[Archived] Id Cards

[Eddie]

I think they are nonsense when it comes to counter terrorism, agree with everyone on that, but I just think as a basic idea they are quite useful.

[bb3]

That's a fair enough comment Eddie but the fact that they are quite useful is no argument for them being compulsory as you stated in your last post.

And I very much doubt that's the reason behind them.

[Glenn]

Glenn mentioned Air Traffic Control and "disaster waiting to happen" in one post (shudder). The bloody morons used a hard-to-read font on the ATC screens, so that sometimes ATC's have directed aircraft towards each other.

374974[/snapback]

That was only a tiny part. The IT press has been screaming about Swanick since the mid nineties. 6 Years Overdue ! 1 year to fix 1400 known bugs ! Cost was £600m, more than double the initial buget !

... and that's a tiny project compared to a national records database.

And I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this weeks hot topic of the CRB failing to difereniate between someone cautioned for looking "non-UK-legal-porn" (i.e. against the OPA, but "acceptable" in the vast majority of countries) and a convicted kiddie-fiddler, along with the fact that the "human" secondary check made on this info is left to a politician rather than an expert.

Now, if the LSE has updated it's esimate from £300 to £500, you can bet the "charge" for a card will be around the £35 mark. So is the short fall going to come from a tax increase or by selling access to the database to 3rd parties. Oddly enough, I'm not in favour of either.

[Glenn]

I also resent being tracked on databases, which is why I don't have loyalty cards and try to pay cash when I can - maybe I'm just being narky.

374974[/snapback]

Oddly enough. I don't actually mind this. The important thing is I have the choice NOT to have a loyalty card and the choice to shop elsewhere.

It looks like I won't have a choice about wether I have to have an ID card and I won't have a choice of how it is secured (short of amputating my finger and gounging out my eyes).

[FourLaneBlue]

I think they are nonsense when it comes to counter terrorism, agree with everyone on that, but I just think as a basic idea they are quite useful.

374984[/snapback]

Why are they quite useful? As yet another form of ID? I've plenty of those as does everyone else so it is no use paying shedloads for another.

Edited January 16, 2006 by FourLaneBlue

[Eddie]

I've already mentioned this and I don't want to repeat myself too many times but I actually find the french version to be quite useful. For travel within the EU and daily use it's much more useful than a passport or even a drivers license for the reasons I've already said: everyone will have one regardless of age and it is easier to carry around than a passport and you can always have it on you.

[FourLaneBlue]

In other words it's not going to be worth the hundreds of millions (at least) spent on it then? Nice having an alternative to carrying your passport with you but surely a bit much to pay?

[bb3]

Eddie-you are for ID cards because you find them useful,that's fair enough,but I don't want one,you said that they are useless when fighting terrorism,I'd say they the same about illegal immigrants,so for what reason should I be forced to carry one?

There must be another reason than just the fact that they are useful,they are not being forced on us to make our lives easier when we go to a bank.

[Flopsy]

CRB's run by Crapita - it would be funny if it wasnt so serious the amount of (Please don't use that word again)ups and cockups that goes on there

[Gareth]

The House of Lords have voted to force the govt to disclose the full costs of ID cards before they can become law.

We'll have to see if the govt are able to overturn this in the Commons (hope not).

[joey_big_nose]

The way one of my mates, who works in the home office, explained it to me was that the main reason for the cards were to clamp down on benefit fraud. Apparently there are around fifty million who qualify for NI numbers but there are 80million in circulation...

I personally really dont like the idea of them. They proper relationship between the public and the government is that the government serves the public. The introduction of ID cards skews it to being more of a case of the public serving the government, subject to their invasions of privacy.

Also while if used responsibly they present a real resource the scope for abuse is enormous.

[dave birch]

JBN, think about it, there are lots of Britsh people living abroad, each one, potentially, has an NI number. A lot of them will also have died without any notification to any British Government authority. So the figures you quote aren't out of the ordinary, it's just that no one has kept track of them.

[Glenn]

Isn't the biggest type of benefit fraud undeclared earnings (aka cash-in-hand payments) ? Surely the number of people using someone elses NI number is far less than those using none what so ever ?

Unless of course you started making cash an unviable alternative to electronic payments and started linking the National Database into Bank and retail systems. Banks and retail of course could already be tied into the system because they'll need access to the info for "fraud prevention" reasons. Thus making it possible to track every monetry transaction in the country.

OK, so that's a little far fetched ..... but only a little. I'll get my coat tin foil hat.

[Gareth]

There’s a great post on the Obsolete blog on the numerous justifications that the government has tried to come up with for ID cards, all of which have been pulled apart.

It also has this:

Perhaps the best criticism though came from Lord Philips, who quoted a Labour politician who attacked the then Tory plans for ID cards by saying the money should be used on more police instead. That Labour politician? Tony Blair.

If the Tories do it it’s a bad idea, if Bliar does it it’s a good idea…

[dave birch]

I find this thread most interesting. Not because of the subject matter, but because of the political leanings of those proposing and opposing the ID card.

In Britain, you have a Labour Government doing the proposing and the Tories opposing it.

We, in Australia, had a Labor Prime Minister (Bob Hawke) trying to bring in a similar card in the 90's and the then Liberal (read Tory) opposition being vehemently against it. Now, the present Liberal government wants to introduce an ID card, I'm not sure where the Labor Party currently stands on the issue.

So, we have our Liberals doing a 180 degree turn on this issue, and guess what, it's going to cost us.

[Sydney Rovers]

Yes. Although mine seems to carry a picture of Eminem, rather than me. What was i thinking 8 years ago with that bleach?

373123[/snapback]

What's surprising is that the photo hasn't been updated in that time Any idea when you have to renew your licence and get a new photo? Edited January 18, 2006 by Sydney Rovers

[Sydney Rovers]

I find this thread most interesting. Not because of the subject matter, but because of the political leanings of those proposing and opposing the ID card.

In Britain, you have a Labour Government doing the proposing and the Tories opposing it.

We, in Australia, had a Labor Prime Minister (Bob Hawke) trying to bring in a similar card in the 90's and the then Liberal (read Tory) opposition  being vehemently against it. Now, the present Liberal government wants to introduce an ID card, I'm not sure where the Labor Party currently stands on the issue.

So, we have our Liberals doing a 180 degree turn on this issue, and guess what, it's going to cost us.

375507[/snapback]

[Political rant mode]The Liberal Party doing a 180 on an issue, that's never happened before *cough GST*

Also interesting to see that the reason for implementing card in Australia and the UK are very similar.

[philipl]

The funny thing is the biometric data.

It is pretty asccurate but not 100%. If you are using it in a criminal trial, a 99% chance of nailing the suspect would seem pretty good using DNA evidence.

But transpose that to a population of 60 million and 600,000 people (or everybody in Burnley, Blackburn, Preston and Bolton) are suddenly not who they think they are according to their ID card!

Sorry folks, ID cards do not work. Perhaps it is not surprising that the IT industry's most respected commentators are amongst the people most vehemently opposed to ID cards.

[andy82]

What's surprising is that the photo hasn't been updated in that time  Any idea when you have to renew your licence and get a new photo?

375516[/snapback]

I have 2 and a half years left, so every ten years.

[Gareth]

According to the Irish paper the Evening Echo, if the ID Cards Bill is passed, then Ireland will adopt ID cards as well, albeit on a voluntary basis for those who regularly visit the UK.

Hmm… the English oppressing the Irish, why does that seem familiar?

[blue phil]

Oppression on a voluntary basis that is .....

[broadsword]

I've already mentioned this and I don't want to repeat myself too many times but I actually find the french version to be quite useful.

375100[/snapback]

I've got a key fob that opens bottles - I find that quite useful, but I idn't have to pay a ridiculous amount of money for it. And it actually serves a purpose.

You keep on mentioning the word "useful", but I don't detect any reasoning as to why this is, or why it's a justification for it.

[joey_big_nose]

According to the Irish paper the Evening Echo, if the ID Cards Bill is passed, then Ireland will adopt ID cards as well, albeit on a voluntary basis for those who regularly visit the UK.

Hmm… the English oppressing the Irish, why does that seem familiar? 

376020[/snapback]

I am not sure what you have just said there is entirely rational.

Im against the cards but we would hardly be opressing the Irish to have them if they came into our country, it would just mean that everybody would be on an even keel.

[philipl]

Some pretty scary stuff about the future of US passports and UK data surveillance. Every week there are stories of thousands of data records being stolen from places like hospitals where hard-pressed under paid clerks are just trying to shuffle the paperwork.

HSBC leaving thousands of unshredded papers in the skip outside a central London Branch was a good one as well.

[Gareth]

ID cards are on their way...

Ministers have won a Commons vote making it compulsory for people to be given ID cards - and put on a register - when they apply for passports.

Earlier, MPs approved a measure requiring new legislation before ID cards are made compulsory for all.