[Archived] The Big Club Bias

[RevidgeBlue]

Listening to Talksport in the car today one of the contributors Gabriel Marcotti has apparently compiled a book about the differences, or similarities, between English and Italian football.

That's by the by but he said one of the best people he interviewed for the book was Graham Poll who he said was was extremely honest with his views.

Poll's view on the reason why so many decisions seemingly go in favour of the big clubs was:

If a referee sees an incident clearly and is certain as to what's happened he'll give the decision accordingly. If he doesn't see it properly or there is an element of doubt in his mind subconsciously the referee thinks "If I get this decision wrong and it affects (say) Brighton's season it's not going to make any headlines outside of the Brighton Argos. If I make a bad decision involving (say) Man Utd the whole Country will be on the case."

Hmmm.......... what does everyone think?

Part of me says that's a perfectly reasonable explanation. The other part says it's cheating dressed up in a load of flowery language.

[cn174]

I've heard something similar explained before - can't remember by whom though.

He was going on about because teams ie Man U, Arsenal, Newcastle (Chelsea weren't anywhere near at the time) are better, then they should win more and be entitled to get more of the decisions their way to make sure they stay better. At the time I remember thinking that its just an elaborate way of saying refs are biased!

[ihtd]

The other part says it's cheating dressed up in a load of flowery language

That quotation sums it all up to me.

I heard the same thing on Talksport yesterday and it has now made me believe that most referees are bottlers, they are scared to give a decision against a big club as if they get it wrong they will be in the spotlight for the next week. Well wuppee doo, they'll be in the press but surely a referee should not go into a match saying that if any big decision comes along that he is not sure about, he should side with the big club. What a farce!!

But OTH the referee should he make the big decision against the big club and get it wrong, Gab Marcotti said that that referee would more than likely find themselves refereeing some match like Stoke v Southampton instead of Man Utd v Arsenal. I suppose the ref is only looking after his career when making these biased decisions. Thats no excuse IMO.

[Fife Rover]

I've heard something similar explained before - can't remember by whom though.

He was going on about because teams ie Man U, Arsenal, Newcastle (Chelsea weren't anywhere near at the time) are better, then they should win more and be entitled to get more of the decisions their way to make sure they stay better. At the time I remember thinking that its just an elaborate way of saying refs are biased!

409400[/snapback]

The difference between the case you quote cn174 and the case that Rev quoted is that in this one there is obvious and deliberate bias, i.e. cheating on the part of the ref. But in the case Rev quoted it is not based on a desire to deliberately cheat, rather on a panic feeling caused by uncertainty.

I suppose if you really look at it from a morality point of view the ref should stop the play and explain to both captains why, and re-start with a bounce-up. Then I suppose in this day and age instead of both captains accepting that the ref was trying to do the honest thing, one or both of them would start mouthing off about they were being cheated out of a free kick, or something. The poor ref cant do right for doing wrong can he? Who'd be ref?

Edited May 21, 2006 by Fife Rover

[Rover4ever]

The reason referees are so biased is because they are hardly punished. When was the last time you heard of Poll/Riley being punished for sucking up to Chelski or the scum?

D'Urso was considered to have made the ultimate refereeing mistake, i.e. not sending off a Blackburn player. However, week in week out we see similarly atrocious decisions favoring Chelsea and Manure, but no referee ever gets punished.

[Fife Rover]

The reason referees are so biased is because they are hardly punished. When was the last time you heard of Poll/Riley being punished for sucking up to Chelski or the scum?

D'Urso was considered to have made the ultimate refereeing mistake, i.e. not sending off a Blackburn player. However, week in week out we see similarly atrocious decisions favoring Chelsea and Manure, but no referee ever gets punished.

409451[/snapback]

Don't you mean Chelski, Manure, Spuds and Liverpool?

[modes98]

Now i know why birmingham kept getting the big decisions!

It has to be difficult to get everything and especially the big decisions right, but all you want as a fan is consistancy.

Edited May 21, 2006 by modes98

[thenodrog]

There is a ridiculously simple solution. I've said many times that when the inevitable happens and video refereeing is introduced into the Prem it will stop 90+% of bias and will make the Prem far fairer for the smaller clubs.

2 points at the Mags would have been lost but we would surely have taken 2 in the two games v Liverpool. But they would have finished with 4 less.

[Fife Rover]

It has to be difficult to get everything and especially the big decisions right, but all you want as a fan is consistancy.

409457[/snapback]

You are absolutely right Modes, but all of us fans need to allow that just as we are, the refs are human beings too; and human beings are not infallible. I am sure that refs generally TRY to get it right, in all except a very few cases.

[Fife Rover]

This thread has got me thinking of how many points Rovers would have gained and lost over this season if there had not been any wrong decisions made by the match officials. I can only think of the following instances; others may remember more:

Newcastle away: Hand of Ped decision - should have drawn - minus 2 points

Liverpool away; Zura wrongly sent off - would have at least drawn? - plus 1 point

Spuds away; They got 2 illegal goals - would have won -plus 3 points

Liverpool home; They got 1 illegal goal - would have won IMO -plus 3 points

Chelsea home; They should have had at least one penalty - minus 2 points

So as I see it minus 4points and plus 7 points means we should have got 66 points overall which would have got us into 5th place.

Have I missed any out?

Whoops! I forgot to make the necessary allowances for the points gained or lost by our opponents in the above. Dillo where are you?

Edited May 21, 2006 by Fife Rover

[thenodrog]

Liverpool home; They got 1 illegal goal - would have won IMO  -plus 3 points

409484[/snapback]

Can't agree with the last bit of that statement Fife. Fairer to take it as 1 point if I were you.

[USABlue]

Part of me says that's a perfectly reasonable explanation. The other part says it's cheating dressed up in a load of flowery language. 

409397[/snapback]

I'm going with the second part of that sentence. It's wrong, wrong, wrong. It needs to be put right. It's starting to put me off footy as surely as the "skewed" NBA officiating put me off Basketball.

The rules apply to all teams equally.

[cn174]

Maybe this will help:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/e...rem/5004364.stm

Tho I doubt it

[pleasure]

Maybe this will help:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/e...rem/5004364.stm

Tho I doubt it

wont help much. especially as the 'new trend' seems to involve -the ref/ linesman covering their mouths, so tv/ crowd cant tell what theyre saying. their voices will be too muffled and they wont be heard over the crowd!

Edited May 23, 2006 by pleasure

[thenodrog]

Maybe this will help:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/e...rem/5004364.stm

It would definitely help if I had one too!

[FourLaneBlue]

'Fans are crying "foul!" after two top refs were seen cheering Arsenal in the Champions League. We can blow the whistle on Andy D'Urso and Barry Knight after they were pictured with Gunners fans in the stands at last week's final against Barcelona. The pair have both refereed Arsenal games in the past - but footie chiefs claim their actions have not compromised their impartiality' - The Sun.

[Cheshireblue]

Jeff winter makes the point is his autobiography. He says that if you get a decision wrong, then the big clubs take you all the way. He was dragged in front of a disciplinary panel and grilled for 3 hours by ManUre's QC. Winter is a JP so was not phased by it all. He was cleared of any incompetance/wrong doing, yet it was almost 3 years before he was appointed to referee another ManUre game.

If you are a ref, you want to ref the ManUre, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal games, so you either consciously or otherwise back away from making a risky decision that might go against them.

[USRoverME]

I can see that, Cheshire. And the only way to stop it is to be consisent with ref. punishments. Either they get grilled for EVERY mistake (whether it helps or hurts a big club), or they prevent the refs from getting grilled as such by clubs in general, and instead have some form of "independant" review board that would be responsible for review performance and making recommendations in terms of refs for matches and in terms of their capabilites to do high level matches or even their wages. Not a huge expert on the ref situation, so maybe this already exists.

That being said, I'm not sure how "indepedant" and view you can reasonably expect from the FA.

Also that comment on Jeff Winters strikes me as odd. To me it implies to some extent that a club like ManU can influnce who refs their matches. And THAT sounds a lot like some of the allegations raining down in Italy...

[pleasure]

'Fans are crying "foul!" after two top refs were seen cheering Arsenal in the Champions League. We can blow the whistle on Andy D'Urso and Barry Knight after they were pictured with Gunners fans in the stands at last week's final against Barcelona. The pair have both refereed Arsenal games in the past - but footie chiefs claim their actions have not compromised their impartiality' - The Sun.

that stinks. football is getting more and more bent!

poll is chelsea fan and he refs most of their big games!

i remember him reffing us down at stamford bridge and failing to give us 2 cast iron penalties.

refs have 'cart blance' to use incompetance to mask corruption!

[roversmum]

Let's face it, don't they have a training session every week? You can't tell me they don't get together and talk about their fav teams you know......

[Tris]

poll is chelsea fan and he refs most of their big games!

Apparently a QPR fan and there's a good interview with him here.

Time to stop giving these guys endless grief, and show a degree of sympathy for what is becoming an impossible job.

[colin]

That's a good article Tris, thanks for the link.

I think that this thread just about describes what is wrong with attitudes to football refs.

Is there any other sport (apart from baseball) where is seems to be accepted that the players, the managers, the fans, & the media to ritually abuse the ref/umpire and take it as given that it is a completley natural and acceptable part of the game?

I've said this before and I'll probably say it again: it may be OK for the TV pundits to sit in judgement with the benefit of slow motion replays from five angles, but they are not out there on the pitch with 22 players who would sell their grannies to win a throw in.

Just a question to ponder:

If Graham Poll doesn't give us an obvious penalty is it alright to abuse him? (hint: the answer is probably "yes")If he does give us the penalty & Bellamy misses it, do we give him the same abuse? (hint: the answer is probably "no")

As our American cousins would say: "Go figure."

Wow! new colours for fonts

Edited May 27, 2006 by colin

[Florida Rover]

Just watching Villa and Chelsea,Angel had a breakaway heading toward Chelsea's goal and Kalou(i beleive) came crashing from behind and collared Angel about the neck,head and body.Angel Goes down and I'm thinking red card for the Chelsea player.No,Poll doesn't even blow for a foul.Incredible.You just know if the situation were reversed and say Drogba was on a breakaway and Mellberg did the same he'd be marching to the showers.Double standard again.

[frosty]

Just watching Villa and Chelsea,Angel had a breakaway heading toward Chelsea's goal and Kalou(i beleive) came crashing from behind and collared Angel about the neck,head and body.Angel Goes down and I'm thinking red card for the Chelsea player.No,Poll doesn't even blow for a foul.Incredible.You just know if the situation were reversed and say Drogba was on a breakaway and Mellberg did the same he'd be marching to the showers.Double standard again.

Yeah there was a radio phone in with a Chelsea fan and he admitted Poll was a disaster.

[1864roverite]

thats funny that, a disaster ?

the man is a total nobhead