[Archived] Italian Refereeing Scandal

[philipl]

James Richardson on the Italian scandal

The Italian scandal explained in English terms (although I don't like the Rovers' role in it)

Edited May 16, 2006 by philipl

[ihtd]

How likely is it that some of the teams involved will be relegated?

If big teams are relegated it could destroy Italian football, mass exodus of players from the top clubs for very little money.

It could end up like the storyline in DT when Harchester were relegated for match fixing. So they were a Championship side playing Champions League football. Stranger things have happened in football.

[dave birch]

It's stories like this, and the Ballack "salary" that makes me want to give up following football at a professional level.

Nail the barstewards, put 'em in goal, show them who is in charge, give the fans some honesty and value for money.

[jim mk2]

Good piece by Matt Dickinson but I'm not sure why he chose Rovers as candidates for match-fixing. Perhaps that's because he's a Notlobian.

[herbergeehh]

If Juventus is found guilty of the alleged crimes, they have fulfilled all the demands to get the strictest punishment available from the Consiglio Federale - they can remove Juventus' name from Serie A, and put them somewhere between Serie B and Serie C3 - if enough rules are broken. They can also deduct points from Juventus for next season, aswell as relegating them.

Fiorentina and Lazio are both accused of "ordering a referee" for important matches, and can face the same punishment as Juventus. Difference is that their whole board isn't involved, so a point deduction is perhaps most likely - and if they are relegated - they won't be relegated as far as Juventus.

Milan only has minor problems, none of the top men involved - only Leonardo Meani, a club associate. They will not be relegated unless new evidence comes up methinks.

It will be very interesting to see how far they will relegate Juventus, and also which players will follow the club down. I can't see Alex Del Piero sign for another Italian club......

[bluebruce]

James Richardson on the Italian scandal

The Italian scandal explained in English terms (although I don't like the Rovers' role in it)

408141[/snapback]

That Matt Dickinson called Patrick Veira a 'Premiership reject'. That could be the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time.

[pick32]

with all this goin on will loads of players be available cheep. this could be good for the english game getting top playeers in the premiership, nedved, buffon, viera, Trezeguet, del piero,Zambrotta and ibrahimovich coming over we would surely be the best league in the world.l

[InterRovers]

I bet they couldnt tap Berlusconis phone as he has been the prime minister of Italy as well. Would be a bit unlikely. Now that he isn't though, there should be every reason to investigate his dodgy persona. Hopefully get rid of the shabby red team as well.

407831[/snapback]

They could have tapped Berlusco's phone, but as per the law that he had passed it would have to be approved in Parliament to tap a politicians phone!!!

As an Inter fan and season ticket holder for the last four years I feel a little short changed to say the least. It was so obvious that nobody really believed it - if that makes any sense?

[pick32]

( double post)

Edited May 16, 2006 by pick32

[philipl]

Inter-Rover, I completely understand when you say it was so obvious nobody believed it. It is the same feeling one gets about refereeing and Liverpool and Man U!

A Maltese journalist has written:

What sport is really dirty?

How depressing

The past two weeks have turned Italian football upside down, after the revelations of Juve’s Luciano Moggi’s match fixing with referees, another eight teams are being investigated.

Fiorentina, Lazio, Udinese, Siena, Messina, Arezzo and Avellino are all being investigated along with Juventus. Three of the above mention teams are being investigated for match fixing and most likely if found guilty be relegated. The other clubs remaining are either victims or accomplices of Moggi’s match fixing. At least Inter, Milan and Roma have not been mentioned and I wonder what could be going through the management’s minds of these teams. It is a very desperate situation indeed.

The new information coming out of this investigation is that Franco Carraro who resigned as chief of the Italian Football Federation as a result of this scandal knew about these wrong doings, as did the heads of the referee selection committee of the 2004/2005 season, Luigi Pairetto and Paolo Bergamo.

I am beginning to believe that the Scudetto had already been decided at the beginning of the season, not by the players but men in the boardroom. All the pressure on Milan and Inter to win the Scudetto was useless since it seems the outcome had already been decided.

Football, unfortunately, has become a sport where men with suits and ties decide the outcome of a game and not the athletes and team effort.

All the dubious plays and calls of referees this season and in other seasons seem to be making sense now. I don’t know how many times this year Juve have had final calls that always decided a game in their favour.

After the smoke clears from this enquiry I really hope that the management who were involved in this wrong-doing get penalised in a major way and not just a slap on the hand. If Moggi is found guilty, Juventus should have the Scudetto taken away from them and also be relegated.

Incidentally it appears that a very minor official of AC has been called in which is why they are on the list. Whether that is the limit of their complicity remains to be seen.

The latest- Italian FA in Government administration, Juve share price continues to crash, Moggi wanted to play the day the Pope died because of opposition suspensions and so it goes on....

Edited May 16, 2006 by philipl

[AggyBlue]

Nail the barstewards, put 'em in goal, show them who is in charge,

408169[/snapback]

I know this country is soft on crime but I didn't realise Italy was worse

[herbergeehh]

with all this goin on will loads of players be available cheep. this could be good for the english game getting top playeers in the premiership, nedved, buffon, viera,  Trezeguet, del piero,Zambrotta and ibrahimovich coming over we would surely be the best league in the world.l

408227[/snapback]

Great!

[bluebruce]

Great! 

408256[/snapback]

Yeh...except they'd all be going to the top, top teams or to Spain. If we were really lucky, we might get some cast offs from the big four.

[ihtd]

I wonder if we could sign any of the players at the accussed clubs, we could just tell them that we know they were involved, some probably were and the ones we catch out we could blackmail them into playing for us. lol

On a more serious note, what effect would a mass relegation and player exodus have on the Italian game? Also couldn't Juventus being relegated change the formation of the G14 as they will no longer be a member and would another team replace them?

I got a feeling that what is happening in Italy can only be bad for English football as our home grown talent isn't getting the chance to come through at many top clubs and an influx of players fleeing Serie A could add to this even further.

I got so many questions but very few answers.

[bluebruce]

I wonder if we could sign any of the players at the accussed clubs, we could just tell them that we know they were involved, some probably were and the ones we catch out we could blackmail them into playing for us. lol

On a more serious note, what effect would a mass relegation and player exodus have on the Italian game? Also couldn't Juventus being relegated change the formation of the G14 as they will no longer be a member and would another team replace them?

I got a feeling that what is happening in Italy can only be bad for English football as our home grown talent isn't getting the chance to come through at many top clubs and an influx of players fleeing Serie A could add to this even further.

I got so many questions but very few answers.

408296[/snapback]

I'll try to field some then

I don't think the G14 has always been 14 members, I think they expand and decrease it as they wish. So I'm not so sure that they'd just go and replace Juve. But if anybody else is going to get admitted to their little club it would logically be Chelsea, as the only superpower that isn't in it. But then again the others must all be afraid of Chelsea (they're certainly jealous, and not keen on admitting them into the G14 from what I've heard), so wouldn't wish that to happen. Think they'd have a hard time justifying letting somebody else in instead though. Chelsea will probably be the next club admitted there I'd wager, but it could be a while.

It's hard to say what will happen to Serie A if there's a mass exodus. Much would hinge on whether Juve could keep their squad together for one season, since the players know that chances are they'll be straight back up. However, if they demoted Juve to Serie C or something, they'd clearly have a hell of a job keeping most of their stars. It also depends just who else goes down. If huge clubs like fiorentina and lazio go down too, then tons of players will almost certainly be leaving, since with all those clubs in Serie B, it would be hard to get out of at the first time of asking no matter your calibre. Somebody said Juve would lose 80 million minimum didn't they? If so they'll be fairly crippled by all this, but I'd expect them to be right back where they are in no more than 5 years. Does anybody know if all these teams being relegated would mean an equal amount of Serie B teams being pushed up at the same time?

I'm not convinced it would have a particularly negative impact on English football (or as I'm assuming you're pertaining to more, the England team). We've had people moaning about those johnny foreigners stopping our young players progressing for years now, but what has been the actual result? A very fine national team indeed, brimming with some of the best players in the world. Know why I think that is? Competition. Having the best players in the world in our league means the English players have to try that bit harder. And they can learn from a wide range of masters at their own clubs and by playing against those at others. It's also meant huge cash influxes. Aside from enabling us to improve stadiums etc and generally create a more improved game, our facilities have gotten better too, players are forced to train harder than they used to, and there are more top coaches and coaching methods. This all comes from the money brought in by having top international stars in our league, and helps the young english players. Besides, the influx of players fleeing Serie A won't be immense in Premiership terms. Some players will go to Spain, some Germany, some to other Italian clubs like Milan who will be able to challenge even better for the title now and have somehow remained clear of allegations. And Premiership clubs have never had much of a habit of buying from Italian clubs. Seems to go wrong a lot of the time would be a key reason why I presume. I'd be very surprised indeed if more than 10 players ended up in the Prem from Italy this summer. And history suggests most of them would flop pretty quickly!

Hope that eases your mind...or, like Lost, does it only pose more questions whilst answering some?

[ihtd]

Top Post bluebruce!!!

This whole series of events could cripple Italian football, t.v. rights when they come up for negotiation are going to not be worth as much which will have a knock on effect on the teams in Serie A. A league without its top players is just an average league and should Juve, Fiorentina and Lazio all be demoted as far as Serie C1/2/3, with AC Milan losing players to other European clubs such as Shevchenko to Chelsea and the possibility of deducted points from AC Milan it could lead to less money being made from International t.v rights.

This would leave teams like Inter Milan and Roma being the big boys of Italian football, Inter have some top players but they are not the side they used to be.

This whole disgrace is going to cost somebody big money and i for one will guarentee it won't be the televison companies.

On the subject of money should any of these teams be relegated, what it is going to do to their sponsors, these companies pay top money to be shirt sponsors of these teams especially a team like Juventus. these sponsors would very likely withdraw their money and as such leave the league and the clubs in an even worse financial stuation.

[Fife Rover]

with all this goin on will loads of players be available cheep. this could be good for the english game getting top playeers in the premiership, nedved, buffon, viera,  Trezeguet, del piero,Zambrotta and ibrahimovich coming over we would surely be the best league in the world.l

408227[/snapback]

Yes, and the greatest benefit for Rovers would be that with all those "stars" available, the super-rich clubs would not be sniffing round any of our players. Not even Bellamy!

Oh and while I am thinking about it: Could someone please explain to me (without laughing) just exactly what a "Scudetto" is? There are numerous references to this mysterious object in various posts above, and I have to plead ignorance of ever having come across this word before.

Edited May 16, 2006 by Fife Rover

[Ronin]

The Scudetto is basically the right to wear the shield/badge of the league association on their shirts for the following season.

[tchocky]

Scudetto is what you win when you win the Serie A. A league championship, so to speak. I don't know the actual meaning of the word, though. Juve just won the Scudetto, eh. Maybe it means "league"

[Fife Rover]

Many thanks to Ronin and Tchokky for revealing to me the answer to the Scudetto mystery. Now I understand.

[Ronin]

It's only recently that they've given a trophy to the championship winners. btw Scudetto means "small shield"

[Hypo-Luxa]

AC Milan was the team that got me into watching footy. The likes of George Weah, Marco van Basten, Lenoardo, Paolo Maldini, Donadoni and even that dirty cheat Baresi really got me hooked and showed me what class of football existed outside of the United States. This was before the internet, before the MLS, before the fantastic World Cup '94 and I had seen neither hide nor hair of any football other than domestic youth leagues. So when I watched an exchange student friend of mine's tapes of AC Milan that were sent to her weekly during the early '90's I was hooked.

With that I've always followed AC Milan, but over the years my distaste has grown for the League itself every year. And while AC Milan hasn't been implicitly charged with any wrong-doings or have gone into financial tailspins like some of their more prominent contemporaries, you'd have to be pretty dense and/or naive to believe that their hands are clean. I'd love it if the club was as squeaky clean as could be, but with Berlusconi, whom I despise even though he's done wonders for the club, I cannot but think there has been underhanded dealings associated with the club. Again, if AC Milan are not charged, or even implicated in any wrong-doing I will be happy, but that seed of doubt will always remain, and that's a shame. The whole league needs a hosing down. The scandals and financial problems have been there for a long time, but unless they want a new black-eye every season, the Italian Football Association needs to make every effort to clean it up and make it respectable again.

[tchocky]

I guess the same is true for me with Inter. I was just getting into football around the '90 world cup in Italy. Some of the names where Roberto Baggio, Guiseppe Bergomi, Franco Baresi, Walter Zenga and Guiseppe Giannini, but the team that really caught my eye (if you're british you won't understand this!) was Germany with the likes of Klinsmann, Matthaus and Brehme, who all played for Inter at the time. I remember nearly completing two sticker books for that WC. Brazil was another favourite. My little sister was actually the one interested in England at the time. Her favourite player being Lineker (and in later years, Owen ). I remember my uncle who lived in Rome at the time bought me an AC Milan shirt for xmas - didn't wear that very often

Ah, the memories!

[philipl]

Because the deadline for nominating entrants to next year's UEFA competitions is rapidly approaching, the enquiry team has to get a move on if any Italian teams are to be involved. Last year the UEFA dealine was 6 June so it is quite probable that the title stripping and relegations will be handed out within the next two weeks.

At present nine clubs in Serie A and B (including AC) are being looked at for specific match fixing irregularities in 2004/5 only with the European places of Juve, Lazio and Fiorentina under the greatest threats.

It would be the greatest irony to see that city of probity and good governance, Palermo, step into European competition as a result of all this! Of course, the CL would be further devalued as the 7th placed Italian club might get into the bonanza although their European ranking points could be low enough so they would hopefully not be seeded in the 3rd Qualifying Round.

The Italian investigators haven't reportedly started on 2005/6 or any earlier seasons yet.

There have been suggestions that Moggi's best hope is to turn "Queen's evidence" and name everyone and everything he has been involved in. On that basis, the six hours he spent in his first interview on Monday could have done a lot of damage.

World Cup coach Lippi has admitted he was pressurised into picking GEA (Moggi's son's agency) players but he hasn't said whether the pressure worked or not.

Edited May 17, 2006 by philipl

[Paul]

It's also meant huge cash influxes.......This all comes from the money brought in by having top international stars in our league..........

408300[/snapback]

That's a very good post bluebruce except I'd disagree the players attract money into the game. The major changes in our game resulted from the Taylor report and Sky deals, especially the first TV deal. Suddenly the PL found it could compete in the international transfer market and attract foreign stars to our game. Once the process had been kick-started by Sky money it became self-perpetuating, the players arrived, Sky paid more, so more players came etc. This was rounded off by the EU demanding TV rights be sold more equitably, resulting in Sky and Setanta paying even more!

I don't feel the players have brought money to the game, quite the opposite in fact. Around 70-80% of PL clubs turnover goes in wages, allowing one to presume 70-80% of the Sky/sponsorship money is taken out of the game by players.

I thought the PL had reached a peak in the obscene amounts paid to players. However it seems Chelsea have managed to drag the game into an even more sordid, festering pit of greed and self-indulgence by offering Ballack £30m, reportedly after tax, over 4 years.

As for Italian football? Don't be surprised if the fall out from this scandal is relatively minor. By this I mean, one club, Juve, being hit with a very big stick and the rest getting away with a minor beating. The justification being other clubs were pressurised into following Juve's lead. The other choice, massive punishments for all concerned would destroy Italian football, that isn't going to happen.

If all guilty clubs are relegated it's likely the TV and sponsorship money will dry up over night. Players would have to be sold, crowds would drop, income reduced (don't forget Juve, despite their success have been giving away and/or selling tens of thousands of cheap tickets this season even though they are the most widely supported club in Italy). Add all this up and the result would destroy the game in Italy, meaning years of very difficult rebuilding. I for one will not be at all surprised if Juve are relegated and the rest simply rapped on the knuckles.