[Archived] Blackburn Rovers Independent Supporters Asscn

[Exiled in Toronto]

It seems that everyone who meets with the guy comes away with a very positive impression, he's very open, committed etc., yet his broader public persona, if one exists at all, reflects none of that (in my humble opinion.) Maybe he just needs a good PR advisor.

Obviously at this stage its all a bit lovey-dovey, but it'll be interesting to gauge their long-term commitment to BRISA when you start giving them a hard time on something. I wouldn't be surprised if he suddenly has to cancel an odd meeting should the process get choppy.

I also agree with Oscar on the ownership thing. I don't actually care who they are, but I would like to know their motivations and intentions. Chelski get that from a Mafia-avoiding, Billionaire reclusive Siberian mayor who manages attends every game, so why we can't get it mystifies me.

[Paul]

I don't know if JW needs a PR man but the club need to improve the method of communicating information to the support. This is one of our main concerns.

As regards ownership of the club rest assurred BRISA wants to ask these questions and is actively looking for the right channels. Crucially we also have to think very seriously about the questions we ask. This isn't a question of a few notes on a fag packet on Saturday night.

[stuwilky]

It seems that everyone who meets with the guy comes away with a very positive impression, he's very open, committed etc., yet his broader public persona, if one exists at all, reflects none of that (in my humble opinion.)  Maybe he just needs a good PR advisor.

361443[/snapback]

I quite agree, and would go one step further in fact, any of our clubs "top dogs" simply arent recognisable, for someone who is the Chief Executive of one of the only clubs to win the league JW is fairly anonymous amongst our own fans, never mind the wider footballing audience. This, to me, points to a lack of clear communication from the club.

Other than the odd rare interview on sky there is nothing. I do believe this is something the club recognise finally with recent "public appearances" (in inverted commas as I hate the phrase but cant think of anything more apt!).

Edited November 16, 2005 by stuwilky

[colin]

Just a thought.

I don't suppose you have to be a member of BRISA to be able to offer some professional help to the organisation.

I'm immediately thinking of an accountant who posts here on a regular basis.

Surely there must be others who would be willing to offer free advice.

Maybe it might be worth a trawl of members just to see what they can offer?

[philipl]

I quite agree, and would go one step further in fact, any of our clubs "top dogs" simply arent recognisable, for someone who is the Chief Executive of one of the only clubs to win the league JW is fairly anonymous amongst our own fans, never mind the wider footballing audience.  This, to me, points to a lack of clear communication from the club.

Other than the odd rare interview on sky there is nothing.  I do believe this is something the club recognise finally with recent "public appearances" (in inverted commas as I hate the phrase but cant think of anything more apt!).

361451[/snapback]

Perhaps good administrators in football clubs are like referees- you realise how good they are when you don't notice them.

John Williams has been at the club seven years (?) and it is an astonishing achievement that I've heard virtually no criticism of him from within the club or those close to it. - The same goes for Tom Finn by the way. They are either Joe Stalin or very good at what they are doing.

Contrast that with the recently appointed Secretary of Shrewsbury Town (whose blurb suggests he went there straight from Ewood and masterminded the Rovers' rise to the Premiership- at least he had the good grace never to admit he worked for the Dingles). Scarcely a month went by without some story circulating about the prowess and competence of John Howarth when he was Secretary of BRFC.

Equally think of your own work situations and the respect and reputations of managers you know.

There are four other points to consider:

- apart from Peter Kenyon who has the global brand to build or Trevor Birch (deep in the mire others created), how many GOOD football chairmen or administrators are high profile?

- the Walker Trust clearly prefer a low profile as indeed all Trusts do. They have a job of administration and good husbandry and that style extends to their commercial operations as well e.g. Flybe is a remarkable success story but that airline has a very different profile to Ryanair or Easyjet.

- I'd far rather have a low profile JW and his track record of securing a very high percentage of the transfer targets identified by his Managers than the track records of the Chief Execs of Everton, Villa, Spuds (until recently) or worst of all, Karen Brady.

- the Rovers are building a very effective presence behind the scenes in the broader corridors of power. We could only have joined the G14 in 1996 (and would have the embarassment of being kicked out for getting relegated in 1999!) but that organisation didn't start until after we were sliding out of contention. Apart from being a G14 member or Chelsea, probably no other single club wields as much influence as the Rovers do and have done down the years. A higher profile wouldn't help- better to be not noticed and effective than the other way round.

At the end of the day, we are a football club and our fame comes from the team on the football pitch.

And yes I will help if there is anything needed.

Edited November 17, 2005 by philipl

[stuwilky]

Philip, I agree with all of that.

But the vast majority of fans arent aware!

[cletus]

good post Philipl

I`d rather have who we`ve got than a Ken Bates type.

[Guest Vinjay]

good post Philipl

I`d rather have who we`ve got than a Ken Bates type.

361547[/snapback]

Yeah he actually attends every match at his club and makes a public announcement more than once every...actually in the Walker's case it's never isn't it?

[OscarRaven]

Thanks for the detailed reply,

Yes perhaps my ambitions are lofty however John Williams is one of twenty people in football who can make sweeping dramatic changes to the game, I know one man alone cant achieve it - but is it too much to ask to expect him to raise the questions at the PL/FA meetings to put it on the agenda instead of dismissing it as a not going to happen.

In the past people couldn't see a day when white and black people would not be segregated on busses or a day when Russia and America could be considered allies - but the ‘it wont happen so what’s the point asking the question’ attitude stinks in my opinion.

OK so John W and Tom F are nice guys - great, the management of the club can be said to be reasonably sound but its not fantastic is it - we still run at a loss and we seem to be bleeding fans faster than most - where as teams such as Bolton and Charlton are managing the situation better in my opinion (i.e. secure in PL and posting profits).

Williams and Finn are not going to continue to give up their evenings to a bunch of fans talking off the cuff.

361440[/snapback]

A word of warning there, a dialogue with the club is "nice to have" not an essential, BRISA is a consumer pressure group its power lies in representing the supporter - worrying about whether Finn and Williams are going to discontinue their cosy chats with the committee if the questions get a bit 'unstructured' or 'difficult' concerns me. They should be grateful you (representing – we) turn up to talk to them not the other way round (remember who is the customer).

As I have said my disappointment lies predominantly with the club, however I accept (albeit reluctantly) they have to balance the fans “wants” with the demands of the other PL clubs, their investors and the paymaster general – Sky. Let’s see how supportive Williams and Finn are when you start trying to do things that don’t have the goal of increasing revenue for the club – but I’m sure they will be all very nice in saying no.

All for joining the national level supporters groups to leverage additional pressure.

My expectations unrealistic – I’m sorry you guys think so.

[Guest Vinjay]

We seem to be bleeding fans faster than most - where as teams such as Bolton and Charlton are managing the situation better in my opinion 

361570[/snapback]

Bolton and Charlton fans haven't seen their club lose a mulit million pound budget in the last few years.

[OscarRaven]

Yeah he actually attends every match at his club and makes a public announcement more than once every...actually in the Walker's case it's never isn't it?

361564[/snapback]

Just ignore him and stay on topic - if you respond to him your just letting him achieve his sad little goal. He gets off on the abuse.

Better idea start a new poll "should Vinjay be banned", 99.9% yes vote would give the admins something to think about.

[Guest Vinjay]

What are you going to do if someone disagrees with you at your BRISA meeting tonight. Tell them to shut up? That will do wonders for you won't it.

[Scotty]

There's a danger of over-reacting here. Our first meeting with the club wasn't to discuss issues as such, the aim was to simply introduce ourselves to each other and discuss how we mean to work together in the future.

John Williams' comments about "will not happen issues" such as salary capping clearly came from an informed position. I'm sure he's had many discussions and meetings about this with the other Premier League chairmen, and he obviously feels that that particular issue isn't going to happen.

In any case that isn't the sort of issue we would take to the club. Issues like that have to be tackled at a national level, which is why we are joining up with the FSF. Rovers aren't going to introduce a salary cap independently so pressure has to be put on the league authorities collectively.

Up to now our impressions of the club have been positive and they've given the indication that they intend to take us seriously and listen to us. So, until that changes, maybe we should just wait and see what happens in the future.

[Ste B]

What are you going to do if someone disagrees with you at your BRISA meeting tonight. Tell them to shut up? That will do wonders for you won't it.

361575[/snapback]

If theres disgreement, then we take a vote on the issues at hand. Simple as. (well apart from the issues of proxy votes for those who cannot attend for whatever reason).

You are more than welcome to come to the meeting and put your points accross.

P.S - can you say why you have been banned from at least 2 other Rovers messageboards (Roverstalk, Official Site ??)

Oscar.. personally I dont believe you should abandon your aims because they are unrealistic, its just that we should channel our initial efforts at those things we can make a difference on, whilst still putting pressure both locally and nationally for issues such as salary caps/standing etc. Going it alone unilaterally could however mean Rovers put themselves at great risk.

[Guest Vinjay]

I haven't been banned from the official site and I've never registered with Roverstalk before. I could post on the official site right now and as for the people at Roverstalk you could always ask them if they ever banned me.

Edited November 17, 2005 by Vinjay

[OscarRaven]

Going it alone unilaterally could however mean Rovers put themselves at great risk.

361581[/snapback]

Completely agree and am not advocating BRFC becomes a martyr for the good of football.

I simply want the club to speak up on our behalf (our voice is louder than 72 others). Speaking out against these issues doesn't put the club at risk - it shows that not every club agrees with the party line.

Again fully supportive of the progressing issues with FSF as well.

[OscarRaven]

There's a danger of over-reacting here.  Our first meeting with the club wasn't to discuss issues as such, the aim was to simply introduce ourselves to each other and discuss how we mean to work together in the future.

361577[/snapback]

Fair enough. Lets see how it goes over the meduim term.

Just expressing my personal opinion which I fully accept is very idealistic but every group has to have its fair share of dreamers.....

[stuwilky]

Fair enough. Lets see how it goes over the meduim term.

Just expressing my personal opinion which I fully accept is very idealistic but every group has to have its fair share of dreamers.....

361592[/snapback]

Without dreams there is no reality.....

[LDRover]

2) The attitude towards salary caps as a "will not happen" shows to me how in the box John Williams thinking is - why will it not happen because those that can actually do it - like 1 of the 20 premier league club chairmen haven't got the balls to stand up and make it happen. It only takes a small spark to start the biggest inferno.

361428[/snapback]

Salary caps are a bit of a minefield.

If you cap it as a percentage of turnover we suffer more if anything because our turnover is small in relation to most Prem clubs. If you cap it as a figure say £20 million a year it could work (certainly for the smaller clubs).

But then there's the problem of if it's implemented solely for the Premiership. If it is, the clubs playing in Europe are disadvantaged when they play the big continental teams who can pay huge salaries. For that reason alone it's pretty much unworkable unless UEFA/FIFA get involved and stipulate a cap across the board and we all know that's not going to happen.

Edited November 18, 2005 by LDRover

[jim mk2]

Salary caps work in US sport. With a strong lead from Uefa, they can be implimented here too.

[Tris]

- We agreed to join the FSF

- We agreed that I am going to be the FSF rep for BRISA. If for some reason I can't make a meeting, or there's an opportunity for more than one member of BRISA to attend, then we'll sort out who goes as and when.

Apologies for dragging this from the BRISA forum into here, but as the BRISA forum only has 55 registered members I'm sure we can all agree that it's best for BRISA to discuss everything as openly as possible.

The BRISA committee is currently an unelected group of volunteers, who have all done fantastically well to get BRISA to where it is today. I chaired the very first meetings of the BRISA committee, so I have a vested interest in saying that.

I'm also one of the paid up members, and I've also paid over and above that first fiver as have the others who were involved early on.

There is absolutely no way that anyone (especially Scott) is going to represent my views (as a paid up BRISA member) to the wider football audience ... unless they are elected and mandated to do so.

None of the committee has that mandate until elections have taken place. You guys can't just swan up to the Waters Edge and decide who represents BRISA to the FSF. There is absolutely no way anyone can represent BRISA at that level until there is a clear mandate from the paid up membership.

On a more general matter, I think the BRISA committee should reconsider the whole status of the BRISA forum and the input it has into matters for discussion.

That forum has 55 members. This forum has over 3000. There's no argument about where the most representative view will come from - whether a fiver has been paid or not.

At the second BRISA meeting (back in March??) we had the mechanics in place to have a BRISA phone number so we could embrace those who don't have internet access? What's happened to that? Why can't I see the number anywhere - or has BRISA gone internet only???

Having been excluded (at the specific request of a BRISA committee member) from the forums where the development of BRISA is discussed, perhaps all that is in hand and I just don't know.

Let's hope so, because if not BRISA is already dead in the water.

But what is absolutely certain is that nobody has a mandate to swan off to represent my / our views to anyone, whatever you've minuted in the Waters Edge last Thursday. I'm amazed that it was even discussed at this stage.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Tris

[MCMC1875]

How many were present at The Waters Edge?

[Paul]

20 or so.

[dave birch]

Having been excluded (at the specific request of a BRISA committee member) from the forums where the development of BRISA is discussed, perhaps all that is in hand and I just don't know.

But what is absolutely certain is that nobody has a mandate to swan off to represent my / our views to anyone, whatever you've minuted in the Waters Edge last Thursday.  I'm amazed that it was even discussed at this stage.

362163[/snapback]

Tris has a very good point here.

Could someone answer two questions:

1. Why was Tris excluded, as described above?

2. Has there been a vote to send someone to the FSF?

For BRISA to work, it has to have the confidence of the members, and more importantly, potential members. It cannot be allowed to become an exclusive club.

[Paul]

None of the committee has that mandate until elections have taken place.  You guys can't just swan up to the Waters Edge and decide who represents BRISA to the FSF.  There is absolutely no way anyone can represent BRISA at that level until there is a clear mandate from the paid up membership.

Tris you know as well as I do decisions have to be made. We have discussed this in the past and you have agreed with that point. If decisions are not made BRISA will achieve nothing

On a more general matter, I think the BRISA committee should reconsider the whole status of the BRISA forum and the input it has into matters for discussion.

If you had waited for the minutes to be published you would see just that has been done

That forum has 55 members.  This forum has over 3000.  There's no argument about where the most representative view will come from - whether a fiver has been paid or not.

This matter has been discussed endlessly. It is NOT in the interests of BRISA to become a part of brfcs.com. You clearly have not thought the consequences through on this, Glenn, Ste and I have. I should point out it is also up to the Admin of brfcs.com what happens to this site. While it is obvious Glenn, Ste and I are involved with BRISA this does not give BRISA any remit to expect brfcs.com to become its mouthpiece. There is no reason why BRISA issues cannot be discussed here but it would be far better for BRISA if it happened on the BRISA forum. We have discussed and will plan ways to achieve that.

Speaking personally I will need convincing BRISA should be in anyway represented by brfcs.com as I am 100% against that idea at present. It simply creates too many difficulties.

Remember the discussions on cliques?

At the second BRISA meeting (back in March??) we had the mechanics in place to have a BRISA phone number so we could embrace those who don't have internet access?  What's happened to that?  Why can't I see the number anywhere - or has BRISA gone internet only???

As you were at the meeting, and I presume you have the minutes, you will know who took responsibility for that. I suggest you ask that person directly as I am not going to name names.

Again if you waited till the minutes you would see the depth of discussion that took place regarding communication with those who do not have internet access AND thos who are NOT members. You've the jumped the gun and your assumption is 100% wrong.

Having been excluded (at the specific request of a BRISA committee member) from the forums where the development of BRISA is discussed, perhaps all that is in hand and I just don't know.

That is again 100% incorrect and you know it because I discussed this with you privatley within the last two weeks.

Let's hope so, because if not BRISA is already dead in the water.

But what is absolutely certain is that nobody has a mandate to swan off to represent my / our views to anyone, whatever you've minuted in the Waters Edge last Thursday.  I'm amazed that it was even discussed at this stage.

Ok Tris lets have your take on it? Just how on earth are we to make any progress without decisions. If I personally hadn't pushed the launch date and forced decisions through we'd still be debating it now. Then BRISA really would be dead in the water

If BRISA doesn't have a mandate to represent views just what are we supposed to do? What are we supposed to discuss with JW or TF? I'd like a constructive response please because it's clear to me you have decided to mouth off on this because of your personal position regarding Scotty.

Edited November 20, 2005 by Paul