[Archived] Club Up For Sale?

[Paul]

Do we have to go round that loop again?

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See no reason why not philip, theno's been living off it for years

[JAL]

Were is the town of Blackburn going ? Were is the industry, the vibrant business, to me its dying on its knees and has been for many a year now.

Inviting Afghanistan farmers to the town recently says it all about Blackburn showing them their impact on Blackburn life by growing opium.

Vote Labour ........go on Jack leads us to the abyss along with uncle Tony and his cronies.

Were are we going? were is the town of Blackburn going ? the attendances are just as much political as they are leisure and recreation.

[trs]

It seems like the dingles have picked up on the story and judging by their response (clarets mad) they have us closing down by weekend and themselves becoming top dogs in east lancs.

[Florida Rover]

Philip correct me if I'm wrong in these figures but try this one on for size:

Blackburn Rovers are in no way form or shape a conventional business.

1) Ownership- the Walkers got agreement from the existing £1m share capital holders to issue additional shares at par thereby swamping the original holders. I think the ratio is now something like 95m:1m as the original holders have stayed in and enjoyed the ride whilst the Walkers have never had any interest to get rid of the minority . That is why Blackburn Rovers remains an unlisted PLC.

2) Value- my guess a fair value for the club would be £60m on an asset basis (book value of players and real estate) but a business losing money at the rate Rovers do obviously trades at a discount to its asset value. On the basis that, clubs like Rangers or Liverpool or Everton have recently been valued around the £70m mark , I'd put Rovers' fair price at £30m to £40m at most.

3) The crunch about Rovers is what is in Jack Walker's will. What little we know is that there is a capital trust fund within the Walker Trust which nobody can touch and is generating £3m of income a year for the Rovers. There is language requiring the Trustees to do their best for the Rovers from the distribution of profits of the huge array of Walker Companies (from walker aviation through property development to many very exciting high tech companies) which is how the club regularly comes by zero interest loans which subsequently get turned into share capital- some £40m since the great man died. This also means the club is able to get bank debt at ridiculous low interest rates as it is backed by the Trust. There is also the requirement for Rovers to be a commercial enterprise.

4) My guess is that the Walker Will nearly makes it impossible for anyone to buy the Rovers- unless the highly diversified trust collapses (and the Walker family live comfortably but far from extravagently by the way). Jack will have written huge safeguards into his Will regarding the Rovers which makes it all but impossible to buy the Rovers.

I think there is the possibility of a very exciting formula for somebody wanting to high roll a top European club using the Rovers as a vehicle.

The Walkers are not interested in publicity or any of the trappings which go with ownership of a top sporting franchise.

I think if somebody has £200m to play with, they should do a long lease deal with the Walker Trust for Blackburn Rovers- the underpinning from the Trust would remain in place for when the lease expires (to keep in accordance with Jack's will) but uniquely, every penny invested by the lessees would go into advancing the club commercially and on the football field. The lessee would become the public ownership face of the club and would stand a much higher probability of sporting success from a base at Ewood (where winning trophies does happen) compared with most other places in Europe. Getting into the £20m+ a year Euro competition would give a sporting chance of preserving the £200m outlay as well!

A better question to me is who is willing to make such an investment?

Florida Rovers

P.S. does this idea make sense or is it madcap?

Edited March 2, 2006 by Florida Rover

[jim mk2]

Only Jack's testators will have any legitimate right to know the content of his Will.

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Eh ?

A testator is someone who makes a will. Presumably Jack made his own before he died. Don't you mean beneficiary ?

A will is a public document after death. Presuming that Jersey has the same laws as England and Wales, anyone can obtain the details of Jack Walker's will from Somerset House.

I am equally certain that the club does NOT know the contents of the Will nor the Trust Settlement.

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Considering that the whole future of Rovers hinges on the continuing support of the Trust, I would be amazed if at least the Rovers chairman and chief executive did not know the contents of the Will or the Trust settlement.

[philipl]

Oops- testator, what was I thinking?!

However, I stand by my guns re the Club not knowing the Will and Settlement. The Directors should be informed by the Trustees of those parts relating to the club which the Trustees deem to be proper exercise of their trust for the good running of the club- no more.

Florida is spot on with his analysis. In fact I suggested the lease concept on this forum a couple of years' ago. It would easily be the best value bang for buck in European sport.

Why would some dodgy Indonesian gambling outfit pay £60m to have their name on the Manc shirts for five years when they could lease an entire club for three times as much for twice as long?

[jim mk2]

This is from the top horse's mouth.

Mihir Bose's article has been seen and noted but there is nothing new in it.

Rovers have been "unofficially" for sale for several years but there have been as yet no takers.

Edited March 2, 2006 by jim mk2

[American]

I was wondering about the public knowledge of a will there. I know over here after a certain amount of time (varies from state to state) it becomes public info. So, going by Jim's answer, if they don't know the contents of the will, they are truly incompetent and need to get down to the courthouse.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

I can't see how John Williams wouldn't at least have an idea of the structure and intentions of the trust. After all - how can he set up and follow a business strategy without knowing their intentions ?

However - getting a straight answer out of him would be virtually impossible. Little bit like asking him whether we were going to sign Bellamy in the weeks before he signed him. Any confirmation that we were up for sale would weaken the club's position with any potential investors.

[RevidgeBlue]

A few points:

The piece by Mihir Bose is a particularly sloppy piece of journalism. The 4m loss bit is particularly misleading, given that we actually recorded an operating profit. I'll bet many clubs would like to be in the same position. Given our overall record and current success on the pitch it's stretching things to te extreme to suggest that things have turned "sour"

That much said, the article is much ado about nothing really.Rovers are probably the only one of Jack's businesses not to be a large profit maker so I have little doubt the club would be sold if but only if it was in the club's best interests

By this the Trustees would have to be satisfied

a) about the new owners long term intentions for the club and perhaps more pertiently

The new buyers would have to have the ability to put in at least as much if not more bunce in than the trustees if required. I would imagine this would require them to have very deep pockets indeed. I know the trustees "only" currently choose to advance 3m per annum plus concessions to Rovers but that's only the half of it. Could the new buyers instantly find 10m to buy another Andy Cole if we were ever in danger of being relegated?. Could the new buyers inject 15 or 20m to keep us solvent if we were relegated?

At the end of the day the Trustees are under a legal obligation to carry out Jack's wishes contained in the trust deed. Without knowing the exact terms we can be as certain as can be the deed requires them to act in the best interests of ALL the Walker businesses.

I also think that people are confusing the wealth of the Walker family and the trust fund. As I understood it these are two separate things entirely. The family (most of which will be Fred) may or may not now be worth around 600m, although that figure will be sheer guesswork and probably includes an estimate as to the value of the Walker Companies. I understood Jack had set aside a separate fund(The trust fund) for the benefit of all the Walker businesses which was to be constantly supplemented by the profits from the businesses.

So as for it being the case that the Trustees would be prepared to sell if a suitable buyer came along it's like '''big deal tell us something we don't know".

There's a world of difference between that and being so desperate to off load they'll sell to anyone.

Edited March 2, 2006 by RevidgeBlue

[USABlue]

I fail to understand how you reach the above conclusion based on a book about Manchester United and a story on the potential sale of Blackburn Rovers.

Another case of shooting the messenger.

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jim, you respect this journalist? and here's me thinking you had a dislike of anyone who would call football soccer.

[USABlue]

Oops- testator, what was I thinking?!

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You were probably confused by some of the nuts talking bollards

Edited March 2, 2006 by USABlue

[Exiled in Toronto]

Only the Trustees of the Jack Walker Trust have any legitimate right to know the contents of the Trust Deed

I am equally certain that the club does NOT know the contents of the Will nor the Trust Settlement.

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Lets not kid ourselves here. I would find it inconceivable that Jack would not have discussed the terms of the Trust with his close family - his unfortunate death was not sudden after all - one of whom is a director on the Board of BRFC, so at least one member of the Board would know everything there is to know.

Whether this had been shared with a mere employee, the Chairman, is more debatable and I could well believe not. But then this particular Chairman doesn't really need to know anyway, given that we have an overwhelming majority shareholder who would call all the shots on whether or not the club is sold.

The key question for me is: who was the inside source for the story and for what purpose?

[Exiled in Toronto]

The Walkers are not interested in publicity or any of the trappings which go with ownership of a top sporting franchise.

P.S. does this idea make sense or is it madcap?

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Makes sense to me Florida, particularly what I think is your key insight above.

Hardly anyone but the Glaziers own football clubs for monetary reasons; owners are either fans, publicity seekers or money-launderers. Since our current owners are clearly none of these, BRFC may well be of more value to someone else than it is to them, which is always a good basis for a transaction.

[philipl]

Does it need an inside source?

We are playing the journos' favourites Spuds and could displace them from a Champs League place.

Up pops a story headlined "Walker legacy turning sour" (standing 5th in the Prem is really sour) and claiming inside knowledge that our gates are 21,000 (if only- GAV would win his bet!- in reality they are barely 20,000) and we lost £4m (£5m if he'd looked at the accounts).

Need I go on?

If Bohse spoke to anyone, whoever it was knows sod-all about Blackburn Rovers.

PS Splitting hairs over who was told- family members would be told in their capacity of being family members, not as Blackburn Rovers Directors. For all I know, JW could be fully in the know but technically all he needs to know is what the Trustees chose to tell him.

Edited March 2, 2006 by philipl

[Exiled in Toronto]

Your conspiracy theories get more outlandish every day. Keep them coming though; always good for a chuckle.

[Wild Irish Rover]

This is from the top horse's mouth.

Mihir Bose's article has been seen and noted but there is nothing new in it.

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And when did Ruud Van Gristlyneigh have any valid opinons on us..?

I'll get me coat..

[Blueboy Downunder]

inn an ideal world we all would love the walker family to be fans of the club and not because uncle jack says they have to keep us going. for me i do not want to see the club sold but should it be sold to a person who is a football fan and/or a rovers fan in particular then that would be no problem.

roman is not a chlesea fan...don't want the same thing to happen to us.

[stuwilky]

Your conspiracy theories get more outlandish every day.  Keep them coming though; always good for a chuckle.

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How is that a conspiracy post? I make it nailed on.

inn an ideal world we all would love the walker family to be fans of the club and not because uncle jack says they have to keep us going.

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Are the family trustees?

Edited March 2, 2006 by stuwilky

[allan]

In truth the Walker Trustees have far more pressing financial matters than the sale of BRFC. They are trying to flog Flybe which is a far bigger business. For example it is investing £500m in new aircraft over the next 3 years. The Trustees are scared that as a low-cost airline it may easily go bust. Indeed Michael O'Leary , boss of Ryanair, last year predicted that both Flybe and BMi would go to the wall as they are squeezed out of the low cost market. At present BRFC is washing its face financially and the loss referred to is simply an accounting write-down of player values and not a cash outflow. The player value amortisation is a meaningless figure only required to enable quoted fottball clubs such as MUFC to satisfy Stock Exchange accounting regs. The operating loss is the meaningful figure. Mihir Bose is known to be a Spurs fan so this is just a bit of pre-match ######-stirring.

[colin]

I'd tend to agree with Allen.

The figures quoted here are that Jack's brother Fred is worth £500m, if the WT is investing a similar amount in Flybe then there must be billions floating around the secret world of The Walkers.

I know that they have fingers in major property development which is not cheap, so perhaps a few millions to keep Rovers going is the equivalent of you or I buying hamster food.

I'll try and get the trustees to do a Q & A if we draw The Channel Islands

in the Champions League

[jim mk2]

. Mihir Bose is  known to be a Spurs fan so this is just a bit of pre-match ######-stirring.

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Really ? As a cricket-loving non-football supporter, that'd be news to him.

[LeChuck]

Your conspiracy theories get more outlandish every day.  Keep them coming though; always good for a chuckle.

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[joey_big_nose]

Let's have a look at the author of that statement, Mihir Bose. It would appear to me that he is an habitual sh!t-stirrer

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Ironic anybody?

[philipl]

Your conspiracy theories get more outlandish every day.  Keep them coming though; always good for a chuckle.

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He's in this list of "famous" Spurs supporters.

Mihir Bose also wrote a book about Venables' tenure at Spuds and the reason why I knew of his affiliation is that an Arsenal fan I know reckons he always writes biased articles against them.

For such a well-regarded journalist, he got three facts (gates, loss and ownership) wrong in a three paragraph article.

Allan is correct re the sale of flyBE although that airline is relatively secure financially.