[Archived] Tugay - Who Next?

[LeChuck]

I agree that they're not entirely the same and I admit to being a little superficial in the comparison, but that's because my main point was about the goal threat coming from wide players cutting in whilst the full backs overlap, meaning the central area isn't relied upon to score goals. The intricate make-up of the central area wasn't really pivotal to my argument so I didn't feel the need to go into detail. Having said that, I don't think I could possibly go into as much detail as you did anyway, so it's probably a lucky coincidence I didn't need to.

One main point I would disagree with, however; I think you're severely understating the work Vieira went through at Arsenal. If we're working with two basic categories of a holding player and a box-to-box player then he would firmly fit into the latter in my opinion, in fact his relatively poor form with Juventus and France was attributed by many people to the fact that he was asked to hold the midfield as opposed to playing box-to-box. I certainly wouldn't say Savage plays a more advanced role than what was asked of Vieira in his Arsenal days. Incidently I'd also throw Sissoko into that category, but I don't feel Liverpool's midfield has relevance to what I was trying to say so I won't go into that any more.

Also, whilst I don't disagree with your assessment of Tugay's contribution to the team, I think this is more due to the attributes Tugay possesses, I don't think he could play that position any other way. I'm almost positive that, if Hughes had the choice, he would sacrifice a considerable amount of Tugay's creativeness for an equal amount of Mokoena's bite in the tackle. Of course that is hypothetical at present, but I'm guessing it could be proved right when the eventual replacement is brought in.

Edited October 2, 2006 by LeChuck

[Drakefyre]

Ideally, Andrea Pirlo would be who we're looking for. Or his cheaper, less talented, Albanian cousin.

[Ronin]

Don't see why we don't sign Tugay on for another year. As Pleasure said our return to form has coincided with his appearances in the team, and his knowledge could/should be passed down come the day he hangs up his boots.

[Cheshireblue]

More down to the back four gelling and the front two tearing their defence to pieces with their movement - even Jeffers got in on the act on Sunday.

Yes, Tugay can pass, but the amount of times players waltz past him is beyond a joke - I'd play him in a five man midfield, but not in a four, it puts too much pressure on the other three players.

As for Savage not being there as a goal threat - well I think you'll find that's my point, ideally you're getting 5 goals a season from one of your central midfielders. If nothing else their late runs create space for other players.

You don't need 5 goals a season from a central midfielder when your two wide men are both looking like getting 10 goals each this year. Given that Tugay is getting on and in my view can only realistically play 75 minutes a week, I think you will see that Reid/Savage will both end up on the scoresheet at some point in the season.

40 from your 5 forwards in total, 20 from your wide men and say another 10/15 from everybody else, and you have a pretty good goal haul for the season. Certainly one that will only be added to if Tugay can be allowed to play football and protected by the likes of Savage and Mokoena.

As GAV states above, Tugay has never been a prolific defender. He puts his foot in where needed, but he has never been able catch the likes of Henry. He still reads the game well and has a habit of being in the right place at the right time.

Tugay and Dunny are the two players we need for that central midfield role. Between them, we'd get a full season for the next season or so, and that would see us through nicely.

[rover6]

I agree that they're not entirely the same and I admit to being a little superficial in the comparison, but that's because my main point was about the goal threat coming from wide players cutting in whilst the full backs overlap, meaning the central area isn't relied upon to score goals. The intricate make-up of the central area wasn't really pivotal to my argument so I didn't feel the need to go into detail.

Oops, sorry, didn't read your post in context, hence the irrelevant points. I get what you mean now.

I was reading up on Tugay's career (as you do) and it's easy to forget what a successful one it's been. He's won like five Turkish leagues and 4 domestic cups (two double triumphs I think). ANd he's got all those international caps. Not to mention the Worthy Cup with us.

I'd have loved to see him play in his heyday when he was banging in double figures from midfield and his seemingly mandatory position in the national team was in jeopardy due to his 'wild man' reputation.

Edited October 4, 2006 by rover6

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

I think people under-estimate Tugay's defensive abilities. Yes he doesn't go flying in for tackles - as Reid or Savage do - but how many times do you see him nip the ball off the toes of an opposing player ? His positional play is also excellent - which is half the job. Comparisons with Carrick are jusitified - as neither player really flies into tackles - but their defensive game is more about positioning.

For Tugay only becomes a liability when players don't move for him - this is often when he gets caught in possession. As long as we maintain our pass and move - he will continue to shine - and even given his advancing years be one of the best creative central midfield players in the Premiership - especially outside the top 4 teams (we are VERY lucky to have him).

The one attribute he has never had is pace - and this is where Reid playing centre-mid helps considerably. Having said that - Savage actually looks like the player that MH paid £3m for - at last so will be hard to displace.

Edited October 4, 2006 by DavidMailsTightPerm

[philipl]

You don't need 5 goals a season from a central midfielder when your two wide men are both looking like getting 10 goals each this year. Given that Tugay is getting on and in my view can only realistically play 75 minutes a week, I think you will see that Reid/Savage will both end up on the scoresheet at some point in the season.

40 from your 5 forwards in total, 20 from your wide men and say another 10/15 from everybody else, and you have a pretty good goal haul for the season. Certainly one that will only be added to if Tugay can be allowed to play football and protected by the likes of Savage and Mokoena.

As GAV states above, Tugay has never been a prolific defender. He puts his foot in where needed, but he has never been able catch the likes of Henry. He still reads the game well and has a habit of being in the right place at the right time.

Tugay and Dunny are the two players we need for that central midfield role. Between them, we'd get a full season for the next season or so, and that would see us through nicely.

100% agree.

There were two passes from Tugay against Salzburg which were utterly sublime and for me were the highlights of the game. I wouldn't rule out Tugay ending this season with 3 goals or more either. I expect someone is not going to close him down on the edge of the box from corners this season and will pay the penalty for it.

[RoyRover]

One creative player that I can think of that could be a good signing would be Vikash Dhorasoo. The guy has fallen out with PSG and would be a possibility as a creative player in our midfield. He wouldn't be the long term replacement for Tugay, as he is around 32, but he's a player that I've always liked.

[RovertheHill]

Tugay has been one of my favourite players to watch at Ewood - even including the championship winning team and when he went through his "invisible friend" spell! But he's getting on and we need a replacement creative midfielder. Unfortunately, I think we sold his natural successor - not Wee Barry but Dunny. Who would you like to see at Rovers in the role of creative midfielder (that we could afford and would come here). That new fella at West Ham looks decent - but they don't look like they're going down anytime yet!

Well I started this thread 2 and a half years ago thinking we might get another year out of Toogs and I was bemoaning the fact that we'd sold Dunny. He's the best we've got in this role at the moment but I doubt he'll ever recover to the levels he was at. Benayoun was the other player I referred to.

Anyway, here we are in 2008 and although Everton get lots of bodies behind the ball we didn't look like breaking them down. In fact, the only time I thought we did was when Toogs came on. So we definitely need someone in the Summer that can get the ball down and play it. Start looking now Mark!

[joey_big_nose]

Well I started this thread 2 and a half years ago thinking we might get another year out of Toogs and I was bemoaning the fact that we'd sold Dunny. He's the best we've got in this role at the moment but I doubt he'll ever recover to the levels he was at. Benayoun was the other player I referred to.

Anyway, here we are in 2008 and although Everton get lots of bodies behind the ball we didn't look like breaking them down. In fact, the only time I thought we did was when Toogs came on. So we definitely need someone in the Summer that can get the ball down and play it. Start looking now Mark!

He has been for ages! Only serios target on this front so far has been Huddlestone I think. Ramos seems to like him a lot (played him both in midifeld and defence) so he won't be coming here.

[herbergeehh]

If we can't break them down going through the middle, Bentley and Pedersen needs to be our main men - with Emerton and Warnock filling in from behind to create two on ones. Reid and Dunn are both decent players, but they haven't got the passing ability of Tugay - both of them are runners not passers to be honest. Our one-touch play has been brilliant at times though, and as I said, with Bentley in particular, we just need to get him into decent positions and trust Santa Cruz + partner to convert.

[joey_big_nose]

If we can't break them down going through the middle, Bentley and Pedersen needs to be our main men - with Emerton and Warnock filling in from behind to create two on ones. Reid and Dunn are both decent players, but they haven't got the passing ability of Tugay - both of them are runners not passers to be honest. Our one-touch play has been brilliant at times though, and as I said, with Bentley in particular, we just need to get him into decent positions and trust Santa Cruz + partner to convert.

Our neatest player through the middle at the moment is McCarthy. In light of the fact we have no central midfield I might be tempted to play a line like this if Dunn needs to come off early in a game again, or even just to try something different.

----------Cruz------Roberts

Pedersen----------McCarthy------Bentley

---------------Reid

Warnock---Samba---Ooijer---Emerton

---------------------Freidal

If McCarthy shows the sort of work rate he did against Everton this could not expose us too much defensively. Also out lack of options is such that we need to make the most of what we have (which is lots of strikers and few midfielders!)

Benni has the ability to pick a pass and draw out the opponenets defence.

[OscarRaven]

Your joking right? Benni does not have the energy levels required for midfield. Roberts and Cruz are too similar (not in a good way). What we need is to stop playing square pegs in round holes and buy a creative midfielder to play along side Reid.

[joey_big_nose]

Your joking right? Benni does not have the energy levels required for midfield. Roberts and Cruz are too similar (not in a good way). What we need is to stop playing square pegs in round holes and buy a creative midfielder to play along side Reid.

My point is we can't do that till the summer. As we only have three round pegs and an axe we are going to have to compramise at some point probably starting with next weekend. Dunn and Pedersen are both suspended...

[den]

No contract offer yet.

Apparently he would like another season.

[krislu]

Apparently he would like another season.

I bet he would, but we ain't a nursing home for over-the-top footballers. Give the man a worthy goodbye and bring in some fresh legs.

[S15]

I bet he would, but we ain't a nursing home for over-the-top footballers.

That we are not. Isn't that right Yorkey, Dino, Youri, Hakan, Stephane (Henchoz btw), Javier, Tugs....

[LeChuck]

That we are not...Tugs....

You were on a roll until that one. What happened to Lorenzo anyway?

[S15]

He wasn't OTT;

He was damn finest centre half I've ever seen in Blue and White halfs.

I also intentionally didn't mention Dario Marcolin, who single handedly nearly saved us from the drop.

Rubber dinghy man he was not.

[rover6]

Assuming Tugay was fit for the last game, Moko and Vogel were preferred over the Old Turk to sit on the bench. So, just going on that, it doesn't look great for Tugay.

I would prefer us to move on. Let him go back to Gala and have his swansong.

[RovertheHill]

I really didn't think when I started this topic that we would still not have found a decent replacement for Tugay by the end of 2008. But we haven't - and the difference he made when he came on against Sunderland was akin to introducing an adult into a kids team. Whoever the manager is in January absolutely needs to get us a ball-playing playmaker. I know Nicko has said that Benayoun is on 70k a week at Liverpool but he isn't playing so maybe he could be prised away for less (wishful thinking goggles on!)

[Amo]

Should have signed Arteta when we had the chance.

[T4E]

Mendes was the one we should have got - realistic in financial terms.

Benayoun would be brilliant - but it doesn't sound viable.

[CrazyIvan]

Should have signed Arteta when we had the chance.

I wish we had signed him too.