[Archived] Blackburn Rovers Independent Supporters Asscn

[Paul]

I believe I did explain the logic. Being independant could lead to a conflict between club and fans. Being non independant would keep fans in line and not lead to possibility of conflict. Does that explain?

360815[/snapback]

Well yes I understand the words but I don't comprehend the meaning. Taken to its ultimate logic none of us, least of all women, would be entitled to a vote. BRISA is not looking for conflict with the club; we have said we wish to work with the club but have made it clear we are not afraid to challenge the club when necessary. That is if or when we believe the club to be acting against the best interests of the fans.

Challenge is an important word. Imagine the club decide on a 25% ticket price increase for next year, BRISA would be challenging the club to demonstrate why this is necessary. If BRISA were simply run by the club the committee would be expected to roll over, have it's tummy tickled and state how lucky that its only 25%.

[Paul]

So what is on the agenda for the group to speak with the club about?

360818[/snapback]

We still have to finalise the agenda but I'll be surprised if the next meeting doesn't focus on attendance.

[Hughesy]

Have you any ideas on how we are going to look at addressing that?

Any suggestions?

[Paul]

OK this is a personal view. One thing is clear prior to a meeting with the club the committtee must:

- prepare and research its facts

- be in agreement on how those facts/views will be presented to the club

With regard to attendance I hope we would discuss:

- what has been tried to date

- which actions have been successful/failed

- why does the club think these actions failed/succeeded

- what does the club plan for the future

From this we should gain the club's view. Knowing this we can offer some immediate response from the fans perspective. We don't expect to come up with an idea to solve the problem overnight.

We have ideas to try discover the true reasons for non-attendance but for the moment it would be unwise to say more than that.

[Alan75]

Where is the Waters Edge?

Albion St

Blackburn

Lancashire

BB2 4LX

MAP

[cletus]

A supporters group run by the club would keep fans in line rather than having the risk of supporters rebelling and in the worst case scenario protesting to the point of boycotting matches.

Keep the fans in line??

I`m sorry, but we are not sheep. We don`t just empty our pockets into the club just because they want us to.

The board at BRFC do not own us. The board/board members may own Blackburn Rovers as a business, but it`s the supporters who really own the club .....every club. They`d be nothing without the fans.

I may be a fan, but i am certainly not a sheep.

Football clubs (in general) can make some pretty crappy decisions (i.e...West Hams bond scheme, Wimbledon`s move from their 'home', Leeds Utd`s vast overspending etc....) all of which had nothing to do with the fans BUT affected the fans who love their club the most. That`s why keeping a supporters organisation Independent from the club is essential.......in my view

[trueblue]

I believe I did explain the logic. Being independant could lead to a conflict between club and fans. Being non independant would keep fans in line and not lead to possibility of conflict. Does that explain?

360815[/snapback]

They've tried that haven't they? (Fans Forum springs to mind here) and it obviously didn't work as they've ceased it

[den]

I think the FF is still in existence.

A quick question to Vinjay. Let's suppose the Jersey trust decided to sell the club - more than a fifty fifty chance I reckon. Let's also suppose that rovers were sold to someone who didn't have the clubs' best interests at heart. Now the club would have to go along with that, wouldn't they.

Where would you stand on that Vinjay? After all you have said about the Walker family, would you have no objections? Would you go along with it, never to complain?

If something like that were to happen, Not just BRISA would be up in arms about it, so would all rovers fans. The only difference would be, that BRISA will be in a position to get the fans message over.

What do you think?

All purely hypothetical I know.

[Ste B]

and it obviously didn't work as they've ceased it 

360906[/snapback]

Thats not true. JW did say at the last meeting that he hoped the FF and BRISA can work together and he sees an active role for both.

[FourLaneBlue]

A supporters group run by the club would keep fans in line rather than having the risk of supporters rebelling and in the worst case scenario protesting to the point of boycotting matches.

360796[/snapback]

Why should the fans be kept "in line"? Why, in a worst case scenario, should they not go into "boycotting matches"? The supporters want the best for the club, it is not always the case that people who work for the club or even own the club also always want the best.

The way some posters talk on here you'd think Rovers was a charity organisation and that people should be ashamed for not going to matches. Others seem to think we should never say a negative word about anything associated with the club. It's ridiculous...Rovers is not a charity and if something is wrong with the club then the fans must speak out. If the way of speaking out means not spending their money on tickets then so be it.

Not that I'm saying BRISA should go looking for arguments but the people who receive excellent wages from the club should not be immune from scrutiny. That includes the chairman and the board as well as the team manager.

Edited November 16, 2005 by FourLaneBlue

[trueblue]

Thats not true.  JW did say at the last meeting that he hoped the FF and BRISA can work together and he sees an active role for both.

360914[/snapback]

Apologies... I thought I'd read somewhere that JW said they were disbanding the FF.. obviously I got it wrong (where's me coat?)

[den]

Apologies... I thought I'd read somewhere that JW said they were disbanding the FF.. obviously I got it wrong (where's me coat?) 

361278[/snapback]

You're probably thinking of the official supporters association, which was disbanded this summer.

[trueblue]

You're probably thinking of the official supporters association, which was disbanded this summer.

361287[/snapback]

I KNEW these bloody glasses were no good !

[cletus]

Rovers is not a charity and if something is wrong with the club then the fans must speak out. If the way of speaking out means not spending their money on tickets then so be it.

....i agree. Sometimes football clubs are guilty of taking the fans for granted. Voting with their feet & their wallets is sometimes the only way to get the boards attention. Maybe that`s one of the reasons why attendances have been steadily falling for the last few years....people have not been happy with the product on offer?

[SouthAussieRover]

You're probably thinking of the official supporters association, which was disbanded this summer.

361287[/snapback]

It's time the FF was disbanded too.

It's secretive, unelectable and doesn't seem to represent the masses.

Sorry members of said body and call me what you like but it had to be said.

In addition any member standing for a committee position of the BRISA organisation should also declare their membership of the FF.

I personally can't see how being a member of both organisations is compatible.

[Glenn]

It's time the FF was disbanded too.

It's secretive, unelectable and doesn't seem to represent the masses.

Sorry members of said body and call me what you like but it had to be said.

In addition any member standing for a committee position of the BRISA organisation should also declare their membership of the FF.

I personally can't see how being a member of both organisations is compatible.

361303[/snapback]

Myself, Ste and Clare (Kiwiwannabe) have all declared our involvement in both on numerous occasions.

The two things are very separate entities that serve different purposes. As long as I agree to keep what I learn from the FF private and what is said at BRISA public I don't see any conflict of interests.

[den]

The minutes of BRISAs' meeting with JW/TF are now on the BRISA site.

BRISA Minutes

[RevidgeBlue]

Sorry to be a nuisance but what does meeting "bi monthly or quarterly" mean?

The first would indicate once every two weeks the second once every twelve weeks.

[den]

Sorry to be a nuisance but what does meeting "bi monthly or quarterly" mean?

The first would indicate once every two weeks the second once every twelve weeks. 

361390[/snapback]

They were the two suggested schedules Rev - Bi monthly and quarterly. Nothing is set in stone. BRISA has a committment from rovers to meet us on a regular basis. The January 12th date came from BRISA with no objections from JW or TF.

At the moment the club have done everything possible to help us set BRISA up, as was demonstrated by their agreement for BRISA to use the big screen, website, radio rovers, programme and to allow us to leaflet fans within the ground.

If ever that was to change, being independent, we could inform the fans of that. As long as BRISA is honest enough with members and club, there shouldn't be a problem. But you never know.

[stuwilky]

Sorry to be a nuisance but what does meeting "bi monthly or quarterly" mean?

The first would indicate once every two weeks the second once every twelve weeks. 

361390[/snapback]

Isnt bi monthly every other month? That what was agreed anyway Rev.

[cn174]

Bi monthly and quarterly.

361396[/snapback]

bi monthly = every two months i think!

[cletus]

The two things are very separate entities that serve different purposes. As long as I agree to keep what I learn from the FF private and what is said at BRISA public I don't see any conflict of interests.

Q....Will the 'handshakes' be different?

[OscarRaven]

Must admit to been disapointed with the outcome of the first meeting

I see they dangled the FF carrot by offering top secret info if you didn't publish the minutes... nice try....... although.... "It was also suggested the committee might want to discuss it’s overall policy in this area" - care to elaborate?

1) The club have skirted around a lot of the issues providing no new information relating to who actually owns BRFC and what thier intentions are. Is it me or is standing also considered a "will not happen" issue as this does not warrant a mention.

2) The attitude towards salary caps as a "will not happen" shows to me how in the box John Williams thinking is - why will it not happen because those that can actually do it - like 1 of the 20 premier league club chairmen haven't got the balls to stand up and make it happen. It only takes a small spark to start the biggest inferno.

3) My feeling is the club are interested in one thing and one thing only - how can we get more cash out of these people. They are not interested in working with us to implement safe standing, salary caps, changing KO times or any other issues that would upset the "apple cart" at FA/Sky/PL HQ.

A big disapointment. No reflection on the BRISA people though.

[stuwilky]

OR,

1, There is no new information to be provided, we know that the owners of the club are the "Jack Walker BRFC Jersey Settlement" (or whatever it is called!)

2, I think the point was that in order to make the most progress focussing on the "will not happen" issues which will probably end up in stalemate. The standing issue was mentioned as it was not something BRFC could implement without national level support (hence the agenda item on joining the FSF)

3, I must admit I certainly didnt get that impression from him. He seemed to genuinely care about the club and the fans and wanted to drive the club forward. But that is just a personal observation.

I thought that for a meeting with no formal objectives, simply to suffice as an introduction, it was fairly positive.

[Paul]

Must admit to been disapointed with the outcome of the first meeting

I see they dangled the FF carrot by offering top secret info if you didn't publish the minutes... nice try....... although.... "It was also suggested the committee might want to discuss it’s overall policy in this area" - care to elaborate?

We might like to consider the club could provide confidential background information to support the reasons behnd a decision. It could also be that personal views differ from the official line. Just to surmise on two possibilities.

1) The club have skirted around a lot of the issues providing no new information relating to who actually owns BRFC and what thier intentions are. Is it me or is standing also considered a "will not happen" issue as this does not warrant a mention.

I would have to disagree with that remark. This meeting was, as the minutes state, the start of the process, to set waht one person described as "the rules of engagement". BRISA did not expect any answers at this meeting other than an undertaking for regular discussion with the club. This has been achieved. The Janaury meeting will focus on a specific topic - probably attendances - when BRISA will expect to receive definitive answers to our questions.

"Will not happen issues" are those which require Premier League agreement or a change in the law. The sense is do not waste time on these issues at a local level. By all means campaign through the FSF and present a view to the club but recognise these are two examples of issues that Blackburn Rovers can influence but cannot change on its own. In other words lets talk about the things Rovers can change locally, we can argue all we want for standing in the BBE but it won't happen without a change in the law. The campaigning therefore has to be national through the FSF. Fans are going to have to get to grips with this aspect of what may or may not be realistic.

I originally used "standing " as the example in the minutes and then changed it to "salary caps". My thinking was that saying standing was a will not happen issue would not have been wise WHEN IT WAS AN EXAMPLE not a definitive statement.

2) The attitude towards salary caps as a "will not happen" shows to me how in the box John Williams thinking is - why will it not happen because those that can actually do it - like 1 of the 20 premier league club chairmen haven't got the balls to stand up and make it happen. It only takes a small spark to start the biggest inferno.

With respect I feel you haven't thought that remark through. Salary caps can only work at a PL level. Imagine Rovers or any other club decide to bring in a salary cap. Immediately the club is handicapped by a self-imposed limit on its spending in this area. Players will not sign because the club cannot match salaries elsewhere; the club starts the season with a weaker squad, results are poor, support drops, income drops, the transfer window opens but players won't come beacause the club pays lower wages and is in the bottom three.......and so it goes on. Salary caps only work if the whole league plays by the rules...andthey wouldn't, ways would be found to manipulate the money paid to a player - 10K per week plus 100k in "image rights" No one club can light that fire.

3) My feeling is the club are interested in one thing and one thing only - how can we get more cash out of these people. They are not interested in working with us to implement safe standing, salary caps, changing KO times or any other issues that would upset the "apple cart" at FA/Sky/PL HQ.

As we have yet to present any views on those subjects to Rovers it's hard to see how they can be accused of not wishing to work with BRISA. First we have to present our case, receive a response and then it can be criticised.

A big disapointment. No reflection on the BRISA people though.

361428[/snapback]

Overall the meeting was a real success and has given us a serious indication of how to move forward. it also clearly underlined the real need for more people to be actively involved with BRISA. We have a massive workload ahead of us if we are to make sensible, coherent representations to the club. Williams and Finn are not going to continue to give up their evenings to a bunch of fans talking off the cuff.