England 2 Sweden 2

[cn_barlow]

Owen Hargreaves played well last night....for me the second best England player behind J. Cole. Its funny how he is always the scapegoat even when he plays well. So he gave away a corner that led to the goal...i dont think he is to blame half as much as the defenders who were caught napping in the penalty area....

Apart from the 2 goals did England have any shots on target?

[Flopsy]

Lamplard had about 30, Rooney had a couple blocked

[adopted scouser]

Still don't really believe we can do it. Portugal, Argies etc all seem to want it more.

Need more of this.

[Flopsy]

anyone else see that live and not realise it had gone in for a split second? I was just about to launch into a tirade about him being a greedy trickpony and then had to eat some humble pie.

[BlueMonday]

anyone else see that live and not realise it had gone in for a split second? I was just about to launch into a tirade about him being a greedy trickpony and then had to eat some humble pie.

Yep. Turned away in disgust only for Clive to go bonkers.

For a split second didn't know what was happening.

A bit like Sven

[Philly Rover ®]

Sven the sedative?

Interesting article on SGE's tactical struggles, and good read for all the English fans out there. Makes a good argument not only for 4-5-1, but for dropping Beckham for Lennon to fit that system.

[joey_big_nose]

Well, I'm watching Argentina at the moment and they are a million billion times better than us. Unbelievable.

I guess, as that article suggests, we could play a line up like this:

----------------Rooney--------------

Joe Cole----------------Lennon----

---------Gerrard Lampard ---------

------------Hargreaves--------------

A Cole Terry Campbell Carragher

---------------Robinson

We could play some really nice football that way but we would have no height in the box? Suppose I could maybe see Sven being this bold next game, maybe not dropping Beckham and instead putting him in instead of Lampard.

I think Sven is being a lot more open to tactical experimentation at the moment.

Edited June 21, 2006 by joey_big_nose

[RevidgeBlue]

Robinson has looked very poor to me, all tournament. He's flapping at any cross and just to look at him, he seems full of fear.

I think that's very harsh, the Sweden effort that came off the bar was actually a stunning save when you saw it again in slow motion.

Also I'm not normally one who has any sympathy when today's keepers moan about the modern ball but I have to say this new one for the World Cup flies like a missile and dips and swerves for fun. Robinson referred to it himself before the World Cup calling it "extremely keeper unfriendly" Perhaps he's built up a bit of a mental block about it?

Anyway back to Sven I think we see more and more evidence with every passing game the guy's a complete fraud. We generally don't look in the least bit threatning from open play, only posing any real threat when someone falls over within range of the opposition goal allowing Beckham to whip a free kick in.

(About his only worthwhile contribution these days as well)

We are also now suffering for Sven's selection lunacy in taking a crocked Owen and Rooney, Crouch and a 17 year old only there for the experience. We must be the only team there with a 22 man squad. Sorry, make that 21 - wonder how Jermaine Jenas is enjoying his summer hols this year?

Wonder what the odds are on us finishing the tournament with NO available strikers? Sounds daft but it's only Rooney breaking down and a suspension or so away.

Sven will certainly have got his own back on the FA if that happens.

[BuckyRover]

Well, I'm watching Argentina at the moment and they are a million billion times better than us. Unbelievable.

I guess, as that article suggests, we could play a line up like this:

We could play some really nice football that way but we would have no height in the box? Suppose I could maybe see Sven being this bold next game, maybe not dropping Beckham and instead putting him in instead of Lampard.

I think Sven is being a lot more open to tactical experimentation at the moment.

I think it would be more likely if Lennon was still on the bench, with Lampard and Beckham in the centre and Gerrard and Cole playing off Rooney.

I think that could work quite well, with Downing, Lennon and Crouch all ready to make an impact from the bench when required.

If it worked for Chelsea, it could work for us.

[joey_big_nose]

To be fair to Sven I would not be full of any sort of confidence if we were coming into games with Defoe or Bent up front. Decent players but hardly going to worry the likes of Puyol or Ayala. At least Crouch's height gives us something different.

Realistically I think we are better of playing Cole or Gerrard as strikers rather than using those guys so I guess that was Sven's idea. Still clearly we could have used Defoe rather than have Walcott just in case, asyou say Rev, Rooney breaks down and we are really screwed.

And yes, the inclusion of Jenas does seem utterly pointless!

Edited June 21, 2006 by joey_big_nose

[herbergeehh]

Well, I'm watching Argentina at the moment and they are a million billion times better than us. Unbelievable.

Is it really that unbelievable?

When looking at the England squad, I can't see - with the exception of Rooney and J.Cole / Beckham - any players with the techniqual ability of players in the other "big nation" teams. (Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Italy, France, Germany) Comparison with Argentina:

Defence: Even steven, mostly because of Pekerman's silly Zanetti drop, Argentina scores a point on Sorin's good passing and Ayala's pace - England okay in this department, even with A.Cole lacking match practice.

Midfield: Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard, J.Cole - Cambiasso, Mascherano, Riquelme, Maxi

First of all, Argentina has brought players that complement (sp?) each other very well. Mascherano is the anchorman, a world class at that, Cambiasso is both hardworking and can pass the ball around very well, whilst Maxi Rodriguez is more of a winger, but with good techniqual ability. In front of them, the worldclass playmaker Riquelme, who can hit all kinds of passes, long, short, high, low, and is also very mobile - he is always there to pass to, and he is excellent at link-up play. He can do this because Mascherano is excellent at doing the hard work defensively, and both Cambiasso and Maxi have good stamina.

England's midfield has first of all three very good passers of the ball - LONG range. Joe Cole is the dribling wide player, but his passing quality vary a lot. I would say that none of the four has the extreme Pirlo, Riquelme, Ronaldinho quality in their short passing, they can rarely unlock a deep-lying defence (ref. T&T) with a genius' touch, what they can do is shoot from distance or play the ball wide. (Where there's few to take on the fullbacks, I might add!)

Up front, England has got Owen - who basically only poach in the space behind defenders (which doesn't exists against teams like T&T) - and Crouch, who is tall yet still surprisingly OKAY in the air (plus he has some deft touches, but compared to other strike forces it's not worth mentioning) - and Rooney who is your talisman in many ways, he's the one who has to do the spectacular in games like T&T.

Argentina has Crespo and Saviola, two mobile strikers - one a classical goalscorer who knows all the tricks to get away from defenders, and the other a pacy striker with great first touch and decent vision.

The bench illustrates the difference too imo, whilst Argentina can play Tevez, Messi, Aimar and the target man Julio Cruz - England has to count on Aaron Lennon and the unproven Walcott, plus Carrick and Downing - the first a decent long range passer aswell, the latter has nothing to offer this early in his career as far as I can tell.

My point being, England doesn't have the elegance, the techniqual brilliance - which I believe is necessary unless you are very lucky - or extremely good at a different kind of football. (Which England play, admittedly it can work very well if the players are good enough - but in my opinion, unfortunately for you they are not)

England has a whole midfield lineup who is good at long range passing and shooting from distance, when your opponents stick a 6'8 man and eight of his teammates in their own half England will struggle.

And yes, before anyone asks, I don't particularly like the current England, I think they are the most boring team in the World Cup based on the first three matches - and I'm probably exaggerating my points without really trying to..

[joey_big_nose]

The unbelivable was not a not of suprise, i am aware how good Argentina are, just that the stuff they were sticking together out there was incredible. Sublime short passing.

As for England clearly we are not is the same league technically as some of the argentine players but I wouldn't say we are too bad- Ashley Cole, Joe Cole, Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Beckham and even Lennon all have good feet. So do Rio and Terry at the back in the context of defenders.

If we can make other teams play to our drum we have a chance- fast paced football and a strong physical dimesion to the game.

I do agree thought that unless we imposed ourselves we would be murdered by Argentina or Brazil. Spain are also a great team but I am a little less worried about them. Italy do not really frighten me.

Anyhow this Argentina side are the best technical side i have EVER seen. Bugger.

ps. The one thing I have garnered from wathcing the game is that if we play them we have to have Hargreaves or a defensive midfielder in the side. We would never get the ball otherwise!

[LeChuck]

As for Hargreaves, he was terrible. I watched him for about twenty minutes and I'd say every passing decision he made was wrong and he got caught in possession twice (including needlessly losing the ball which lead to the corner for Sweden's first equaliser).

Jesus...I know you have a talent for talking complete bullcrap about football (unless it's finances), but I think you've excelled yourself this time. Well done.

As for the Ecuador game...if David Beckham wasn't the name he is, the next line-up would be simple:

Robinson

Carragher Ferdinand Terry Cole

Gerrard Hargreaves Lampard Cole

Rooney Crouch

However, he is David Beckham so he will start...therefore I hope we go with the same, except a midfield of:

Beckham Hargreaves Gerrard Cole

Rooney can NOT play as a lone striker, we'll be taking so much away from his game that he might as well be back in the bench nursing his foot. Dropping deep and running at teams is what he's best at, he has to be part of front two if he plays up top. The best way of putting him in a 4-5-1 is as one of the wide strikers, as Alex Ferguson clearly worked out.

Edited June 21, 2006 by LeChuck

[neekoy]

If Sven plays Carragher and Cole wide, England will get murdered by Equador

Ecuador is very strong coming forward on the flanks. Sven would be better going for a back central three and let Ecuador have the wide positions.

That then allows him to play 4 across in midfield and Rooney in behind Crouch and ...........

[LeChuck]

You'd change the whole shape of the team to something we haven't played for six years or so because of the threat Ecuador will pose? Interesting...I know you have a low opinion of the England national side, but we're undoubtedly not that bad. If the Germans can stick to their 4-4-2, so can we.

[neekoy]

Most definately

All the best coaches do it, Hiddink has played three different starting formations in 3 games and about 6 overall.

Argentina swap from a back three to five as required, Brazil change from 2 to 5 up front. Giving the side flexibility is the name of the game in this years finals.

I wouldn't be looking at the Ecuador game as a missed bullet.

[Flopsy]

surprisingly according to the arttcle from teh guardian I posted yesterday, the best Rooney played for Man u is when he was the focal point of an attacking trident.

so if we play a 4 1 4 1 with Lampard or cole and Gerrard playing off him we might get the best out of him.

Also I think Walcott will play and also HArgreaves had a good game on Tuesday, the Maltese suns obviously got to Phil. I havent listened to Jansenpresty's opinions for ages

[Presty On Tour]

Also I think Walcott will play and also HArgreaves had a good game on Tuesday, the Maltese suns obviously got to Phil. I havent listened to Jansenpresty's opinions for ages

ta now boy

anyway it should be acknowleged or read, not listened.

[Flopsy]

I have someone read it out for me

[Presty On Tour]

Touché

[Flopsy]

not unless you get me really drunk

[LeChuck]

surprisingly according to the arttcle from teh guardian I posted yesterday, the best Rooney played for Man u is when he was the focal point of an attacking trident.

I can't ever recall him playing there for Man Utd this season (I could be wrong, just saying I don't remember it). He's always played with either Saha or Van Nistelrooy and they always play further forward than he does.

[Presty On Tour]

i think they might have done with giggs and ronaldo either side?

i have no proof though

[jim mk2]

Sven's tactical contortions continue.

For the Ecuador game he is planning to play Carrick in the holding midfield role, drop Carragher and switch Hargreaves to right back in a 4-1-4-1 formation with Rooney as the lone striker.

You couldn't make it up folks.

[BuckyRover]

It had to be done.

Even though Hargreaves had a great game and Sven probably would have liked to have played him in the same position, he has realised that without a right back that can get forward, our play isnt really going to come to much.