[Archived] Drugs

[Gareth]

The difference being that alcoholics are considered as having an illness.

359294[/snapback]

So you wouldn't have a problem with drug addiction if was considered an illness?

[1864roverite]

In my profession its druggies that make 100% of their victims despair at this country.

You work all hours, save your money to buy your wares, your tv,playstation,vcr,sky+ and so on, then some little smackhead, desperate for a bag breaks into your home, your car or whatever and then sells the stolen items for pennies, a very minor percentage of the real value.

Now then gareth if you think that it is acceptable, make your house open all hours to the local smackheads and crackheads.

as for alcoholics, my brother inlaw died aged 34 from this illness. He didnt commit crime to fund his addiction to alcohol, he tried, he worked and he spent every god damned penny he made on beer until it was too late, this depsite repeated help from his family.

I dont see many crack addicts and smackheads seeking the help of their families, seeking to help them stop committing crime, even those on rehab programmes etc. I know this personally, I see it every god damned day of my working life.

I would imagine that 80% of people in this country would not really pass views on alcoholics whereas almost 100% would certainly pass comment of drug addicts.

[joey_big_nose]

No it isn't the "only" solution - it's just the one you prefer .

  Ending drugs prohibition would mean the Gov't actively participating in damaging their own citizens whose health they should really be trying to improve ...

  If a line of coke costs £20 now it would inevitably cost substantially more if sold by the Gov't , thus removing any finncial incentive . How many people would rather buy "dodgy" imported fags and booze than pay the Gov'ts overtaxed version ?  Also let's not stick our heads in the clouds and pretend that the substances would be any safer if sold by the Gov't - they wouldn't . If diluted in any way the punters would simply go back to the stuff provided by the criminals .

  As always , Philip , your approach is half baked , head in the sand nonsense that would only lead to yet another lowering of standards in society .The most logical solution is to try a hard line approach to the problems of drug abuse . Stick the dealers in prison for a very long time ; execute the main dealers ; provide real education to youngsters . Maybe if you had first hand knowledge of what drugs can do to people you wouldn't come up with the non-sensical idea that they should be more readily available and dished out with the approval of the Government . What next - legalise burglary because the police and courts are having a bit of a problem there ...?

359329[/snapback]

Well, and this exposes me as someone who has used cocaine before, a gram sits at about £ 40. This works out at about 8-15 lines I think.

Consumption of cocaine is mostly amongst well off people as far as I understand, and as a result does not result in the low level 'fix' crime 1864 was talking about. That mostly comes with Crack and Heroin use.

I would support a massive toughening of penalties for Crack and Heroin dealing (20 years imprisonment). These drugs are so unbelievably destructive that if there is any chance of eradicating their proliferation then they should be persued. Cocaine should also be eliminated due to the simplicity of the process to turn it into crack.

Ecstacy and Cannabis should be legalised for the simple reason that they appear to cause no more harm than alchohol or tobacco (indeed many studies show a much lower level of damage), and the vast majority of social problems associated with them come from control being in the hands of organised crime, and the huge amount of money it generates.

A strong approach is required, but one based on the premise that it actually protects. The 'gateway' argument- the only one with any real credibility against cannabis and ecstacy- is insuffcient. As far as I understand this is a common opinion amongst police and young people alike- which is remarkable and damming for current legislation.

[LeChuck]

I dont see many crack addicts and smackheads seeking the help of their families, seeking to help them stop committing crime, even those on rehab programmes etc. I know this personally, I see it every god damned day of my working life.

359340[/snapback]

But how many do you know that are like that? I know you're using your brother-in-law as an example of alcoholism (I don't disagree with your views on that) but your opinion on drug addicts seems to have no real-life relevance. I know quite a few people who have/had drug problems, but none of them have resorted to crime. Quite frankly I think you're just taking what you read in the media as gospel regarding drug users.

If being an alcoholic is considered an illness than it's just damn right hypocritical to suggest drug addiction is not one, especially as the body craves ('hard') drugs more than it does alcohol.

Edit: Missed this:

Ecstacy and Cannabis should be legalised for the simple reason that they appear to cause no more harm than alchohol or tobacco (indeed many studies show a much lower level of damage), and the vast majority of social problems associated with them come from control being in the hands of organised crime, and the huge amount of money it generates.

359346[/snapback]

I agree entirely, especially as those two are more likely to be mixed with 'unpure' substances than most other drugs. Edited November 8, 2005 by LeChuck

[joey_big_nose]

As mentioned, alcohol is not safe. Would i prefer my kids to be out drinking and smoking or taking drugs? I know the last place i would want to see them is falling out of a 'fun pub' at midnight after 15 pints of stella - and wheras i don't have any mates that do this sorta thing, i do know a few that blaze crack now and again, with no obvious addiction or side effects.

355158[/snapback]

I would suggest that your friends stop smoking crack.

I know quite a few people who started and around 80% of them became addicted within three or four months.

Now two of them are in jail, and none of them are worth knowing anymore. It is a cancer, and it is no fun having your stuff nicked by someone you used to like in order to feed a habit.

Honestly it is about the worst thing you can do to yourself.

[1864roverite]

well Le C

seeing as your residing in Manchester you really are amongst the minority knowing drug addicts who dont have to commit cime to fund their habits.

You must also live in a crime free zone.

I was in Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool prisons during the past month as part of a government survey into the useage of crack and heroin which also tested the users ability to fund the amount of drugs he was using.

When the results are published around April/May 2006 I am pretty certain your view will change.

An example would be that a street crack addict has an average addiction of £400-£500 per week. How the hell does one fund this addiction ? 88% of all prisoners are unemployed, at least 35% are NOt claiming benefits as they have no need to due to their crime sprees. The ONLY way for them to fund habits like this is for them to commit crime. One lad I spoke to was committing 10-15 house burglaries a week just to get by on crack.

Another lad, and those of us who live in Preston will have read in the LEP, had to commit 5 armed robberies in 7 days just to get by on his addiction which was rising to between £500-£600 a week.

Those are two examples.

Whilst in an unnamed prison, a raid was conducted and £20000 heroin/crack and cannabis was located in the laundry. The ringleader ? serving 5 yrs for possession w/i to supply found a nice niche to support hsi own personal addiction as well as providing for his fellow inmates !

so you see, criminals and druggies are akin to each other.

remove drugs and addicts and remove crime. They go in tandem. No matter what the Police chiefs say, drugs are a major problem on EVERY street corner and out of every 1000 crimes committed in England and Wales, the offender is a drug user/addict on at least 856 occasions.

The facts speak for themselves.

[blue phil]

Good post 1864 and it should put to bed the notion that ALL drugs should be legalised . The Gov't , quite literally , would have to give the drugs away in order to reduce crime ; otherwise the druggies would still have to commit crime to pay for them .

The bottom line is , do we want a situation were the Government is actively participating in destroying the health and well being of the most vulnerable of its own people ? To me that is not the role of any civilised government .

With respect to legalising soft drugs , the jury is still out . The "gateway" argument holds water in my opinion as long as hard drugs are readily available - which they are now and would be even more so if ever they were legalised . Medical opinion , if my memory serves me correct , has lately shifted on the extent of the danger of cannabis ; even the gov't seem to be backtracking on downgrading the classification .

[bb3]

Andy could I just remind you that drugs are illegal and also turn most people who use them into compleate tools, not neccesarily violent or dangerous, but tools non the less.

355252[/snapback]

Not true IMO.

How do you know who is on them and who isn't? Although if you were talking about E's then I would agree,some of the younger lot round town look complete morons,many people I know do coke on a night out and look fine.

I'd say idiots turn into bigger idiots when under the influence of drugs.

A bit like alcohol really.

[Flopsy]

Not true IMO.

How do you know who is on them and who isn't? Although if you were talking about E's then I would agree,some of the younger lot round town look complete morons,many people I know do coke on a night out and look fine.

359374[/snapback]

other than the bulging eyes? the Pupils bigger than saucers, the inabillity to be quite, agressive, delusions of grandeur and they are in fact tools.

[philipl]

Another article about the "mainstream respectability" of drugs. I am passionately anti-drug, I just don't see that prohibition is the way to deal with it.

[dave birch]

philipl, wasn't that article written by another person expressing his opinion, just as those on these boards are doing?

I must admit I chuckled at the quote from the Psychotherapist about whatever drug now being "unfashionable". Says it all, really.

[FourLaneBlue]

  With respect to legalising soft drugs , the jury is still out . The "gateway" argument holds water in my opinion as long as hard drugs are readily available - which they are now and would be even more so if ever they were legalised . Medical opinion , if my memory serves me correct , has lately shifted on the extent of the danger of cannabis ; even the gov't seem to be backtracking on downgrading the classification .

359363[/snapback]

Anything that messes up your mind in such a way is likely to have repercussions if it is abused, whether they are soft drugs or worse. Apparently 25% cannabis users faces a tenfold higher risk of mental illness due to their genetic profile alone.

That said, do the police have the resources to tackle all the cannabis users in the country? Personally I think they should target the more damaging drugs. Booze and pot can ruin lives sure but heroin or crack can really smash them into the ground. I'd presume part of the reason for the 'gateway' argument is that often people can get hard drugs from the very same people who also sell weed. If the cannabis user need not seek out or come into contact with these people they might not be tempted into trying a free hit of smack or whatever by unscrupulous dealers looking for another addicted customer.

[Gareth]

I'd presume part of the reason for the 'gateway' argument is that often people can get hard drugs from the very same people who also sell weed.

359754[/snapback]

I think it comes from the fact that a lot of things seem a good idea when you're stoned!

[blue phil]

I'd presume part of the reason for the 'gateway' argument is that often people can get hard drugs from the very same people who also sell weed. If the cannabis user need not seek out or come into contact with these people they might not be tempted into trying a free hit of smack or whatever by unscrupulous dealers looking for another addicted customer.

359754[/snapback]

That's a fair enough comment , FLB , and I do distinguish between a relatively harmless smoke and the hard stuff . It's the argument that all drugs should be decriminalised that is so stupid . If that were to happen the impressionable punter would only have to move to the next counter .....

[promoted2001]

On the basis that  6,000 people died from drug abuse out of 500,000 habitual drug users over 5 years and 500,000 people died from tobacco out of 18,000,000 habitual users over the same period in the UK, tobacco must be about three times more dangerous on the numbers at the foot of this article.

Apart from that, I think the article re-enforces my view that drugs should be de-criminalised. No doubt David Cameron and George Osborne are wishing they were.

353593[/snapback]

Drugs are illegal, cigs are legal. If Drugs were legal the number of users would go up as would the deaths. Bad idea.

Weeed can be legal as it's not as bad as other drugs.

[joey_big_nose]

Just to add something else to the debat- ecstacy has already been pointed out to be alot less dangerous, at least in the short term (the results for the long term have not come in yet as widespread use only started in the eighties), than alcohol.

Another benefit is that it makes people be extrodinarily nice to one another, I mean unimaginably nice. If Blue Phil and Colin had one each within an hour they would be hugging each other and saying things like "without you man, Im not sure I would have thought so much about all these amazing issues! You bring out the best in me, dude" and discussing the brilliance of house music. That kind of thing.

It does not make people who take it violent or abusive or inflate their egos. It is not addictive. Indeed of all the drugs it is the most benign in terms of effects, although weed hardly creates psychopaths in the way alcohol does either.

Indeed the single largest problem is that lots of people being that nice to each other, all the time, becomes kind of obnoxious and boring. And also, obviously, it is not genuine.

[American]

Drugs are illegal, cigs are legal. If Drugs were legal the number of users would go up as would the deaths. Bad idea.

Weeed can be legal as it's not as bad as other drugs.

360347[/snapback]

Honestly, I don't see how anyone can decide what can be "not as bad" and pick and choose. For me, if you're going to make one thing legal (even alcohol) you should make everything legal. I understand 1864's arguements about the crime, but there are lots of things that cause crime we don't do anything about. Heck, let's ban marriage and relationships, because a lot of murders are done by someone wanting out.

[blue phil]

If Blue Phil and Colin had one each within an hour they would be hugging each other and saying things like "without you man, Im not sure I would have thought so much about all these amazing issues! You bring out the best in me, dude" and discussing the brilliance of house music.

360384[/snapback]

A fate worse than death - and another good reason for making drugs illegal .....

[Dan Furness]

other than the bulging eyes? the Pupils bigger than saucers, the inabillity to be quite, agressive, delusions of grandeur and they are in fact tools.

359404[/snapback]

Its not *always* possible to tell if someone has popped a benny hill, but more often than not you can generally tell. Someone who has took one before can definately tell.

I know people who take colombian marching powder and that is one of the hardest to spot.

[Dan Furness]

Just to add something else to the debat- ecstacy has already been pointed out to be alot less dangerous, at least in the short term (the results for the long term have not come in yet as widespread use only started in the eighties), than alcohol.

Another benefit is that it makes people be extrodinarily nice to one another, I mean unimaginably nice. If Blue Phil and Colin had one each within an hour they would be hugging each other and saying things like "without you man, Im not sure I would have thought so much about all these amazing issues! You bring out the best in me, dude" and discussing the brilliance of house music. That kind of thing.

It does not make people who take it violent or abusive or inflate their egos. It is not addictive. Indeed of all the drugs it is the most benign in terms of effects, although weed hardly creates psychopaths in the way alcohol does either.

Indeed the single largest problem is that lots of people being that nice to each other, all the time, becomes kind of obnoxious and boring. And also, obviously, it is not genuine.

360384[/snapback]

Its mood dependant, if your not in the greatest mind then believe me it does not just make you feel like you love everyone, regardless of knowing them or not

[colin]

(joey_big_nose @ Nov 13 2005, 04:25 )

If Blue Phil and Colin had one each within an hour they would be hugging each other and saying things like "without you man, Im not sure I would have thought so much about all these amazing issues! You bring out the best in me, dude" and discussing the brilliance of house music

.

A fate worse than death - and another good reason for making drugs illegal .....

360418[/snapback]

I think I'd need a monster spliff for this to happen.

But don't worry Phil, I'm quite presentable in the correct light (which is complete darkness)

[BuckyRover]

I love drugs

[joey_big_nose]

Its mood dependant, if your not in the greatest mind then believe me it does not just make you feel like you love everyone, regardless of knowing them or not

360774[/snapback]

Ive never come across that but I have heard of people spooning out a bit. Still nothing compared to alcohol anyways.

So to clarify normally people love each other, or at least are happier and have a larger desire to plese.

[Dan Furness]

Ive never come across that but I have heard of people spooning out a bit. Still nothing compared to alcohol anyways.

So to clarify normally people love each other, or at least are happier and have a larger desire to plese.

360837[/snapback]

spooning out?

[Ste B]

Its mood dependant, if your not in the greatest mind then believe me it does not just make you feel like you love everyone, regardless of knowing them or not

360774[/snapback]

No Dan, it makes you look like a complete tool in the Golden Cross on a Friday night.