USA 1 Italy 1

[cn_barlow]

You know how the old saying goes: the best referees are the ones that you never even knew were on the field, such was their minimal impact on the game.

Well, Larrionda put his stamp on this match from the get-go. It's a shame, because this had a chance to be a really great game. Cookiemonster showed what the commentators were talking about after the game: he was suspended from the 2002 World Cup for "irregularities" in his refereeing. So how does he make it back onto the approved list for this year's Cup? Yet another black eye for FIFA. If that man is ever allowed to referee another World Cup match, it will be a disaster for football.

I'll just say this about the refereeing, then I'm done: it's the World Cup, for God's sake. You have got to give the players some leeway, especially when you consider how physical a match like this one is going to be. Incidentally, I thought that while De Rossi's red card was fully deserved, Pope's was certainly questionable, and Mastroeni's was a joke. A straight red for a mistimed tackle? A yellow would have been fully deserved, but to send a man off in the World Cup for a mistimed tackle is absolute tripe.

As for the (completely overshadowed) game: you're absolutely right in your assessment, Joey. The U.S. did very well to get a point, especially after going down 1-0 and especially after going down to 9 men. I think what may have frustrated the commentators was the fact that the U.S. opened by controlling play in the first 20 minutes with 11 a side, and even at 10-v-10 it would have been a pretty even game. Down to 9 men, it turned into a siege; granted, we did well to hold off the Italians, but given the way the U.S. controlled the flow of the game for most of the first half, you got the feeling that the Azzurri may have been there for the taking.

The U.S. were fortunate with the own goal, but in the end I think the point was a fully deserved one.

I honestly dont think you can have any complaints about the sendings off....the first one could've easily broken the guys ankle and the second was a booking. Although i think he got the sendings off right....I agree that the ref was poor on the whole though....the u.s second goal should've stood in my opinion.

The performance should give the US confidence going into the final game with Ghana...should be a cracker!!!

[Philly Rover ®]

I honestly dont think you can have any complaints about the sendings off....the first one could've easily broken the guys ankle and the second was a booking. Although i think he got the sendings off right....I agree that the ref was poor on the whole though....the u.s second goal should've stood in my opinion.

The performance should give the US confidence going into the final game with Ghana...should be a cracker!!!

Pope's red was, I said, questionable. If you watch the replay, he got some of the ball while he took the player... as a first yellow I could see that, but I've always felt that a referee should be really certain if he's going to send someone off, and I think it's extremely harsh to give a red for that kind of foul.

Mastroeni's red was a joke. Surely a yellow card... but what it really was was a complete make-up call for the Italians, and it completely changed the complexion of the game. For twenty minutes, I really thought we were going to go on and win that game.

You're right about the U.S. and Ghana though... Essien & Co. looked very good today, and the U.S. goes into that knowing its needs three points and some help, so it should be a good one.

Oh, and philip... your prediction for us Yanks didn't quite come true, did it?

[Lathund]

http://www.fwtf.com/temp/red_1.gif

Foot off the ground, studs first, follows through with the other leg (Although that part wasn't too bad) and is nowhere near the ball. Refs had been told to look out for this particular type of challenge too. Could easily have broken his ankle, spot on decision IMO.

Again, noone would have complained about Pope if it had been his first yellow, and IMO there shouldn't be too much weight put on whether it's his first or second card. Card or no card there, 50/50. Neither decision is exactly wrong.

There also seems to be a very clear divide (On the boards I visit anyway) in that Americans find their two cards ridiculous, while most others (And not just Italians) don't. But that's, obviously, down to the general anti-American feelings in Europe..

[Philly Rover ®]

I don't mean to belabor this point, and hopefully this is the last I will say on this, but I just have to disagree, Lathund.

A red card should be an intentional, reckless foul. Mastroeni's was fully deserving of a yellow, but it was more mistimed than malicious. And as for the first/second yellow card thing... perhaps it's just my view, but I think the refs had better be pretty darn sure that someone deserves to go off. And if you find a replay for that one, he got enough ball to save himself from a yellow card.

And Lathund... of course I think the red cards are ridiculous, because they went against my team. You would be pretty upset too if those calls went against Sweden.

Of course, the saddest part of all of this is that the referee is even a topic of discussion. Had he done his job right, we could be talking about what a great match it was instead of analyzing the referee's nightmare of a game.

[brfcshabba]

Essien got away with two tackles similar to that last season

[Lathund]

And Lathund... of course I think the red cards are ridiculous, because they went against my team. You would be pretty upset too if those calls went against Sweden.

Honestly (And you don't have to believe it, but I'm being honest here) I wouldn't think they were ridiculous. Very possible that I'd think they were wrong (I can't know for sure as it wasn't Sweden playing), and I understand anyone saying so, but they weren't ridiculous. And there's a clear difference there. For the first card it's pretty obvious that his foot is off the ground, studs first, and doesn't get the ball. It doesn't have to be malicious, as seen countless times in the past. Whether it's red or yellow is a matter of whether you follow the stricter interpretation the refs have been instructed for this WC, or the usual one. Ridiculous implies that there's nothing whatsoever to support the decision, but there clearly was. Perhaps not quite enough, but that's a different matter.

The second, to me, comes down to whether the ref should look at the incident more separately or take into account the effect it'll have on the quality of the game. It might have been a tad harsh (And like I said, I wouldn't have thought it wrong to let it slide), but again it wasn't ridiculous.

But let's just agree to disagree, like you say. It'll take time before any American can see sense in this game. Just look at the English and the disallowed goal in '04, still not over it Not that it matters though, but it was more like 9½ v 9 with Perrotta being pretty much immobile for the last ~25 minutes.

Anyway, at least you're not like this guy (Said ~55 minutes into the game on another forum)

This is rubbish, and with every horrendous call, the legitimacy of this match is further in doubt. I say again that Bruce Arena should pull the team off the pitch, and the U.S. Soccer Federation should leave the tournament. The stakes are enourmous, and what is FIFA going to do to make up for this? Suspend the referee? Meanwhile, a team will be out of the tournament because of this. That is why the U.S. should leave the pitch and exit the tournament. FIFA should be made to account for this immediately by having a team leave the pitch in protest.

EDIT:

Essien got away with two tackles similar to that last season

And Gerrard too in the past, along with many others. Doesn't mean anything though does it? Similar isn't the same as identical. Keep in mind what the referees have been instructed to keep an extra eye on during this tournament. Also if you follow the logic that refs should be more lenient with 2nd yellows "for the sake of the game", then can't they also be harsher with the reds for the same reason? 10v10 makes for a better game than 10v11.

EDIT #2: Dunno if I can be arsed to reply more here though. I think my view on this is pretty clear already. Some agree, some disagree.

Edited June 17, 2006 by Lathund

[brfcshabba]

Anyway, at least you're not like this guy (Said ~55 minutes into the game on another forum)

I read that thread. He seemed to be making that point throughout the match. Most of the forum were laughing at him

[92er]

I was watching the game as a neutral and I thought the ref could justify all 3 sendings off.

[Philly Rover ®]

Oh really, 92er? I think you're full of crap.

Agree to disagree then, Lathund, but I think we each know where each other is coming from. The red cards aside, that referee was still bad, and it'd be best for the tournament if that's his last appearance. I'd hate for that same thing to happen in another game because of that guy, because as I said, it totally overshadows the match itself.

And thankfully, not all American fans are like the one that posted that crap. It's like any set of fans: there's good ones and bad ones. Hopefully those of us on this board come off as the good ones.

It'll be interesting to see what my fellow countrymen have to say, since I'm the only one who's posted anything yet!

[ChicagoRover]

I thought the ref's cards against Pope is justified. Pope was playing recklessly. He should have be substituted after halftime because you can sense the Ref was watching Pope closely.

The red card against Pablo is iffy. A yellow card would have been better to serve as a warning. He didn't tackle on purpose - just mistimed like PhillyRover said. The ref, I feel, got too zealous in his desire to control the game since both teams were playing hard. Look at the # of fouls committed in this game - just a hard-nosed game.

Arena need to learn how to utilize substitution during the game. He didn't bother substituting the last 10 minutes of the game when the Italian defense is clearly gassed. Wouldn't have hurt to put in Eddie Johnson in lieu of Beasley who played horrid.

It could be fortunate for us that the two forwards for Ghana is out of the next game. We'll see how the US respond. I don't mind Pope being out (he plays too recklessly) but Pablo's not playing will make things difficult.

[Drakefyre]

I didn't even think Pope's tackle was a foul, and definitely not a yellow.

[Eddie]

Personally I thought that the ref got everything right tonight. De Rossi had to go and so did Mastreoni (if you slide in with studs showing you are always asking for trouble, add to that the fact that you are going in with two feet, late and one foot slightly off of the ground and you'll be lucky to get away with it), while Pope, given his experience, should have known better than to have gone in for a tackle like that having already been booked, both bookings were deserved. It would have been nice had the officials managed to keep the Italian play acting under wraps, but I don't think that is really possible and they never got away with anything that was too serious. As for the goal, the player was certainly "active" or whatever term we are supposed to use now. Have to say French TV only showed it twice so maybe when I see it again in the morning some of the details I thought to be so might be wrong, but though he didn't touch the ball (or did he...really don't think he did) it appeared as if he tried to flick it (though was that his attempt to get out of the way?), but even if neither of those are true the fact that he was stood directly in the line of sight for the keeper, right through the path of the ball and so close to the goal means that he has to be considered active in what happened.

[philipl]

The red cards for the American players were debatable to harsh but the missed penalty and some of the other decisions against the Americans were truly bad.

Have to say Italy were awful and could well fail to hold on for the point they need against the Czechs to qualify.

Well done to the USA for getting at least a point (would have been three with an OK ref) but I think Ghana will win the last game in the Group.

[neekoy]

Excellent job by the US, I was one that envisaged a slaughter but they really played what many would say beyond their means.

[USABlue]

I thought the U.S. did really well. I had actually picked the US to win this one long before the WC started (had not realised Arena is not that good with his tactics though) Missed the first sending off but I thought the second was a joke. I did not see any real contact, just an Italian rolling around on the ground after he landed. Are those ear pieces really for the refs to communicate with linesman or does Blatter bark down instrutions to the refs.

America should have done better after the Italian sending off, to me it was time to hold possesion and be patient, stroke the ball around make the cheats chase it.

The officiating in general has been pith poor, as far as letting things go the refs are blowing for the merest of things (Blatter's Instrutions?) However they are consistant with it so I'll give them that. In FIFA's effort to promote the beautiful game, in my opinion, they are somewhat spoiling it with too many stoppages. Good tourney though so far.

Also, did anyone think the USA's disallowed goal had an air of Cisse's "pulled away foot" about it. One of the first things FIFA should do after this tourney is switch the offside rule back, I said it before and I will say it again, it is a difficult enough decision to apply correctly as it was but this active inactive just allows too much discretion and opinion by the officials.

This rule as with all rules should be clear concise and black or white, it's just got too much of a grey area for me.

Interesting last games in this group then lads and lassies, anyone can win, anyone can go home.

Edited June 18, 2006 by USABlue

[USABlue]

I was watching the game as a neutral and I thought the ref could justify all 3 sendings off.

The phrase Oxy Moron springs to mind.

[cn_barlow]

I don't mean to belabor this point, and hopefully this is the last I will say on this, but I just have to disagree, Lathund.

A red card should be an intentional, reckless foul. Mastroeni's was fully deserving of a yellow, but it was more mistimed than malicious. And as for the first/second yellow card thing... perhaps it's just my view, but I think the refs had better be pretty darn sure that someone deserves to go off. And if you find a replay for that one, he got enough ball to save himself from a yellow card.

And Lathund... of course I think the red cards are ridiculous, because they went against my team. You would be pretty upset too if those calls went against Sweden.

Of course, the saddest part of all of this is that the referee is even a topic of discussion. Had he done his job right, we could be talking about what a great match it was instead of analyzing the referee's nightmare of a game.

I dont think any of the US red cards would've happened in the premiership...but its not the premiership, and referees seem to be pretty strict during the WC especially on tackles such as the first Sending Off. I don't think you can blame the referee for the decision because everyother ref in the tournament would've done the same thing if they were worth their salt, as that's what they've been tolds to crack down on!

With all the talk of the sending's off, you shouldn't forget the manner in which the US played afterwards...maybe the best performance so far in the compitition..obviously for different reasons than Argentina. You should be very proud!

Edited June 18, 2006 by cn_barlow

[American]

We dominated 11 on 12. Without the first (bad) red card, Pope probably isn't playing so reckless to get the second. Tremendous atmosphere, probably the best you'll ever see at a US match. Tickets were going at up to 100 Euro before the match.

As for the Italians, are they taking lessons from Arsenal on how to dive? Such a pathetic display by a supposedly world class team. There is a reason we rank above them on the FIFA list and without the ref, today's match would have shown that. (Today's match also showed why people say Keller is one of the best keepers in the world. My favorite was when he punted the ball at the Italian faking injury on the side of the field.)

Oh and Philip, thanks for the predictions. With your track record, I see us going through now.

[Eddie]

You've only got one point American. As for Keller being one of the best keepers in the world, I'm not so sure about that one. He was really only called on once to make a save during the match which he did well.

Have to agree with USAblue when I saw the goal I did think back to the Cisse goal. I still think all three red cards were deserved. As for the USA being the only team that didn't get the rub of the green with officials, they were quite lucky with some of the times that the Italians were called offside.

Edited June 18, 2006 by Eddie

[Rover4ever]

USA's first red card was a horrible challenge that could have broken Pirlo's leg as bad as Cisse's.

It doesnt reflect well on the EPL for fans to say , "such and such would never be penalised in England". That was teh case before when Keane and Gerrard got away with murder.

However, Referees have become stricter even in England, cue Ronaldo's red against Man City, Gerrard against Everton or Dickov's against West Ham. And why shouldnt they?

There's nothing "manly" about challenges which break legs. Such fouls deserve to be punished with a red card and nothing else.

There is a reason we rank above them on the FIFA list and without the ref, today's match would have shown that.

USA may have beaten Italy 11 on 11. But please dont bring FIFA rankings into this.

USA and Mexico are better than Argentina and Spain as well, and the Czech Republic is the 2nd best side in the world according to that joke of a ranking

[Lathund]

The constant whining at how Italy cheated (Not necessarily on here), getting the word "cheat" into every sentence etc. just makes me wish Italy had won the game. So incredibly sore "losers" after drawing a game 1-1 where you had ZERO shots on target... Italy don't dive more than other teams, but because people watch their games knowing their reputation they interpret anything as a dive. Been shown in countless psychological experiments that people see what they want to see.

[philipl]

We dominated 11 on 12. Without the first (bad) red card, Pope probably isn't playing so reckless to get the second. Tremendous atmosphere, probably the best you'll ever see at a US match. Tickets were going at up to 100 Euro before the match.

As for the Italians, are they taking lessons from Arsenal on how to dive? Such a pathetic display by a supposedly world class team. There is a reason we rank above them on the FIFA list and without the ref, today's match would have shown that. (Today's match also showed why people say Keller is one of the best keepers in the world. My favorite was when he punted the ball at the Italian faking injury on the side of the field.)

Oh and Philip, thanks for the predictions. With your track record, I see us going through now.

It looked like it was really buzzing in the stadium.

America did get lucky to the extent that the og was straight out of the Hayden Mullins school of defending and just as hilarious. Is it true that was your only shot on goal?

Anyway, there is a difference between prediction and sentiment- I was cheering for OOSA last night.

[American]

We were creating chances, and in 11 on 12, we would have at least put shots on goal. Not to say we would have scored, but it would have been nice to be given a chance.

And Italy don't dive more than the next teams.... The next teams being Chelsea and Arsenal. It was interesting that guys would be stretchered off the field only to come back on seconds later.

As for Rover4Ever, I was talking to German fans who said it wouldn't have been red in their league and Italian fans who said the same thing.

[SouthAussieRover]

As for Rover4Ever, I was talking to German fans who said it wouldn't have been red in their league and Italian fans who said the same thing.

Well it should be.

A very nasty challenge worthy of the red card.

[Lathund]

We were creating chances, and in 11 on 12, we would have at least put shots on goal.

This is something else that annoys me... you disagree with some decisions fine, but let it go will you? The continuous insinuations that the ref was paid for or otherwise biased are getting tiresome and have no foundation in reality. Anyone looking at the game objectively can see his reasoning behind the cards even if they don't necessarily agree.

You were 11v11 for 28 minutes, 11v10 for 17, and didn't have any shots on goal during that time.

And no, watching the other games I don't find Italy to be diving more than others. You can cry all you want because you didn't win, but it doesn't make what you say anymore true. I wonder what you'll be whining about if you lose to Ghana, as they don't have any bad reputation that I know of.