[Archived] Id Cards

[blue phil]

The decision to implement these ID cards seems to have been put off to the end of the decade - by which time the Labour Government will be , thankfully , out of office .

The fact that they would go ahead with it given the chance perfectly illustrates the importance to democracy and feedom of ridding ourselves of this disgusting rabble .

[Billy Castell]

It's a rare thing Phil, but I agree. All the terror laws, attempts to curb jury trials, increase in Speed cameras and CCTV etc. are just chipping away at the liberty of citizens of this country. I propose that people should kidnap government ministers, lock them in a cell for 40 days and ask them about any plots for violence. And ask if they have any family history of heart problems etc. for a 'consumer survey' for good measure. We should point out to them that failure to answer these questons would look bad later on. After 40 days, we will release them without explanation or apology. Then we'd see how they like it.

[yoda]

It's a rare thing Phil, but I agree. All the terror laws, attempts to curb jury trials, increase in Speed cameras and CCTV etc. are just chipping away at the liberty of citizens of this country. I propose that people should kidnap government ministers, lock them in a cell for 40 days and ask them about any plots for violence. And ask if they have any family history of heart problems etc. for a 'consumer survey' for good measure. We should point out to them that failure to answer these questons would look bad later on. After 40 days, we will release them without explanation or apology. Then we'd see how they like it.

Then we'd see how they like it!

They should be truly thankfull we did it to them

[Jimbo]

I doubt the police force have the luxury of wasting time taking the p*ss out of decent citizens.

No, they'd rather just shoot them in the head seven times.

[BuckyRover]

The flip side of it is that we don't have these ID cards and it's hard to locate real terrorists and criminals. I don't see what this 'civil liberty' jargon is all about to be honest... unless you are doing something that makes you concerned to have one of these ID cards! Also, have you been asked in particular about your plots for violence? I doubt the police force have the luxury of wasting time taking the p*ss out of decent citizens.

That's why need to be afraid.

Sheep.

It will be a fiasco if it ever comes to fruition.

[American]

Totally agree, Bucky. It scares me more that people are willing to have their freedoms taken away.

[baarree]

good idea

[Jimbo]

If you're too idle to research this yourself, I suggest you start here then look here and then make an informed decision on who you would trust with all your data.

As quoted by Benjamin Franklin "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

Edited July 11, 2008 by Jimbo

[Flopsy]

its all right ID cards are there to stop terrorism, compleatly missing the point that they are

1) not going to stop a british citizen with a bomb;

2) not going to stop a foreign type here on holiday/work with a bomb;

3) not going to protect you from a bomb; and

4) a complete waste of money

Edited July 11, 2008 by Flopsy

[Bazzanotsogreat]

When the political right & left both agree that a proposal is a bad idea, then you know that it has little chance of working.

ID cards are ultimately flawed in trying to stop terrorists, however- the more cynical amongst may believe that ID cards aren’t aimed at stopping terrorists in any case…..

[stuwilky]

The flip side of it is that we don't have these ID cards and it's hard to locate real terrorists and criminals. I don't see what this 'civil liberty' jargon is all about to be honest... unless you are doing something that makes you concerned to have one of these ID cards! Also, have you been asked in particular about your plots for violence? I doubt the police force have the luxury of wasting time taking the p*ss out of decent citizens.

Back to my original point: exactly what freedom is being taken away? I'm not being argumentative here for the sake of it, but I genuinely don't see a problem with it personally.

What benefit is there to ID cards, particularly in the fight to stop terrorism?

[stuwilky]

I see your point, but they could potentially stop things like identity theft and make it easier for certain services, such as aircraft training lesson, to be prevented to those on terrorist watch list, etc. I can only assume that they were intended to be used in this manner.

They could also use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Anyone in favour of ID cards answer me this; How can ID cards be successfully implemented the government doesn’t even have a clue ho many people actually live in the UK?

Additionally, they currently have even less of a clue as to who should be here & who shouldn’t.

[yoda]

Anyone in favour of ID cards answer me this; How can ID cards be successfully implemented the government doesn’t even have a clue ho many people actually live in the UK?

Additionally, they currently have even less of a clue as to who should be here & who shouldn’t.

They can't

They don't

and

They never will!

complete waste of time and money!

[yoda]

I would estimate that stopping terrorist activities requires a lot more sophistication than your simple anology justifies.

And that is why Id cards won't stop a terrorist!

[Bazzanotsogreat]

I would estimate that stopping terrorist activities requires a lot more sophistication than your simple anology justifies.

You’re missing the point; a piece of plastic is not going to stop home-grown terrorists who are UK nationals. The government needs to channel its funds into a designated ethnic-integration police task-force. Which it will not as it would be deemed being not ‘politically-correct’.

Who solely concentrate on issues such integration, stemming the tide of radical ideologies, policing religious figures ( making sure these people are vetted & monitored) stopping the flow of narcotics & knock offs from abraod- which funds terrorism & ultimately force individuals who do not want to be part of a democracy out of the country or into prison ( should they break the law).

[stuwilky]

Like I said, I don't know how these cards would work exactly, but if it was to help in stopping them access to certain services or things that were essential to their activities then I wouldn't be against these ID cards.

If it was to do that then it might have a purpose. But it wont, as service providers are unlikely to have access to the data.....

... go figure.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Like I said, I don't know how these cards would work exactly, but if it was to help in stopping them access to certain services or things that were essential to their activities then I wouldn't be against these ID cards. Don't forget that the 9/11 bombers were on a terrorist watch-list yet they were still allowed access to piloting lessons.

Yes, but they were foreign nationals on holiday, how could this work- you would have to do thorough check on every single tourist who were to take flying lessons each. I can't see where ID cards would work. As far as the hamburg cell- some where on CIA watchlist other weren't.

[broadsword]

Just another tool to scare the population.

The government has proved time and time again that it can't manage any IT project.

Undoubtedly some data would get screwed up. Who fancies spending over a month in a cell because their details got mixed up with someone else's?

I see no advantages in stopping terrorism, and only disadvantages (impaired liberty, probability of errors, enormous cost, poor utility especially given cost).

Please no, we don't want them. I hate my government, I just cannot wait for them to get kicked out, they are useless. They waste so much damn cash it's unbelievable. I am definitely having a party the day that fool gets kicked out of number 10.

[yoda]

True, in which case the only solution to that would be global ID cards (required to enter any country) which would be impossible to implement I imagine.

You mean like passports!

[broadsword]

Gotta laugh.

How about instead of an iris scan, a sphincter scan? If you're an azzhole, you don't get in?

[sijoco]

Nothing but bandwagon negativity, Bryan. Instead of just running down an idea to try and make things run more smoothly, how about suggesting your own?

Edit: And nobody has given a good reason here as to exactly what freedom is being given up if ID cards were introduced. There is no evidence that you would be monitored like a drone. Too much paranoia...

I think the point here celaeno is what advantages are there in such a system? We're pretty sure it'll have little if any effect on terrorism as was proven in Spain. The only one's that will be penalised are the one's who's ID is stolen, those who forget to inform whoever when they change some specific detail in other words everyday normal people.

"ID does not establish intention. Competent criminals and terrorists will be able to subvert the identity system. Random outrages by individuals can't be stopped. Ministers agree that ID cards will not prevent atrocities. A blank assertion that the department would find it helpful is not an argument that would be entertained for fundamental change in any other sphere of government but national security. Where is the evidence? Research suggests there is no link between the use of identity cards and the prevalence of terrorism, and in no instance has the presence of an identity card system been shown a significant deterrent to terrorist activity. Experts attest that ID unjustifiably presumed secure actually diminishes security." Link

So, if the reason for it's introduction is actually a reason against, then why spend millions (that could be spent on more worth while needs) on it in the first place?

[sijoco]

Just to explain, I'm a techie and I have a big passion for using technology to simplify processes. That is the real reason I would support ID cards, although I'm not blowing the trumpet for it stopping terrorism, just speculating how it might.

It would cost millions of course, to implement these, but I think it would be an investment whereby it can make things stealthily cheaper by centralising data and speeding up processes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we now pay something like £80 for our passports? An ID card would be a similar cost perhaps (no engraved burgandy coverings/laminated pages etc). I don't believe looking at it as a "direct" cost is something to be put off by...

I'm a techie too and l can see where you're coming from regarding the centralisation of data (god knows it's saved me hours of work working in Local Government ) but the selling point the Government is terrorism. It just seems to be a typical kneejerk reaction from an already untrustworthy government (is there such a thing as a trustworthy one lol). The thing that bothers me is if my "ID" is stolen, l get a "visit" and get banged up for god knows how many days they can hold you for now. We know how easy identity theft is now but the worst that happens is you end up a few hundred quid down. Someone steals your ID and your looking at a very uncomfortable stay at her majesties pleasure. It's unnecessary, l have a passport, a NINO, a driving licence etc, as soon as you pull them all together then the damage that is possible is frightening.

[American]

Nothing but bandwagon negativity, Bryan. Instead of just running down an idea to try and make things run more smoothly, how about suggesting your own?

Edit: And nobody has given a good reason here as to exactly what freedom is being given up if ID cards were introduced. There is no evidence that you would be monitored like a drone. Too much paranoia...

Even if you are slightly monitored, that is too much. The government doesn't need to know who I am, what I'm doing or where I'm going. There are a lot of places where they have more information about me than they should have, but it is because I allowed them to - they didn't force me.

Few people know, but in the US you don't even have to give an ID to fly. Sure, you will have to end up singing "Moon River" but it isn't compulsory.

And the bigger question isn't "what does it take away?" it is "what does it help?"

[philipl]

I run techie companies and I know the capacity of techies to screw things up totally, especially if the Government with their utterly clueless spec-writers are the customer.

Besides which I had to get my hair cut and frown before my passport photo would biometrically scan. Give it three months and it will look nothing like more normal happy self.