[Archived] Drugs

[blue phil]

Surely the fact its taboo is the reason kids start using it.

Exactly ....it's KIDS who start using it .

Now most people accept that we have a problem with alcohol abuse amongst kids under the legal age and the best means of preventing that is to make it less easily available .

So someone please tell me how a government that is thinking of raising the legal drinking age and is trying ever more desperate measures to curb alcohol abuse could suddenly turn everything on its head and introduce far more addictive drugs into the equasion ?

Presumably , to square the circle and be consistent , they would have to make drugs legal and then try and make it unavailable to those kids and young adults who would take them .

By my logic that would leave the market open to illegal suppliers to capture the under age potential users - in other words the very same people in the same age group that start taking drugs in their teens .

For decriminalising to really take out the criminal suppliers the government would have to make drug using legal for all ages ........as well as subsidising the price to undercut the always more efficient "private" sector .

What would happen at street level isn't always what those in their ivory towers might wish to happen ........

[Anti Euro Smiths Fan]

No action taken over muslim heroin claims

I think that this is some rare common sense from the police and Crown Prosecution Service to take no action here. While some on the liberal left may get their knickers in a twist over the leaflets, it is technically accurate to say that around 95% of heroin in Britain originally comes from Afghanistan, where about 99% of the population are muslim.

That's not to say of course that drug abuse is all the fault of muslims. There are clearly many white British non-muslim folk who sadly deal in drugs. But the leaflets do point out where the vast majority of heroin in Britain originally comes from. The vast majority of it originally comes from Afghanistan, from evil farmers who cultivate the poppies. Drug traffickers and drug dealers then spread it around across Britain and the rest of the world.

According to a United Nations survey, Afghanistan cultivated 193,000 hectares of opium in 2007 and supplies 93% of the world's opiates. The illegal trade is worth around £1.3bn a year to Afghanistan - one-third of the country's gross domestic product.

The link from a Daily Telegraph article HERE makes a similar point that 95% of Britain's heroin and 80% of Europe's heroin comes from Afghanistan.

The Telegraph article says: "The dealers include Taliban leaders and commanders, as well as Afghan, Iranian and Pakistani traders and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, which fights for the Taliban in northern Afghanistan."

I haven't seen the actual leaflets, which have been distributed in parts of Lancashire, Yorkshire and Cumbria. The leaflets apparently feature a tragic photograph of 21-year-old Rachel Whitear, seen below when she was found crouched on the floor of her flat with a syringe in her hand. She died from what was apparently a heroin overdose. The picture on the right is of Rachel before she got into drugs.

The photographs may be distasteful and shocking to some, but when they were used for an anti-drugs campaign for children in schools the photographs were indeed intended to shock and to act as a wake-up call to any youngsters who may be tempted to indulge in drugs.

I don't personally see anything wrong with leaflets which point out the horrors of heroin and which inform the public as to where the vast majority of the evil dangerous drug originally comes from.

[Hughesy]

Good leaflet - it has to be hard, to hit the point and that one should hit the point for some. I actually thought the woman on the left was a muslim praying at 1st - shocked when i read that its the same girl. Nothing wrong with that leaflet to me.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

No action taken over muslim heroin claims

-swamped-with-cheap-heroin.html"]HERE[/url] makes a similar point that 95% of Britain's heroin and 80% of Europe's heroin comes from Afghanistan.

The Telegraph article says: "The dealers include Taliban leaders and commanders, as well as Afghan, Iranian and Pakistani traders and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, which fights for the Taliban in northern Afghanistan."

There is an implicit link to the spread of Heroin from Afghanistan and the growth of terrorism in the UK.

Research has highlighted that a major heroin transit route exists from the UK Kashmiri population importing drugs via Iran/Turkey through mainland Europe to their adopted UK homeland. Along with the sale of knock-off goods- it remains the greatest source of income for those pedalling the radical terrorist message in the UK.

However, the growth of the Heroin market in Afghanistan is accelerated by the fact that the country has constantly been at war for the past 30 years. Creating ideal political, social and even geo-physical conditions for the exportation of the poppy crop. One fact that seems to elude most people is that the poppy seed from which Heroin is cultivated; flourishes when the earth is disturbed or burnt- both of which is synonymous with bombs, shells etc making Afghanistan the ideal palce to grow the crop.

[Jonnolad]

No action taken over muslim heroin claims

I think that this is some rare common sense from the police and Crown Prosecution Service to take no action here. While some on the liberal left may get their knickers in a twist over the leaflets, it is technically accurate to say that around 95% of heroin in Britain originally comes from Afghanistan, where about 99% of the population are muslim.

I don't personally see anything wrong with leaflets which point out the horrors of heroin and which inform the public as to where the vast majority of the evil dangerous drug originally comes from.

You can't make it up.

The leaflet says people should "heap condemnation" on Muslims and it is time for them to "apologise" as it claims they are responsible for 95% of the world's heroin trade.

The vast majority of cocaine comes from South American countries where the vast majority of people are catholic. Are catholics therefore responsible for Britain's cocaine epidemic? Should we start standing outside catholic churches to "heap condemnation" until they "apologise" too?

Heroin is grown in Afghanistan because of the climate and the economic situation there, cocaine is grown in Bolivia etc because of similar reasons. The religion of country has little, if anything, to do with it.

This leaflet is clearly there to blame muslims for something which has nothing to do with their religion or them. I'm sorry for being blunt but if you cannot understand that you are a moron.

[Billy Castell]

Mabe its to do with the fact that Afghanistan is a haven for the type of muslims who fly planes into buildings, and Al-Queda and that sort of muslim are probably profiting from the trade. Coca has traditional and shamanist uses for some who grow it, so some people are probably not Catholic. The Catholicism of your average Colombian is probably not as important to their identity than an Afghan's Islam.

I hope that made some sort of sense.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

You can't make it up.

The leaflet says people should "heap condemnation" on Muslims and it is time for them to "apologise" as it claims they are responsible for 95% of the world's heroin trade.

This leaflet is clearly there to blame muslims for something which has nothing to do with their religion or them. I'm sorry for being blunt but if you cannot understand that you are a moron.

Firstly you are making a distinction between religion, politics and society- Within tribal Afghanistan and Kashmir this simply doesn’t exist – It is called Islamism.

The other distinction one must make between Cocaine in Columbia & Heroin in Afghanistan – is Cocaine is sold purely to make drugs lords richer, Heroin from Afghanistan is imported into our country by Muslims to partly fund terrorist activity.

I agree with the rest of your posts in regards; to the ideal economic, political and physical conditions that Afghanistan offers.

[colin]

Mabe its to do with the fact that Afghanistan is a haven for the type of muslims who fly planes into buildings,

I thought that those guys were mostly Saudias. As is Osoma Bin Laden.

There now follows a "Thread Diversion Alert" warning.

[Billy Castell]

Maybe the logic is that Afghanistan is a strict Islamic society that shelters all manner of dodgy characters like Bin Laden. They buy weapons with money from the drugs to fight Western soldiers over there. Therefore some Muslims are seeking profits from drugs.

Anyway, I find it odd how people get hold of drugs. Dealers can't exactly advertise on ITV or anything. Same with guns, how do kids get hold of them? Stop people in the street and ask if they have a Colt for sale? I guess I've led a sheltered life.

[Jonnolad]

Firstly you are making a distinction between religion, politics and society- Within tribal Afghanistan and Kashmir this simply doesn’t exist – It is called Islamism.

The other distinction one must make between Cocaine in Columbia & Heroin in Afghanistan – is Cocaine is sold purely to make drugs lords richer, Heroin from Afghanistan is imported into our country by Muslims to partly fund terrorist activity.

Cocaine isn't sold purely "to make drugs lords richer". Ever heard of FARC? They are a huge terrorist organisation in Columbia funded directly by the cocaine trade. The links between cocaine and terrorism in South America is far stronger than that of heroin and terrorism in Afghanistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary...rug_trafficking

Over and above that, the Taliban, whilst in power in Afghanistan actually cut down the production of opium in the country as it didn't agree with their religious ideals. Production has increased dramatically since we went in and overthrew them. Since then however a new "Taliban" has emerged (Taliban is a broad term used by the media to encompass anyone against the occupation of Afghanistan). Parts of this new Taliban are without the religious ideals - they even drink alcohol. They are happy to allow opium to be grown and make money from it. This clearly has absolutely nothing to do with their religion as it goes against it.

Which comes to my point - this leaflet is obviously intended to spread bad feeling against muslims in this country by linking their religion to something it has little, if anything, to do with (imagine giving a catholic grief in this country for the cocaine epidemic in this country?!). It's produced for morons who's only grasp of the real facts are gained from leaflets like this or what some half cut bloke at the bar spouts at their local.

[Billy Castell]

The Colombian military, government and the AUC have been involved in drugs too. However, more and more of the nose sherbet is being grown in Bolivia and Peru, as Colombia gets tough on drugs with the US led Plan Colombia (which started off as a Colombian attempt to make peace with the FARC).

As for the FARC, they started off being a guerilla group fighting a Conservative government that was killing any Liberal Party supporter they could find in the 1950's. The FARC members supported the moves of the assassinated radical Liberal leader Gaitain, who was not a communist but more of a social democrat. Anyway, once the Conservative/mililtary government fell, and the right wing AUC came about, the FARC lost its way, and basically became a terrorist group that got involved with drugs tofund there violence. The FARC have no real aim now no other than to survive.

I don't know what that has to do with the price of eggs, but it might be useful information for some.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Cocaine isn't sold purely "to make drugs lords richer". Ever heard of FARC? They are a huge terrorist organisation in Columbia funded directly by the cocaine trade. The links between cocaine and terrorism in South America is far stronger than that of heroin and terrorism in Afghanistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary...rug_trafficking

Over and above that, the Taliban, whilst in power in Afghanistan actually cut down the production of opium in the country as it didn't agree with their religious ideals. Production has increased dramatically since we went in and overthrew them. Since then however a new "Taliban" has emerged (Taliban is a broad term used by the media to encompass anyone against the occupation of Afghanistan). Parts of this new Taliban are without the religious ideals - they even drink alcohol. They are happy to allow opium to be grown and make money from it. This clearly has absolutely nothing to do with their religion as it goes against it.

Which comes to my point - this leaflet is obviously intended to spread bad feeling against muslims in this country by linking their religion to something it has little, if anything, to do with (imagine giving a catholic grief in this country for the cocaine epidemic in this country?!). It's produced for morons who's only grasp of the real facts are gained from leaflets like this or what some half cut bloke at the bar spouts at their local.

You are talking out your backside. The Taliban are not even from Afghanistan they are originally from Pakistan and are of Pashtun origin.

The Taliban follow an extremist version of Islam called Deobandi which is taught throughout the Madrassas in Pakistan and was part of the reason why the British taxpayer is paying money to re-educate many of the Madrassa followers.

The difference between Columbia and the Afghanistan is that; whilst I accept( to a lesser extent) cocaine finances far-left guerrilla groups in Colombia, the money is spent on fighting the government of Columbia ( in a typical political asymmetrical localised conflict)- The situation in Afghanistan couldn’t be more polarised. UK citizens are importing heroin as means to fund terrorism against there own citizens and other Western citizens that don’t follow there monolithic vision of society.

The Heroin trade is controlled by Islamists the Cocaine trade is controlled by people who couldn’t give two hoots about religion.

[Jonnolad]

You are talking out your backside. The Taliban are not even from Afghanistan they are originally from Pakistan and are of Pashtun origin.

The Taliban follow an extremist version of Islam called Deobandi which is taught throughout the Madrassas in Pakistan and was part of the reason why the British taxpayer is paying money to re-educate many of the Madrassa followers.

Really? Here's a Channel 4 news report from less than a week ago. The important bits are from about 7 mins onwards - with the "Taliban" drinking, gambling and listening to music (all banned by their formerly extremist incarnation):

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/poli...e+enemy/2458502

This report is also important as it mentions the funding of the Taliban from outside countries (Pakistan) not from opium.

Besides which the old fundamentalist Taliban (before they were ousted by us) almost eradicated opium production:

"The area of land given over to growing opium poppies in 2001 fell by 91 per cent compared with the year before, according to the UN Drug Control Programme's (UNDCP) annual survey of Afghanistan. Production of fresh opium, the raw material for heroin, went down by an unprecedented 94 per cent, from 3,276 tonnes to 185 tonnes.

Almost all Afghan opium this year came out of territories controlled by America's ally in the assault on Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance. Because of a ban on poppy farming, only one in 25 of Afghanistan's opium poppies was being grown in Taliban areas."

http://opioids.com/afghanistan/prediction.html

The difference between Columbia and the Afghanistan is that; whilst I accept( to a lesser extent) cocaine finances far-left guerrilla groups in Colombia, the money is spent on fighting the government of Columbia ( in a typical political asymmetrical localised conflict)- The situation in Afghanistan couldn’t be more polarised. UK citizens are importing heroin as means to fund terrorism against there own citizens and other Western citizens that don’t follow there monolithic vision of society.

You are making a huge unlinked jump there though. The Taliban may be benefitting directly from the farmers / middle men in Afghanistan but there is no evidence that once it leaves that country it is profitted by anyone other than criminals. The majority of heroin is brought into the UK by Turkish criminals via Iran. Do you think these established Turkish gangs are suddenly going to give up the most lucrative part of the process for no apparent reason? The Turkish gangs sell to British criminal gangs - where do you suggest these British Jihadi's fit into this new equation and why would the established profiteers allow them too? Not even the BNP are claiming that "UK citizens are importing heroin as means to fund terrorism". The link between terrorism and heroin is wholly within Afghanistan. Even if it were true though (it's not mind), are all muslims to blame, regardless of their own personal beliefs and morals?

I'm intrigued - do you actually think it's reasonable, as the leaflet suggests, to "heap condemnation" on Muslims in this country for the production of heroin in Afghanistan? Should they "apologise" because "they are responsible for 95% of the world's heroin trade"?

Should I pop up to the shop up my road and have a right pop at the asian owner there for this outrage? I suspect he would, quite rightly, think I'm either mad or on drugs for making such a ridiculously tenuous link. Do you not agree?

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Really? Here's a Channel 4 news report from less than a week ago. The important bits are from about 7 mins onwards - with the "Taliban" drinking, gambling and listening to music (all banned by their formerly extremist incarnation):

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/poli...e+enemy/2458502

This report is also important as it mentions the funding of the Taliban from outside countries (Pakistan) not from opium.

Besides which the old fundamentalist Taliban (before they were ousted by us) almost eradicated opium production:

"The area of land given over to growing opium poppies in 2001 fell by 91 per cent compared with the year before, according to the UN Drug Control Programme's (UNDCP) annual survey of Afghanistan. Production of fresh opium, the raw material for heroin, went down by an unprecedented 94 per cent, from 3,276 tonnes to 185 tonnes.

Almost all Afghan opium this year came out of territories controlled by America's ally in the assault on Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance. Because of a ban on poppy farming, only one in 25 of Afghanistan's opium poppies was being grown in Taliban areas."

http://opioids.com/afghanistan/prediction.html

You are making a huge unlinked jump there though. The Taliban may be benefitting directly from the farmers / middle men in Afghanistan but there is no evidence that once it leaves that country it is profitted by anyone other than criminals. The majority of heroin is brought into the UK by Turkish criminals via Iran. Do you think these established Turkish gangs are suddenly going to give up the most lucrative part of the process for no apparent reason? The Turkish gangs sell to British criminal gangs - where do you suggest these British Jihadi's fit into this new equation and why would the established profiteers allow them too? Not even the BNP are claiming that "UK citizens are importing heroin as means to fund terrorism". The link between terrorism and heroin is wholly within Afghanistan. Even if it were true though (it's not mind), are all muslims to blame, regardless of their own personal beliefs and morals?

I'm intrigued - do you actually think it's reasonable, as the leaflet suggests, to "heap condemnation" on Muslims in this country for the production of heroin in Afghanistan? Should they "apologise" because "they are responsible for 95% of the world's heroin trade"?

Should I pop up to the shop up my road and have a right pop at the asian owner there for this outrage? I suspect he would, quite rightly, think I'm either mad or on drugs for making such a ridiculously tenuous link. Do you not agree?

I find our post rather strange. Virtually all the sources I have come across both mainstream academic, left, right all agree that along with counterfeit goods, exporting heroin is the largest source of income for global terrorism.

Before the last Islamic reformation (before 1990). Turkish gangs were by far and away the largest importers of Heroin from Afghanistan into the UK, however this has changed and Kashmiri gangs are monopolizing the market. I have provided numerous sources to back up my claims on the drugs trade been the chief funding tool for global Islamist terror.

As for you banging on about the media and other people calling the Jihadist’s in Afghanistan Taliban- does it really matter what they are called? They are the same Deobandi—Wahhabi Islamists that ground the country of Afghanistan into the dirt. Making it the poorest nation on the planet.

I get the impression that no-matter what evidence is presented to you; that you have made your mind up and will take the same dogmatic approach as many other posters.

Drugs for guns: how the Afghan heroin trade is fuelling the Taliban insurgency

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2679747.stm[/url]-Asians gangs 'targeting heroin trade'

But, I also remarked that Britain appeared to be ravaged by something worse-an evident plague of drug dealing and use all controlled by al Qaeda and a ‘narco terrorist’ distribution network composed of Pakistani Muslims and that vast profits from heroin production and distribution was fueling the Global jihad. Steyn opined that yes, the Global Jihad looked like one vast criminal enterprise. Certainly Dr. Rachel Ehrenfeld has been saying that since her book on Narco Terrorism came out in the early 1990’s.

http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=3135

A UK Government spokesman has stated that Osama Bin Laden 'has been closely involved in the Afghan drugs trade and has encouraged major traffickers in the past to flood Europe and the US as a means of undermining and destabilising'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1590827.stm

Terrorist networks have seized on these advantages of local criminals-turned-Islamic fundamentalists, creating a new model of terrorist funding.

While terrorists and criminal syndicates have different motivations, they both seek financial gain; only terrorists see it as a source of funding their ideological pursuits. As a result, terrorist networks in cooperation with organized crime syndicates generate significant sums of money. Both parties profit from cooperation. Terrorists provide supplies of narcotics, weapons, and contacts with drug-makers and smugglers worldwide. They also provide safe havens for organized crime syndicates, because they often control large territories where there is no rule of law. On the other hand, the terrorists readily and effectively use smuggling routes and undertake, as part of their operations, the illicit trade in goods. Both groups gather and exchange intelligence on corrupt state officials in all branches of government.

Islamic fundamentalists, including al-Qaida members, realize profits from the drug trade in two ways. One is by taking a percentage from the local criminal syndicates, and the other is taking a portion of illicit substances transported towards Western Europe. Profits from those drug sales are used by the terrorists to purchase arms and offer bribes, but increasingly often as well for hiring professional public relations and lobbying firms to come up with political justifications of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists.

http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/dfasa030107.htm

[colin]

As for you banging on about the media and other people calling the Jihadist’s in Afghanistan Taliban- does it really matter what they are called? They are the same Deobandi—Wahhabi Islamists that ground the country of Afghanistan into the dirt. Making it the poorest nation on the planet.

Nothing to do with being invaded by the British a couple of times; the USSR; & then the Americans them?

Just asking.

Edited September 25, 2008 by colin

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Nothing to do with being invaded by the British a couple of times; the USSR; & then the Americans them?

Just asking.

errr- The Taliban are from Pakistan

[thenodrog]

Nothing to do with being invaded by the British a couple of times; the USSR; & then the Americans them?

Just asking.

Isn't it because 90% of the entire country resembles a worked out quarry?

As for class A drugs I don't think they'll ever be stopped even with the death penalty for dealers and long term imprisonment for users. So just try to keep your kids on the right track, clean and safe from users and take heart that the more wasted druggies there are about the more of life's advantages will be available to you and yours. It's a broad and cynical brush but rem Heaven helps them that help themselves.

[thenodrog]

Another reason for decriminalising

Don't highlight the wealth and background Philip and I'm sure you'll agree that they probably all have one thing in common. All will be weak minded wastrals and part of 21st century life's increasing human flotsam and jetsam.

[Jonnolad]

I find our post rather strange. Virtually all the sources I have come across both mainstream academic, left, right all agree that along with counterfeit goods, exporting heroin is the largest source of income for global terrorism.

Before the last Islamic reformation (before 1990). Turkish gangs were by far and away the largest importers of Heroin from Afghanistan into the UK, however this has changed and Kashmiri gangs are monopolizing the market. I have provided numerous sources to back up my claims on the drugs trade been the chief funding tool for global Islamist terror.

As for you banging on about the media and other people calling the Jihadist’s in Afghanistan Taliban- does it really matter what they are called? They are the same Deobandi—Wahhabi Islamists that ground the country of Afghanistan into the dirt. Making it the poorest nation on the planet.

I get the impression that no-matter what evidence is presented to you; that you have made your mind up and will take the same dogmatic approach as many other posters.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.

Anyhow we are obviously getting sidetracked.

The whole point of this discussion is simple - that leaflet. The leaflet stated we should "heap comdenation" on muslims who should "apologise" because "they are responsible for 95% of the world's heroin trade".

Given that we know (included from your own links); that the Taliban are no longer strict adherants of Islam (when they were they cut opium production) and that once it leaves Afghanistan it no longer funds terrorists it instead funds criminals. Knowing this how is it reasonable that we should "heap comdenation" on UK muslims for the world's heroin trade?

Simnple yes or no - do you think the original leafet is reasonable?

Do you in fact think it would be perfectly sensible, as I suggested, for me to go and have a dig at the Asian bloke with the shop up my road for the heroin / terrorism in Afghanistan?

Incidentally, I wouldn't quote http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/ as a news source like you have; a tagline of "Defending Milosevic, Defending Serbia" doesn't exactly shout unbiased IMO!

[thenodrog]

Do you in fact think it would be perfectly sensible, as I suggested, for me to go and have a dig at the Asian bloke with the shop up my road for the heroin / terrorism in Afghanistan?

Yes most definitely if he is driving a Black Veyron or similar with darkened windows.

[ABBEY]

another reason to stay off drugs.

I know it doesnt mention drugs but believe me this murderer used drugs on many occasions allegedly and looking at his pic its hard to believe hes only 39.

[LeChuck]

You can't really justify that Abbey. It says in there he was an ex-soldier...there's just as much logic in suggesting the army taught him to be a killer.

I don't believe either by the way, just making a point.

[thenodrog]

You can't really justify that Abbey. It says in there he was an ex-soldier...there's just as much logic in suggesting the army taught him to be a killer.

I don't believe either by the way, just making a point.

Hardly looks like he has much to contribute to society anymore other than being just another burden on the rest.

[ABBEY]

You can't really justify that Abbey. It says in there he was an ex-soldier...there's just as much logic in suggesting the army taught him to be a killer.

I don't believe either by the way, just making a point.

i can justify it i knew him before his army days and he was a druggie scrote and a nasty SOB back then.

[blue phil]

Nothing to do with being invaded by the British a couple of times; the USSR; & then the Americans them?

Just asking.

Big deal !

There can't be many countries on the planet that hasn't been invaded a number of times over the centuries - (apart from the vastly superior nation of GB , of course )

The main reason why Afghanistan is a messed up nation is that it's unbending culture/religion is stuck in the dark ages .

If no other nation intefered in its affairs ever again it would still remain amongst the most poorest nations on Earth . Backward culture = backward people = backward nation .