Spain 4 Ukraine 0

[Flopsy]

Crouch is world class!!!!

Can anyone name a better right back than Gary Neville? (Man U hating specs aside)

[neekoy]

Salgado, Daniel Alves, Javier Zanetti, Belletti and i'll take Puyol, Cordoba and Gallas and put them there before him as well.

One more for you, Neill.

Ashley Cole is the best left back in the world, no two ways about it for me.

Ashley Cole isn't even the best left back playing for Arsenal

[Eddie]

Salgado, Daniel Alves, Javier Zanetti, Belletti and i'll take Puyol, Cordoba and Gallas and put them there before him as well.

One more for you, Neill.

Ashley Cole isn't even the best left back playing for Arsenal

Nonsense, on both points. You are quite blinded by your dislike of the England team I'm afraid.

[neekoy]

Eddie, come on mate, you would honestly put G Neville ahead of those players I mentioned?

Do you watch football?

[cn_barlow]

I'm with Eddie on this one....

With the exception of crouch...i beleive England have a world class player in every position.

Neekoy...Beckham IS world class...name me one player who has a better delivery and work rate? He's coming off the back of his best season for Donkeys years. Owen is world class...granted he needs minutes on the pitch, somehting that Sven doesn't seem to want to give him...But he will show his class this tournament!

As for 'England looked 3rd bestin their group'.....well where does that leave Brazil then? Bottom of their group?

I was taking you seriously until you claimed that Lucas Neill was world class.......Surely that happens as soon as he signs his spurs contract! :ph34r:

[Eddie]

Yes I do and yes I would. I think he has been an unsung hero for Manchester United and for England. He never lets you down and is good both as a defender and going forward. If his name was Nevillinho I have no doubt people would clamour to see him. The simple fact of the matter is that peop don't see English players as being as exciting nor as good as their foreign counterparts. This is usually because we either watch them too often and so often don't appreciate them as much as we do players who we only see no highlight reels, or it is because of the nature of the Premier League. Either way I can assure you that last Saturday I was in a bar before the England game and when I told some of them that I was English and supported England the bar suddenly turned into a group discussion of the quality of the England team and they proceeded to list the squad praising virtually every player. Like it or not Neekoy this England team is good, very good.

[Drakefyre]

Nonsense, on both points. You are quite blinded by your dislike of the England team I'm afraid.

We're not the ones that seem blinded ...

[Flopsy]

The england team is one of 5 teams that can win the cup we have good players in all positions (except hargreaves and Jenas but enough of that).

If Gary Neville signed for Rovers this week id be over the moon. Being a gobby ###### aside he is the most consistantly good right back in the Premiership and possibly in the world.

Lucas is a good right back but hes had 2 good seasons out of what? 5?

[SKARBELLY]

Somo of you lot are completely maaaayde. Or blind.

Spain struggled to get to the World Cup, only qualifyng via the play-offs. and they had a p1ss easy group.

Ukraine had a much harder group and walked it. So what does that tell us about their respective chances?

Nowt.

Yesterday Ukraine were the worst team I have seen in years. I'm not surprised the manager did his nut afterwards, those players clearly have no shame. Spain yesterday played brilliant attacking footy and were lucky. OK, you make your own luck and all that, but in major tournaments, Spain have rarely been a lucky team. (THE game that made FIFA completely change the refereeing system at the World Cup was the shambles that was S.Korea v Spain in the last world cup. If that had happened SK v England, we'd have invaded!). But I suspect the truth is that Spain won't play as well again (or won't be alllowed etc) and Ukraine won't play as badly. In fact, the Saudis are probably in for a 9 -0 type hammering.

What has all this got to do with England? This afternoon they have to be "brave"and, if they get the breaks, ruthless. We are playing T&T for crying out loud! Beenhakker is playing mind-games because he knows the reality about this match. Any result less than a win by at least four (yes, FOUR) goals and England don't (and won't) get anywhere near the semis, let alone win the thing.

[RoyRover]

I'm not actually really English, so I can look at it from a decently objective stance. Raul isn't the player he was, Reyes has yet to become the player he could be and based on what they have actually produced for their club sides Downing is the better player, Jaoquin is about as overrated as they come and though a good player I would struggle to choose between him and Lennon to be honest and I believe that Lennon will be the better player, I don't think that much of Canizares but I don't think that much of James either, both are alright, while Fabregas will be a better player than Carrick I would rather have Carrick now than Fabregas.

England's fully fit starting 11 is in my opinion far superior to Spain's and I am not sure that any Spanish player, with the possible exception of keepers would be chosen of their English rival. The only other area I would think of is in central midfield where they might choose for a different combination for tactical reasons, but even there I am not sure.

As for how I can lump England, Brazil and Argentina together it is on the simple fact that basically every position in the England first 11 is occupied by a world class player.

I could easily argue with you that France have a wonderful first 11 and squad and should be ranked up their with the best.

You say that you can take a decently objective stance, then you write that Reyes who is arguably Arsenals 2nd best attacking player isn't as good as Downing, a player who if was as good as everyone thought would surely have played much more for England, even if Joe Cole looks like he has made the position his own. Joaquin has been one of the most devastating wingers in world football for the last number of years, with the likes of Real Madrid, Barcelona, Chelsea and United all wanting him at some point, while Aaron Lennon has had an impressive second half to a season. I agree that Raul isn't the player that he once was, but England would love to have a someone like him to come off the bench, especially with Rooney and Owen not being at their best. I'm sorry, but the idea that Carrick is better than Fabregas is laughable.

On paper Lampard and Gerrard is a world class midfield, but this isn't fantasy football and they don't work together and as you say, any one of the Xavi, Alonso and Senna would get into the team because of tactical reasons. Gary Neville isn't a world class right back. He's one of the most consistent and dependable, but Carlos Puyol would be a far better bet in that position, if not in the centre, where Rio is world class but is consistently prone to mistakes and if it weren't for his pace I doubt that he'd be consider as such.

An objective view would take into account that a full England team (which is supposed to be far superior) were totally outclassed last year against Spain, albeit in a friendly match, but one in which both teams went all out in. What I don't get is that during the qualification rounds is that England played with their best 11 (including a fully fit Rooney and Owen), but frequently failed to impress and didn't play to level which people believe that they will need to World Cup. What has changed so dramatically? Is it simply a case that the players will up their efforts? As you say Eddie, you could probably argue that France are up their with the best of them (which I believe is still the case), like you're arguing that England have a superior squad to Spains.

Edited June 15, 2006 by RoyRover

[neekoy]

I'm with Eddie on this one....

With the exception of crouch...i beleive England have a world class player in every position.

Neekoy...Beckham IS world class...name me one player who has a better delivery and work rate? He's coming off the back of his best season for Donkeys years. Owen is world class...granted he needs minutes on the pitch, somehting that Sven doesn't seem to want to give him...But he will show his class this tournament!

As for 'England looked 3rd bestin their group'.....well where does that leave Brazil then? Bottom of their group?

I was taking you seriously until you claimed that Lucas Neill was world class.......Surely that happens as soon as he signs his spurs contract! :ph34r:

I didn't say Lucas was World Class, I said he was better then Neville

If Owen is world class so is Raul.

Ronaldinho has a better delivery and workrate

FOR EDDIE, England has a team capable of winning the WC, but it won't. Why do you think I hate the England team so much? I actually enjoy watching them play, they are overrated as a whole, but I still like to watch them play.

[cn_barlow]

I should've read all the way through before i entered this debate.....

Spain do have a very talented squad.....but i do not watch them week in week out so i cannot possibly comment further. What i can comment on is the England team and i still think that England have 11 world class players and will win the world cup

Do you get to watch much spanish football in Aus Neekoy?

I didn't say Lucas was World Class, I said he was better then Neville

If Owen is world class so is Raul.

Ronaldinho has a better delivery and workrate

FOR EDDIE, England has a team capable of winning the WC, but it won't. Why do you think I hate the England team so much? I actually enjoy watching them play, they are overrated as a whole, but I still like to watch them play.

Lucas Neill is not better than Gary Neville....

Beckham has a better delivery than Ronaldinho.....just becasue he is the best player in the world doesn't mean he is the best at every single aspect of the game....he is at most, but not in delivery.....or workrate.

Edited June 15, 2006 by cn_barlow

[neekoy]

I should've read all the way through before i entered this debate.....

Spain do have a very talented squad.....but i do not watch them week in week out so i cannot possibly comment further. What i can comment on is the England team and i still think that England have 11 world class players and will win the world cup

Do you get to watch much spanish football in Aus Neekoy?

Lucas Neill is not better than Gary Neville....

Beckham has a better delivery than Ronaldinho.....just becasue he is the best player in the world doesn't mean he is the best at every single aspect of the game....he is at most, but not in delivery.....or workrate.

Most of the big La Liga games and every champions league game, that's enough for me to know the spanish players. I also see a good variation of Ligue 1, Serie A, Bundesliga and Premier League. If you only watched Premier League football week in week out you could be excused for believing that England have 11 World Class players in ther run-on squad because the majority of them play for big clubs.

I am sorry but World Class to me means, at a maximum, the top 10 players in each position and only Gerrard, Terry and Lampard would get a sniff at a spot in a world team.

Ronaldinho has THE best passing game in the world. He also runs from box to box, chasing lost ball, setting up play and scoring goals. His workrate is measured because when he gets the ball he is looking to do something, if your talking about running around like a headless chicken then Dickov and Emerton beat Beckham hands down.

[RoyRover]

Another thing that you people need to remember is that there are world class players, who are better than other world class players. Just because Owen is world class, it doesn't mean that he's as good as Shevchenko or Henry.

Also, I don't need to be convinced about the quality of England, because they have a good team and are rightly up there with the six or seven other teams that have designs on the World Cup.

[Ronin]

England may have the players, but I don't think they'll win it, purely because of Sven. Tactically, he doesn't seem to have a Plan B, or at least a plan that doesn't revolve around Rooney. With Rooney playing, England's performance will improve but I still think it's Quarters at best.

[Eddie]

You say that you can take a decently objective stance, then you write that Reyes who is arguably Arsenals 2nd best attacking player isn't as good as Downing, a player who if was as good as everyone thought would surely have played much more for England, even if Joe Cole looks like he has made the position his own.

Gary Neville isn't a world class right back. He's one of the most consistent and dependable, but Carlos Puyol would be a far better bet in that position, if not in the centre, where Rio is world class but is consistently prone to mistakes and if it weren't for his pace I doubt that he'd be consider as such.

If Reyes is as good as you say he is why isn't he in the Spanish side? He isn't Arsenal's second best attacking player, he is certainly behind Henry and Van Persie and after that I would still place him behind a few of their other attacking options either up front or in midfield, though he has undoubted talent.

Think what you like about Neville, but I will stand by that there is no right back I would rather see in that England team. While even if you consider Ferdinand prone to error, which I don't really believe to be true, Carragher is a better defendr than Puyol and I would still take Campbell over him as well.

I didn't say Lucas was World Class, I said he was better then Neville

If Owen is world class so is Raul.

Ronaldinho has a better delivery and workrate

FOR EDDIE, England has a team capable of winning the WC, but it won't. Why do you think I hate the England team so much? I actually enjoy watching them play, they are overrated as a whole, but I still like to watch them play.

No, Raul is past it, that is why he is no longer holding down his spot in the Spanish side and injuries have taken their toll and his recent record in La Liga isn't particularly impressive. Owen had a better record than Raul when he was at Real Madrid and had it not been for his injury last season I think he would have been the top scoring Englishman in the Premiership this year and we would not have finished sixth. Ronaldinho doesn't have a better delivery than Beckham, no one does. The man's passing is second to none, especially from dead ball situations. Just watch how many corners he wastes compared to other top class players, even if you compare him to someone like Gerrard, who also has a wonderful passing range, when Beckham goes off of the field the quality drops. Ronaldinho is the better overall player, but he isn't the best at everything.

Why do I think you dislike the England team? Quite simple really, you never have a good thing to say about our football, cricket or rugby team. We've beaten you in the ashes, won the rugby world cup and now have one of the best sides going into the football world cup and the only thing you can do is have a go at our side.

Most of the big La Liga games and every champions league game, that's enough for me to know the spanish players. I also see a good variation of Ligue 1, Serie A, Bundesliga and Premier League. If you only watched Premier League football week in week out you could be excused for believing that England have 11 World Class players in ther run-on squad because the majority of them play for big clubs.

I am sorry but World Class to me means, at a maximum, the top 10 players in each position and only Gerrard, Terry and Lampard would get a sniff at a spot in a world team.

Ronaldinho has THE best passing game in the world. He also runs from box to box, chasing lost ball, setting up play and scoring goals. His workrate is measured because when he gets the ball he is looking to do something, if your talking about running around like a headless chicken then Dickov and Emerton beat Beckham hands down.

Beckham doesn't run around like a headless chicken, he is very effective at getting the ball. I can name more players than that who are in the top 10 in the England side, including Rooney, Neville, Ashley Cole and Beckham (you find me 10 better right midfielders, or have you not watched la liga lately?). I also consider Ferdinand to be in the top 10 central defenders, Robinson would probably be 8/9/10 on my list of keepers and I think Joe Cole will gradually find his way onto the list though he suffers from the fact that he is still finding out exactly what his position is. You won't agree with me but for his ability to score goals Owen would make my list of top 10 strikers, he may not be able to do 15 step overs have he may not have grown up somewhere warm but when it comes to putting the ball in the back of the net there are few better, as his record shows.

I don't think England are dead on to win it, for me they still have a lot of work to do and show just how good they are before I start to get excited, but they can. The thing is that one of 10-15 sides can beat the others on a good day and a slightly off one for the other, so to feel overly confident in a knock-out competition would be foolish. What I will stand by is that England are amongst the top 3 sides in the world, who I consider to be a little bit in front of the following pack, which contains the likes of Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, France, Italy and the Czechs.

[rover6]

It's all very well England having supposed world class players who dominate the short-lists for awards but if they can't play as a team, there's no point hyping them up.

I've named them axis of confusion and I still cannot believe how two multi-talented players in Lampard and Gerrard can't get a partnership going. On current form, I'd go for a Ballack-Frings midfield duo over the perpetually mis-firing England guys.

And Eddie, as you probably expected, I have to disagree with your point about Owen being in the top ten in the world. A world class striker is able to hold the ball up and assist his team outside of the box. Owen just isn't good at that and if the team are struggling, he is a burden. Imo he ranks alongside players like Pauleta. Fantastic goal-getters but not up there with guys like Rooney, Henry and Shevchenko.

If England get Rooney back and in-form, then we become a team to fear.

Edited June 15, 2006 by rover6

[RoyRover]

If Reyes is as good as you say he is why isn't he in the Spanish side?

No, Raul is past it, that is why he is no longer holding down his spot in the Spanish side and injuries have taken their toll and his recent record in La Liga isn't particularly impressive.

Reyes is extremely good, it's because Spain are so strong and have so much strength in depth that he isn't on the starting 11.

[Eddie]

Same goes for Downing then.

[rover6]

Reyes isn't in the starting line-up of Spain because they are playing a diamond formation, with the full-backs providing the width. Add that to the fact that he lost his form (and starting place) at Arsenal.

[Jan]

Spain 4- Ukraine 0 (Ukraine actually have some good players- Shevchenko screams to mind)

England 2- Trinidad and Tobago 0 (T&T have 5 players from the Scottish Leagues- not all of them from the Premiership).

If you don't see that your assessment of the England team is hopelessly blinkered, I'm sorry for you. You won't win the world cup simply because you do not have a world class player for every position your coach intend to play. You may have 11 world class players, but they can't play together in a team. And Gary Neville is NOT and never will be, anything more than a journeyman.

[Eddie]

He's better than anyone Celtic have. I will stand by that there is no right back I would rather have in the England side.

My point was actually looking past individual results. Only reason any of you have picked up on Spain is because of one game.

Edited June 15, 2006 by Eddie

[Jan]

He's better than anyone Celtic have. I will stand by that there is no right back I would rather have in the England side.

You know someone's lost an argument when they bring in a totally irrelevant fact and try to make it seem even slightly important. It's immature which, given the writer, is apt.

[Rovermatt]

He's better than anyone Celtic have.

Yes indeed. Celtic's right-back is Paul Telfer...

[Eddie]

It is just there is no way I can win is there. The fact that Neville is both English and a United player means a lot you don't like him. Throw in the fact that he has also been one of the most underrated players in the Premiership and International football for the past 10 or so years and you will see there isn't a point. He is a very good defender, no one better in the Premiership and I don't think there is really one better in the world. Of course there are other good ones out there, but once you have one of them you wouldn't swap them, England have Neville so there is no one England would rather have. He never makes mistakes (though he probably will now) and he is also very good going forward. How about you come up with a genuine reason why Neville isn't the best in the world in his position?