[Archived] Never Mind Sacked!

[The_Expert]

...So I will reiterate that too many referees don't know the game but can probably recite Law in parrot fashion. There is a distinct difference between the two.

Oh, of course I agree - there IS a difference. And what distinguishes a good referee from a poor one is always a matter of perspective. Like you, I have more than 1000 games under my belt in 25 years in the game, in this country and internationally. I guess this makes us a little bit more insightful when it comes to appreciating the finer points of an official's performance, as we both know (from personal experience) that 99.99% of what we do in the middle is done by instinct and by trusting our own judgement, not that of the onlooker who by definition always has a different perspective on any decision we make.

I like your username - I guess it kind of hints at your background, and perhaps some Italian influence, Franco

[thenodrog]

So I will reiterate that too many referees don't know the game but can probably recite Law in parrot fashion. There is a distinct difference between the two.

If Mike Riley, Uriah Rennie, Jeff Winter and Alan Wiley can do 5 keep ups apiece I'll show my arse on the town hall steps.

[arbitro]

If Mike Riley, Uriah Rennie, Jeff Winter and Alan Wiley can do 5 keep ups apiece I'll show my arse on the town hall steps.

Having seen them play you are correct.

Oh, of course I agree - there IS a difference. And what distinguishes a good referee from a poor one is always a matter of perspective. Like you, I have more than 1000 games under my belt in 25 years in the game, in this country and internationally. I guess this makes us a little bit more insightful when it comes to appreciating the finer points of an official's performance, as we both know (from personal experience) that 99.99% of what we do in the middle is done by instinct and by trusting our own judgement, not that of the onlooker who by definition always has a different perspective on any decision we make.

I like your username - I guess it kind of hints at your background, and perhaps some Italian influence, Franco

I know who you mean but I am not him.

[LDRover]

Having seen them play you are correct.

I know who you mean but I am not him.

Franco could barely speak English never mind write it!!

It'd be Tony, I'd assume.

[roverandout]

the best ref i have ever seen was colina, never sought any attention and thats how refs should be!!!

[sentient]

(Please don't use that word again) the media. They don't care about us.

[thenodrog]

I think the lino for Chelsea v Wigan must be from Mill Hill or Farnworth or similar. Abject poor decisions that could cost Wigan £50m at least. Nice to see that the MoTD team sympathised but then saw the funny side of it. Be different if a media favourite was in a desperate relegation battle.

Edited April 8, 2012 by thenodrog

[JAL]

Franco could barely speak English never mind write it!!

It'd be Tony, I'd assume.

What a legend Franco from Darwen was.

[JAL]

Having refereed probably 1000 games and 500 of these involving professional clubs I think I know the refereeing business. I have also worked with all the current Select Group of referees in various forms. I also played in a tough competition for several years before injury forced me to give up. Trust me there is a complete understanding of the game by a lot (not all) of referees. I have been in seminars and changing rooms all over the country and disagreed with many of my then colleagues. I have also spoken to many players who told me that they have to change the way they play when certain referees were involved in their games. They were wary of making a challenge in case it was mistimed and certain referees couldn't understand that.

So I will reiterate that too many referees don't know the game but can probably recite Law in parrot fashion. There is a distinct difference between the two.

Are referees not like supporters, players and managers, in that each one of us can see a situation, yet reach a different outcome or conclusion to that situation.

[Jeru tha Damaja]

Most of us see it a particular way because we're biased, though. If the referees show a pattern of bias toward particular players or teams should we not stop them from being in charge of their games?

What conclusion did Martin Atkinson come to with the Balotelli challenge on Alex Song today?

[thenodrog]

What a legend Franco from Darwen was.

Franco was usually bloody awful but the nicest person one could hope to meet. Always smiling , I could never stay mad at him for very long.

[arbitro]

Are referees not like supporters, players and managers, in that each one of us can see a situation, yet reach a different outcome or conclusion to that situation.

In most respects yes. A lot of the decision making process it is down to good positioning, anticipating and reading play and bloody hard work.

Franco was usually bloody awful but the nicest person one could hope to meet. Always smiling , I could never stay mad at him for very long.

Franco is really poorly at the moment after suffering a stroke before Christmas.

[Stuart]

Most of us see it a particular way because we're biased, though. If the referees show a pattern of bias toward particular players or teams should we not stop them from being in charge of their games?

What conclusion did Martin Atkinson come to with the Balotelli challenge on Alex Song today?

Presumably he didn't see it - there were two players in his way (not sure about the lino though). I expect Liabiliti will be dealt with tomorrow.

[Ricky]

The Balotelli incident will surely be picked up by the FA. He didn't get booked for it so they can take post match action. Wouldn't be FA all suprised if his ban gets upgraded from 1 game to 4 games.

[arbitro]

The Balotelli incident will surely be picked up by the FA. He didn't get booked for it so they can take post match action. Wouldn't be FA all suprised if his ban gets upgraded from 1 game to 4 games.

The procedure is that the FA Compliance Unit will contact the referee and simply ask him if he didn't see the incident. If he says that he didn't then they will ask him if he had seen it what action would he have taken. If he says he saw it and was happy with the challenge then the FA's hands are tied.

[Ricky]

I would imagine that the ref would have seen the various replays of it on sky and MOTD by now. I would imagine he'd be finding it hard to justify to the FA how he deemed it acceptable so a simple 'I didn't see it' will probably get him out of a sticky spot.

[Stuart]

The procedure is that the FA Compliance Unit will contact the referee and simply ask him if he didn't see the incident. If he says that he didn't then they will ask him if he had seen it what action would he have taken. If he says he saw it and was happy with the challenge then the FA's hands are tied.

If he says he saw it and was happy with the challenge, he should never be allowed to referee a game again - even at amateur level. That was a nasty foul that could have ended a fellow player's career.

[Kelbo]

This is why I do believe ex players should be fast tracked to ref at proffessional level, at 30 to 35, these players are fit, fitter than most refs, would keep up with the game (which is half the battle)and would be aware of all the tricks of the trade from their experience in the game, as ex players, there would be a mutual respect, not all players would take this route but there would be a few journeyman players who would and this would be to the benefit of the game for at the moment, I am seeing some extremely poor refereeing performances, I know its a difficult job but they are now well paid and should get most decisions correct.

[JAL]

This is why I do believe ex players should be fast tracked to ref at proffessional level, at 30 to 35, these players are fit, fitter than most refs, would keep up with the game (which is half the battle)and would be aware of all the tricks of the trade from their experience in the game, as ex players, there would be a mutual respect, not all players would take this route but there would be a few journeyman players who would and this would be to the benefit of the game for at the moment, I am seeing some extremely poor refereeing performances, I know its a difficult job but they are now well paid and should get most decisions correct.

The young Geordie referee, Probert, who didnt give the penalty for Fulham at Man U, I, think was on Newcastles books as a young player.

[Doug]

It's about time the jobsworth known as the 4th official was given something to do. He should be sat in front of a tv watching the game. Rooney would have got at least a booking, Ballotelli would have been sent off for his first challenge and QPR would not have been down 1-0 and down to 10 men, effectively ruining the game for everybody.

Then, just look at the Wigan game, shocking, if it happened to us there would be all sorts of allegations being posted on here.

There is too much at stake in the PL for TV reviewing not to be used.

Or, use 2 refs, one in each half.

Edited April 9, 2012 by 12milesfromewood

[JAL]

It's about time the jobsworth known as the 4th official was given something to do. He should be sat in front of a tv watching the game. Rooney would have got at least a booking, Ballotelli would have been sent off for his first challenge and QPR would not have been down 1-0 and down to 10 men, effectively ruining the game for everybody.

Then, just look at the Wigan game, shocking, if it happened to us there would be all sorts of allegations being posted on here.

There is too much at stake in the PL for TV reviewing not to be used.

Or, use 2 refs, one in each half.

When do you stop play? and how long do you give to make that decision? remember it only takes a second to score a goal.

What if you send a player off during this time, award a penalty to the opposition so many changes to the Laws of the game is it possible to implement effective communications right through from grassroots level upto the premier league and international level.

.....and who pays for it all especially at the lower levels of the game.

Edited April 9, 2012 by JAL

[Doug]

When do you stop play? and how long do you give to make that decision? remember it only takes a second to score a goal.

What if you send a player off during this time, award a penalty to the opposition so many changes to the Laws of the game is it possible to implement effective communications right through from grassroots level upto the premier league and international level.

.....and who pays for it all especially at the lower levels of the game.

I expected this argument, I have used it on many occasions, my post is to open debate on the subject, and I agree with all the points you make. But, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that TV is actualy highlighting so many costly mistakes that we have to use it somehow. I would use it initialy in the PL. If you look at the Balotelli challenge, there was a significant delay while the player got treated and therefore enough time for the jobsworth to review and message him through his intercom. Likewise the penalty/sending off at Old Trafford.

Maybe there could be a reviewing system like cricket has adopted. I'm not too sure yet, but, refs mistakes are now costing teams so many points and therefore affecting league positions, relegation, titles etc. that there has to be a change to the current system.

[Stuart]

JAL, you stop play after a goal has been scored - IF there is a perceived infringement. It's done in many other sports. There might be a glut of appeals to start with but they will settle down.

After all the only stat that counts is the number of goals so there's little point in stopping play otherwise. (Things which are missed like the Balotelli incident can continue to be reviewed after the game has finished). We already have "phases of play" for offsides and the ref can allow play to continue so there should be no need to rewind for anything more than 30 seconds maximum. It should be the referee who asks for a second opinion from the fourth official - and only after the captain makes a request. It might even finally be a way to bring back respect into football.

The issue is that refs don't always see incidents so rather than people caning them, why not help them?

And it's no good trying to pretend that top level competition isn't virtually a different sport to lower leagues already because it is. I don't recall there being a snickometer or hawkeye in lower level cricket or rugby matches and that seems to manage without imploding.

[arbitro]

JAL, you stop play after a goal has been scored - IF there is a perceived infringement. It's done in many other sports. There might be a glut of appeals to start with but they will settle down.

After all the only stat that counts is the number of goals so there's little point in stopping play otherwise. (Things which are missed like the Balotelli incident can continue to be reviewed after the game has finished). We already have "phases of play" for offsides and the ref can allow play to continue so there should be no need to rewind for anything more than 30 seconds maximum. It should be the referee who asks for a second opinion from the fourth official - and only after the captain makes a request. It might even finally be a way to bring back respect into football.

The issue is that refs don't always see incidents so rather than people caning them, why not help them?

And it's no good trying to pretend that top level competition isn't virtually a different sport to lower leagues already because it is. I don't recall there being a snickometer or hawkeye in lower level cricket or rugby matches and that seems to manage without imploding.

I would definately bring in technology but only for maters of fact. By this I mean things like did the ball cross the line or was the player off-side when he scored. This is not open to opinion and any replays could be viewed as the game would be stopped naturally. For matters of opinion (ie a penalty appeal) there is will always differences so I would leave that in the hands of the officials.

[Stuart]

I would definately bring in technology but only for maters of fact. By this I mean things like did the ball cross the line or was the player off-side when he scored. This is not open to opinion and any replays could be viewed as the game would be stopped naturally. For matters of opinion (ie a penalty appeal) there is will always differences so I would leave that in the hands of the officials.

I agree. I'd also include putting the ball in the net with your hand.

The technology should be used to assist the referee not replace them. Also let's not forget, the 4th official is always a qualified referee anyway so they should be more than competent to give the decision after reviewing an incident - and quickly relay to the ref. They're already mic'd anyway.

I can't help feeling that it won't happen because being able to ignore an incident may suit some people but, if it's all about fair play and respect, there should be no problem.