[Archived] Champions League

[Eddie]

Once again we disagree pleasure, I believe your dislike for Wenger is unfounded. He has always come across to me as a very nice and well spoken man and also an extremely talented manager. He may suffer from the big team syndrome from time to time, but they all do. He didn't seem to be that bitter to me, he didn't say anything that we wouldn't have had the game gone the same way as that for Blackburn. Henry was a little surprising, but I think Arsenal fans should be pleased as I think last night, despite the defeat, made it less likely that he will be heading to Barcelona.

[speeeeeeedie]

Just played catch up with the last few pages. I find some of the posts quite interesting. One of the underlying currents is that many seem to have wanted Arsenal to lose. Am I right? I've got friends like this. They'll stick up for whoever plays against an English team in Europe because they don't like the English team. I'd rather support a home grown team any day against foreign opposition.

As for the game; it was ruined by the referee. How he managed to get his whistle to his lips so quickly is a mystery to me. A showpiece spectacle, the pinnacle of world club football, an advertisement for the game was effectively over as a contest with 72 minutes to go. My enthusiasm sunk after the sending off, I knew Barca would win it, so the ecxitement went. 11 v. 11 would have been a great game of attacking football. Henry had missed one and had another one saved, he looked good. After the red Henry was forced to run it alone whilst getting booted from the fiery Mexican Marquez, yet Henry got booked for a good challenge on Van Bommell. Arsenal were unfortunate, Barca were lucky.

Henry will stay. I think the Barca players p!ssed him off, he would have to build a few bridges there, and he wouldn't be top dog. At Arsenal he can rule the roost for as long as he wants. As for him not running; I'm sure there is a thread on this board about players' fitness relating to the Cup Final. He spent over an hour running like an idiot against four, he was knackered, just like the rest of the team. The soft pitch alleviated cramp.

Ashley Cole looked fit but he doesn't have his match brain working yet. On the sending off he was the Arsenal player keeping Eto'o onside. He was also out of position for the second.

Eto'o is blindingly fast. He's no finisher, but his speed will get him loads of goals. Henry strokes a ball in, Shearer blasts it in; both of them know what they are doing and put the ball there. Eto'o just hits and hopes, but I'd still have him playing for me.

Eboue will be a class act, Arsene has found another one there.

Campbell should be playing for England, not just for his attacking aerial ability but his defensive organisation. Ferdinand doesn't have that presence.

Ronaldinho had a bad game last night, but no-one can touch him. Credit to Arsenal for closing him down.

Ljungberg and Gilberto were excellent.

One last thing. You cannot complain about bad commentators and pundits until you've experienced the ineptitude of the US ones. Once you have witnessed this you'll be very happy to have anyone on the BBC or ITV. I hope other US based posters will back me up here but I have the unfortunate prospect of listening to a World Cup with these idiots. There is an Irish bloke called Tommy Smyth who is useless beyond comprehension. His analysis is constantly wrong and spent 5 minutes waxing about Almunia's "tum". Also we have 'expert analysis' from Marcelo Balboa, an ex-US international who thought that "Ronaldino" wasn't playing well.

[pleasure]

Once again we disagree pleasure, I believe your dislike for Wenger is unfounded. He has always come across to me as a very nice and well spoken man and also an extremely talented manager. He may suffer from the big team syndrome from time to time, but they all do. He didn't seem to be that bitter to me, he didn't say anything that we wouldn't have had the game gone the same way as that for Blackburn.

408806[/snapback]

not like you to disagree with me eddie! the feelings mutual.

i'm not trying to please people of get every 1 to agree with me. i couldnt care less.

[Eddie]

If you don't care then don't post. I wasn't expecting you to be upset by the fact that I don't agree with you I was simply saying that we have differing opinions on the matter, a comeback like that is utterly pointless.

[SuperStella]

ARSENAL F.C.

END OF SEASON DINNER DANCE

Starter

Egg on Face

Seasoned Hash

Frogs legs (past their best)

Spanish Surprise (well beaten)

Main course

Humble Pie

Chump Chops

French (has) Beans

Manager's Beef (not rare)

Catch of the Day - big lemon Sol (gutted)

NB: everything is imported, nothing is home grown.

Dessert

Sour Grapes (may be hard to swallow)

Fruitless Tarts

Raspberry Fools

Hard Cheese

Drinks

Bitter

Little Spirit

French Whine

Cabernet Empty 2006

Champagne - sorry none ordered

STRICTLY NO DOUBLES OR TREBLES

NB: drinks should be consumed from glasses as there will be no cups this year.

Guest speaker:

Sir Alex Ferguson - "What it's like to win the European Cup"

Please note that the club’s European Tour for the season 2006-07 is not guaranteed.

[Bing]

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/82/dsc000840qj.jpg

[pleasure]

If you don't care then don't post.

408836[/snapback]

okay, i wont. bye, bye then.....

[joey_big_nose]

As for the game; it was ruined by the referee. How he managed to get his whistle to his lips so quickly is a mystery to me. A showpiece spectacle, the pinnacle of world club football, an advertisement for the game was effectively over as a contest with 72 minutes to go. My enthusiasm sunk after the sending off, I knew Barca would win it, so the ecxitement went. 11 v. 11 would have been a great game of attacking football. Henry had missed one and had another one saved, he looked good. After the red Henry was forced to run it alone whilst getting booted from the fiery Mexican Marquez, yet Henry got booked for a good challenge on Van Bommell. Arsenal were unfortunate, Barca were lucky.

408813[/snapback]

Well, I don' quite get your complaint. Lehman committed a professional foul and by any interpretation of the rules he should have been sent off. In the rule book I have never seen a clause which says "if a sending off will be detrimental to the spectacle let the player stay on the pitch".

The ref had a straight choice as to whether the goal would be an adequate compensation and he decided Barcelona got greater compensation for the foul through the sending off. With players like Deco and Ronaldinho with a free kick just outside the box, and playing a man extra for a vast 72 minutes, it is easy to understand his decision.

Sure it was bad for the game to watch, but aren't referees supposed to apply the rules fairly?

Oh, and how were Barca lucky? How was two great passes by Larsson and two good finishes by Eto'o and Benetti 'luckier' than shots by Henry and Ljungberg?

I wanted Arsenal to win but they lost fair and square, why winge about it? And the biggest cheat in that match was Eboue by a long chalk. The dive for the opening free kick is the sort of thing they should have a panel for to go and punish the player retrospectively.

[Nayef]

Totally agree with joey's post.

I've always liked Arsenal but last night they were anything but magnanimous in defeat.

Henry going on air and stating that referee should have worn a barca shirt... oh dear oh dear. Monsieur Henry, en faisant la gueule, tu perds plus que tu penses.

[Tony Diamond Inc]

What you are failing to understand, is the rule to send off in such instances is there to compensate for the taking away of a genuine goalscoring opportunity.

Last night Barce. scored after the offence, therefore suffered no disadvantage, meaning no need for a red card.

People saying the referee was technically right to send Lehman off are pedants who don't understand the spirit of the game.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

I think Arsenal didn't get the "rub of the green" with the referee - I was amazed at some of the offences they got pulled up for, and yet Barca players went unpunished. His handling of some of the challenges on Henry were "soft" to say the least.

The first goal was marginally offside - but the speed of the pass and player would have made it virtually impossible to see with the naked eye (not exactly a Cisse type decision ).

Ultimately Arsenal (especially Henry) had by far the better chances. On a different night they would have won the match. But I don't think that makes them unlucky - ultimately if the opposition goal keeper plays well it isn't luck as that is what he is paid to do.

[LA Rover]

I'd rather support a home grown team any day against foreign opposition.

408813[/snapback]

Yes, all those "home grown" Englishmen in the Arsenal team should be proud of the way they played against those foreigners....Er?

However, I will certainly sympathize with your Tommy "Onion Bag" Smith. Clueless, useless.

[Shevchenko]

Eto'o is blindingly fast. He's no finisher, but his speed will get him loads of goals. Henry strokes a ball in, Shearer blasts it in; both of them know what they are doing and put the ball there. Eto'o just hits and hopes, but I'd still have him playing for me.

408813[/snapback]

Wait...what?

[kingalan]

Despite being a Rovers fan, I was lucky enough to get a ticket for the match through a friend at Arsenal and, for 76 minutes, I had a fantastic night.

It's interesting to read through the points on the thread as you always get a different perspective of the match watching it live than on the telly.

While the referee was frustratingly reluctant to book any of the Barca players, I don't agree with the argument that he "ruined" the match. Lehmann had to go. Even if the referee had played on, allowed the goal and Lehmann to stay on the pitch would Arsenal have found a way back in? Trying to chase a lead and therefore leaving yourself vulnerable at the back against that Barca team - I don't think they could have won.

What was most thrilling about the game was that Arsenal, against all odds, got their noses in front and managed to heroically defend their lead for almost an hour while still creating clear chances to put the game out of reach.

I think the reaction of Wenger and Henry are completely understandable. I mean, you can't expect to get a level-headed interview straight after one of the most disappointing nights of your life, can you?

I felt really gutted for the Arsenal fans at the end. I can't imagine how their real fans must've felt.

[doctorryan]

Some things need to be cleared up here.

1:

Lehmann had to go. Period. End of discussion. If it had been Rovers vs. Gunners in a cup final & Bellars had been the victim the reaction here would have been hysterical; using both meanings of the word.

2:

It IS within the referee's discretion in this case to allow the play to continue, count the goal & then pull out the red card (which is what should have happened). Last man does not even have to come into the equation. The goalkeeper pulled a player down, whether intentional or not, outside the 18 yard box. That's a red, and that's that. The ref then allows the advantage to be played.

For those of you who were more interested in a night's entertainment than seeing that the deserving team won: "Go watch clowns."

[92er]

On teletext now the ref is being quoted as saying that he blew too quickly, that he should have allowed the goal and yellow carded the keeper.

[speeeeeeedie]

Joey, it is my understanding that referee's have been told to play the advantage at every opportunity. Within a hair's breadth of Lehman's undisputed foul the ref had blown. Even he has now admitted that he was too hasty, one second to think and it's a goal. Did Lehman deny a goalscoring opportunity? Yes for Eto'o, no for Guily and Barca. Leave it 11 v. 11, 1-0 and play on. Barca were lucky with refereeing decisions, not with their finishing.

Shevchenko, it would take me too long to explain my reasoning behind my post but watch Eto'o over time, he's not a natural like Fowler Gerd Muller, Romario, Van Horse and their ilk. But he has an asset that gets him plenty of goals. It was not a cristicism of him, just a comment on his style of play.

Doctorryan, remind me to come and ask you when dealing with only yes and no questions. Barca may have won in 11 v. 11, but we'll never know, just like Mourinho said after Barca beat Chelsea's 10.

LA Rover;

USA, Australia, New Zealand, Georgia, England, Australia, Turkey, Wales, Norway, Finland, Wales.

Who would want to cheer a team on filled with that many foreigners? Think about who supports the teams and where the team is from, not who plays for them.

[joey_big_nose]

Joey, it is my understanding that referee's have been told to play the advantage at every opportunity. Within a hair's breadth of Lehman's undisputed foul the ref had blown. Even he has now admitted that he was too hasty, one second to think and it's a goal. Did Lehman deny a goalscoring opportunity? Yes for Eto'o, no for Guily and Barca. Leave it 11 v. 11, 1-0 and play on. Barca were lucky with refereeing decisions, not with their finishing.

408920[/snapback]

Look, Lehman committed a PROFESSIONAL FOUL. He intended to do what he did.

It's like saying an assassin should be punished lesh harshly merely because he missed.

The question is the intent and the commitment of that intent and he did both. He shouldn't be allowed to stay on the pitch because he failed to do what he intended to to the full extent (ie. prevent a goal through committing a foul). His rubbishness as a cgheater should not mean he gets treated more leiniently.

If it is within the referees powers, and I didn't realise it was until someone mentioned it, Lehman should have been sent off AND the goal allowed! So actually Arsenal could be construed as quite lucky, rather than the other way around.

Edited May 18, 2006 by joey_big_nose

[doctorryan]

Doctorryan, remind me to come and ask you when dealing with only yes and no questions. Barca may have won in 11 v. 11, but we'll never know, just like Mourinho said after Barca beat Chelsea's 10.

408920[/snapback]

It was a professional foul speeeeeeedie. You don't like that being pointed out, too damn bad. Who would have won if it remained 11 v. 11 is irrelevant. It was 11 v. 10 and that's the way it should have been.

[LA Rover]

LA Rover;

USA, Australia, New Zealand, Georgia, England, Australia, Turkey, Wales, Norway, Finland, Wales.

Who would want to cheer a team on filled with that many foreigners? Think about who supports the teams and where the team is from, not who plays for them.

408920[/snapback]

Yes, but I never said I would rather blindly root for the "home grown" team, now did I?

Personally, I don't care if Arsenal have 11 players from Thailand in their squad. I just can't get my head around nationalism for the sake of nationalism, when such a thin tie to to your country of origin exists. The World Cup is next month.

Like the whole non-sense about Arsenal being the first British team to win at the Bernebeau, when they had not a single British player in their lineup. Who bloody cares? That accomplishment has NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING BRITISH, and everything to do with the players and manger who did it. They just happened to be assembled and work in London.

When I'm a neutral, I applaud attractive attacking football, and the best team won. Barcelona were the best team in Europe this season from day one and they got their just reward.

I don't begrudge anyone who roots for Arsenal based on your criteria, it's just not for me. If Blackburn aren't involved, I'm happy to enjoy the game as is.

[LA Rover]

As a post-script...

I was watching the game with a couple Barca supporters and one of them has heard various rumors circulating in Barcelona that Rijkaard may actually step down and take a break from management for a year or so.

I thought it very outlandish at first, but when you think about how abrubtly he left the Dutch national team after losing in the semi's of Euro 2000, it may not be. He was only there for that one tournament.

They both said they would be surprised but added that Rijkaard is, well, Dutch....

Interesting.

[Eddie]

If it is within the referees powers, and I didn't realise it was until someone mentioned it, Lehman should have been sent off AND the goal allowed! So actually Arsenal could be construed as quite lucky, rather than the other way around.

408927[/snapback]

He could have done that but that would have been plain stupid in my opinion. Personally I would have booked him and allowed the goal to stand, which for the sake of the game is what I wish had happened. What would the result have been had it been 11 v 11, no one can know. The one thing I will say is that Arsenal were the better team up until the sending off and were the better team up until around the 75th minute.

[joey_big_nose]

He could have done that but that would have been plain stupid in my opinion. Personally I would have booked him and allowed the goal to stand, which for the sake of the game is what I wish had happened. What would the result have been had it been 11 v 11, no one can know. The one thing I will say is that Arsenal were the better team up until the sending off and were the better team up until around the 75th minute.

408966[/snapback]

Eddie!!!! THe referee is not supposed to make decisions on the basis of 'what's better for the neutal observer', but on the basis of the culpability of those who break the rules of the came. It is supposed to be a fair contest, remember?

The rule of law and all that. Bejesus.

It is people who exercise judgement like that that get Rovers into so much grief. They equate the concept of an unattractive game with justification for refereeing decisions. Favourable decsions are given to the big clubs in the interest of creating a 'more attractive game' which equates to soft cards being handed out to 'those cloggers' (ie us, Bolton, FUlham etc).

Edited May 18, 2006 by joey_big_nose

[Eddie]

Well then under the rule of law he was in no position to allow the goal and send the player off as he blew the whistle.

[joey_big_nose]

Well then under the rule of law he was in no position to allow the goal and send the player off as he blew the whistle.

408972[/snapback]

Granted. So we are agreed- he should of hesitated and and blown after the goal then sending off the keeper awarding the the goal. Failing that, due to blowing too early, he should of sent the keeper off and given a free kick, which he did.

Edited May 18, 2006 by joey_big_nose