' but in truth they are not very good. If our best young reserve full-back, which you imply that Taylor was, is worse than Bruno Berner, why should the manager pick him?

The manager has a duty to select the strongest side possible from the players he has available to him. My firm belief is that the management team should be OBLIGED to select the strongest team at all times and win matches, irrespective of where the players originate from.

I have to laugh at what Parsons has picked up from Rover6 and agree with all that he says.

With one persons view on a player, stating that this player has been overlooked is quite a bit far off the mark. All players, including youth and no matter what senior team he is in at Brockhall, will be known by Mark Hughes. He has been at youth and reserve games and has accurate feedback from his colleagues about which ones are performing and the ones who aren't, so you just can't state that these players have been overlooked.

After speaking to quite a few players, both from senior and youth squads, they would certify that Mr Hughes knows exactly what is going on with each player, make no bones about that!!

Unlikely Parson, I thought he was a midfielder.

Also travelled with the first team to the Portsmouth game by all accounts. R6 - think you need to channel you argument to why we are not producing anybody of real talent.

CK, as Parson later stated that Judge has played in a few different roles, namely one as a striker and a few different positions across the midfield.

He is a decent asset and could be useful to throw on upfront if injuries, form played a part at some stage. But that isn't likely to happen for a while, but is an option as a striker somewhere along the line.

Neilsen, Olsson, Judge ... you might agree to including Nolan. And I think Fielding should be included for his outstanding season with Wycombe.

I wouldn't be including Nolan just yet, as there are quite a few ahead of him.

For instance, for right-back we have, Reidy, Emo, Andre and Tony Kane. So to think that Eddie could be one of the players to break through to the first team squad, then he'll need to have one heck of a start to the campaign with reserves.

[DanLad]

Just to up the temperature a bit more, here is Kevin Pezzoni scoring for Cologne as they press for promotion to the Bundesliga.

I guess he proves both sides right- he is undoubtedly a talent but given the way he turns, he would have been disposessed before he got to 90 degrees round in his pirouette if he tried that in the EPL, never mind having time to get an unclosed down lob/shot away.

I understand the Rovers received transfer fees and have sell-on clauses for both Pezzoni and Keitel.

I'm not getting involved in any argument involving 6. This seems a long standing matter and I don't think anyone is going to change anyone else's views!

Pezzoni looks like the first player in a while that I've seen from the youth system that actually looks like a grown bloke who could handle the Prem. That said I've seen milk turn quicker!

Why did he leave?

[philipl]

From what I've read, Pezzoni's innate lack of speed of action was something no end of coaching/training was going to resolve drawing the conclusion he couldn't make it in the Prem. So the club facilitated getting a good home for his career to develop elsewhere whilst he still has the cachet of that German u-21 appearance.

Even informed people who are uncomfortable with what is happening at the Academy concurred with this decision.

With Keita, a good offer came at a time when there was no certainty he would make it and the player was obviously very interested by Hamburg but I don't know if there is the same belief it was such a correct decision- more a balance of probabilities.

[rover6]

Philip, what you say about Pezzoni being slow is true. However, you are going into spin overdrive after that.

Rovers didn't get rid of him because they thought he was crap - why don't we get rid of half (more) of the current reserve and academy side because many are worse and not standard for their U21 national sides.

Pezzoni took a few days unauthorized holiday in Germany and this severely annoyed someone near the top (Downes/Hodges perhaps) because after that he was demoted for much of the time to playing with the U18s. So we had the situation where Pezzoni was called to the German U21 side and yet at Rovers he was playing with 16/17 year olds.

Keita also fell out with management - he was stripped of the U18 side captaincy and dropped from the side. This was, allegedly, after he finally refused to take painkilling injections to play after taking them for a few weeks. He was also peeved that he wasn't even allowed to train with the reserve side despite being one of the better U18 players.

The management issues with Keita and Pezzoni are not directly related to my argument about the best reserve players getting chances by right, I should add. So please no-one start screaming at me for arguing that U18 players should be starting for the Firsts.

Absolute nonesence about Reid mate?

He wasn't good enough to be considered a good Prem player?

Who's eyes was that? Yours?

Steven Reid was brought to the club as the potential was seen by Mr Souness and his suitors. Lucas-h Neill also recommended Reid to Blackburn as he was an ex-colleague of his at Millwall. His early part of his career was plagued by injuries and when Hughes took over from Souness, then he has started to play him in the centre of midfield. Not once was Reid ever consider not good enough to be a Prem Player and was never surplus to requirements at Rovers, however perhaps it might have been questioned about his ability to stay injury free!!

Rover6, for a man who has had the ability to talk a lot of sense, you certainly loosing it your posts in this thread.

I'm nearly lost for words with what you've basically said.

Someone, please, put your disdain for me aside for a second and support me in my claim that Steven Reid was goddam awful when he first arrived at the club. He was playing on the wings and he displayed zero technical ability, zero skill, zero crossing ability and many were calling for him to get the chop.

Edited May 6, 2008 by rover6

[den]

Philip, what you say about Pezzoni being slow is true. However, you are going into spin overdrive after that.

Rovers didn't get rid of him because they thought he was crap - why don't we get rid of half (more) of the current reserve and academy side because many are worse and not standard for their U21 national sides.

Pezzoni took a few days unauthorized holiday in Germany and this severely annoyed someone near the top (Downes/Hodges perhaps) because after that he was demoted for much of the time to playing with the U18s. So we had the situation where Pezzoni was called to the German U21 side and yet at Rovers he was playing with 16/17 year olds.

Keita also fell out with management - he was stripped of the U18 side captaincy and dropped from the side. This was, allegedly, after he finally refused to take painkilling injections to play after taking them for a few weeks. He was also peeved that he wasn't even allowed to train with the reserve side despite being one of the better U18 players.

The management issues with Keita and Pezzoni are not directly related to my argument about the best reserve players getting chances by right, I should add. So please no-one start screaming at me for arguing that U18 players should be starting for the Firsts.

Whenever I saw Kevin Pezzoni play, he didn't strike me as being one that was destined to make it. Yes he was slow, but he wasn't that clever as a footballer either. I saw many, many youngsters with more promise than Pezzoni fall by the wayside. What would I know though, I only saw him play.

[Jan]

Rover6, I'll agree with you. The Steven Reid of much of his first 2 seasons with us was rubbish. He then had a short period where he looked Premiership class, then got injured and hasn't really got back to the required level as yet.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Which kinda blows your theory out of the water then rsix. The club does give young players a chance, just not the ones you haven't seen play.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Rover6, I'll agree with you. The Steven Reid of much of his first 2 seasons with us was rubbish. He then had a short period where he looked Premiership class, then got injured and hasn't really got back to the required level as yet.

I'll second that.

In football, as in the workplace in general, people are rarely fully equipped to immediatley perform to full standard at the next level up. For every player we have in our team, somone at some time pushed them up a level when they weren't quite ready for it. Both Duff and Dunn were little boys lost in their early games - both played in a relegation team and were not snapped up by eager buyers remember.

While I have no opinion on specific individuals, I find the counter-argument to Rover6, that we can't afford to blood youngsters unless they are already good enough to displace Santa Cruz to be ridiculous as it would condemn us to a future of having to buy every single player in the squad - something we are the worst-equipped of all Premier League clubs to do.

Edited May 6, 2008 by Exiled in Toronto

[rover_groo]

Someone, please, put your disdain for me aside for a second and support me in my claim that Steven Reid was goddam awful when he first arrived at the club. He was playing on the wings and he displayed zero technical ability, zero skill, zero crossing ability and many were calling for him to get the chop.

Reid wasn't 'goddam awful', when he arrived.

He certainly didn't get of to a great start after getting injured in pre-season and then getting sent-off in his debut vs Bolton after coming on as a substitute. Further injuries were sustained in a team that was lurking in trouble until Hughes' took over. I think his longest run was something like 10 games before another injury appeared.

I would never say Reid was 'goddam awful', however he didn't get the opportunity to play to the best of his ability. How would you rate Kevin Davies or Ciccio Grabbi if Reid was goddam useless?

[stuwilky]

Wasnt Reid played on the left wing.

Didnt he get touted as a replacement for Duff?

Edited May 6, 2008 by stuwilky

[den]

Wasnt Reid played on the left wing.

Didnt he get touted as a replacement for Duff?

Yes Stu. Right again.

Edited May 7, 2008 by den

[joey_big_nose]

Yup he came as a winger and was awful. When he moved to the middle he rapidly grew into an excellent player.

Hopefully he will return to form. Although we have already got Vogel in and we will sign at least one CM in the summer so he will be up against some stiff opposition.

What occurs to me is that if you are going to play a defensive midfielder and a more attacking one then Dunn seems a much better bet going forward although he lack Reid's engine.

[Ozz]

I didn't hear the whole hour long bit, but Radio Lancs had an interview with Steven Warnock and Neal Mellor (former LFC mates).

Warnock, in a small clip I heard around half six, gave me the impression Reid was at full back for the duration now, as he believes that a settled back four of him, Nelsen, Samba and Reid would give more solidity next season.

[Eddie]

If he works hard on his positioning that could work out for us. I also like the idea of Emerton in central midfield, he certainly has the engine and his pace is useful.

[Tris]

Finally, I admit to hardly having seen Taylor play (a few times playing for ENgland U19s). But, as ridiculous as it may seem, that's not important to my argument. What is important is that Taylor was rated by Hughes to the extent of receiving a extended contract. He was rated by Glynn Hodges to the extent he was made captain of the reserves with whom he played consistently well for a number of seasons. He was rated by Dario Gradi to the extent they wanted to sign him for a season loan. He impressed Simon Grayson at Blackpool who was keen to purchase him. He had promise and was one of the best reserve players. This fact should've been enough for him to get a chance to back-up the firsts - unless Hughes was going to sign a genuinely superior and valuable left back - but that Bruno Berner is not.

Berner has made nearly 200 appearances at the highest league level in 4 different countries, as well as having 16 international caps. The Premier League is his most demanding environment to date, but he hasn't really made any errors on the few occasions he's been called upon.

In these days where half a million quid is at stake for each league position, I don't see the problem with bringing in a player like Berner as a great insurance policy. He cost next to nowt. It looks as if Olsson will displace him at Rovers as back up to Warnock - but hey that's football.

Taylor is nowhere. That's what you fail to see time and time again when peddling your ridiculous, never ending, circular argument. There are three better options for Rovers for his position, but in the name of sticking to your guns you just keep banging on and on like a stuck record.

I have two further questions. Why are you a Rovers fan, and what do you do yourself to promote youth football in your local area (wherever that might be)?

[joey_big_nose]

I didn't hear the whole hour long bit, but Radio Lancs had an interview with Steven Warnock and Neal Mellor (former LFC mates).

Warnock, in a small clip I heard around half six, gave me the impression Reid was at full back for the duration now, as he believes that a settled back four of him, Nelsen, Samba and Reid would give more solidity next season.

i would be extraordinarily suprised by that. I think Emerton has done well at right back, especially in terms of overlapping Bentley and giving him the room he needs.

I can understand the current arrangement - the Emerton and Vogel combination sheilds back four exceptionally well - but really Emerton should relocate back to the defence once we get a signing in the summer.

Reid has little experience at right back. And whilst he is enormously strong he offeres little in terms of positioning sense or crossing ability going forward.

It has to be a short term thing....

[LeftWinger]

Reid has little experience at right back. And whilst he is enormously strong he offeres little in terms of positioning sense or crossing ability going forward.

I know Millwall fans were surprised that Neill became a right-back for us - suggesting Reid would be far better in that position. Maybe he just needs time - although like most I haven't been impressed so far. Having said that, Reid doesn't impress me much wherever he plays.

[rover6]

Berner has made nearly 200 appearances at the highest league level in 4 different countries, as well as having 16 international caps. The Premier League is his most demanding environment to date, but he hasn't really made any errors on the few occasions he's been called upon.

In these days where half a million quid is at stake for each league position, I don't see the problem with bringing in a player like Berner as a great insurance policy. He cost next to nowt. It looks as if Olsson will displace him at Rovers as back up to Warnock - but hey that's football.

Taylor is nowhere. That's what you fail to see time and time again when peddling your ridiculous, never ending, circular argument. There are three better options for Rovers for his position, but in the name of sticking to your guns you just keep banging on and on like a stuck record.

I have two further questions. Why are you a Rovers fan, and what do you do yourself to promote youth football in your local area (wherever that might be)?

Berner hasn't made errors. Are you joking? He was turned to mince by Utaka and Mifsud this season. Why do you think Olsson's got the nod ahead of him recently? Hughes has clocked on that the guy - for all his technical ability and experience - is a liability due to his lack of pace. Whilst I am always eager to give new players/novices time to improve, the evidence doesn't look good - he's been axed from the Swiss squad, which should have the alarm bells ringing.

And you accuse me of a circular argument - but for a second will you turn your ego inwards and consider the people who argue against me - you being one. Are you lot not equally ungiving, resolute and vehement in your counter-argument? Which is fine but why does that make me a dogmatic preacher of circularity and you not? Because rationality is on your side and not mine? - I beg to differ.

Your post suggests that you have not read/understood my argument - which is more subtle than "play youngsters FULL STOP" or "Andy Taylor should be playing for Rovers now." To be honest, a messageboard is not a good medium for nuanced arguments because people wade in, all prejudices firing, without having read the preceding points - merely having got a gist. I admit to having done that on occasions.

If your two further questions were meant to be jibes, I have to flatter you by saying that they did annoy me. I am a Rovers fan because I started supporting Rovers. And I do zilch to promote youth football in my local area. I guess you'll call me a hypocrite.

Edited May 8, 2008 by rover6

[Paul Mellelieu]

There's nothing subtle or nuanced about your argument.