[Archived] Owen Has A Pop At The Idiot

[FourLaneBlue]

I read today that a number of the England squad are releasing books soon (Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard and others). I suspect we'll find out the real feeling of the players, or at least get a general idea, once all these are out.

Seems like they are queueing up to put the boot in...

...bit late now guys...who did anything about it at the time? Guess the true story of really happened during the Northern Ireland game will come out soon.

Beckham was very, very quick in announcing his retirement from the captaincy. The very day after. At the time I thought it was just more attention-seeking (added to his crying in the stands the day before) but maybe he knows that without his no.1 supporter Sven he will not be in a strong position anymore?

Owen leads the way as players lay into Sven

One question...is Steve McLaren really the man to sort out this mess?

[neekoy]

The more I go over this in my head, I really don't think the tactics were the problem, the balance of players was.

France, Italy, Australia, Holland, Portugal and even Brazil and Spain (at one point or another) played one up front for the tournament and they all had some form of success.

Gerrard and Lampard could have gone to Sven and said that they couldn't play together so make a choice or otherwise it appears they were both happy to plod along with Sven's choices.

What surpises me is that all these players now coming out obviously had strong feelings before the tournament but never went to Sven to discuss their concerns.

How do they explain it other then they must have thought they had a chance to win it under Sven. If that is the case then they are scapegoating.

Sven has to wear the final result of this but is it necessary for the players who bear some respsonsibility to shift blame.

[Eddie]

Maybe he did neekoy.

[neekoy]

Well what do I say to that Eddie?

Maybe he didn't

I find it difficult to believe that if players went to Sven and said "We can't play together in this formation, we have tried but it isn't working" that nothing would change

The man may be a fool in some eyes but surely not that much of a fool

Everything I heard from the players comments during the World Cup is "we can play better","we are close to getting it together", "we haven't hit our peak yet"

Seems pretty confident from a bunch who thought they were going to lose the WC

[Eddie]

Well what do I say to that Eddie?

Maybe he didn't

I find it difficult to believe that if players went to Sven and said "We can't play together in this formation, we have tried but it isn't working" that nothing would change

The man may be a fool in some eyes but surely not that much of a fool

That's exactly what Domenech did.

[broadsword]

I find it difficult to believe that if players went to Sven and said "We can't play together in this formation, we have tried but it isn't working" that nothing would change

You have absolutely no way of knowing that.

And in any case, the manager wouldn't let the players run the team.

He may listen to what they have to say but isn't compelled to act on it.

[neekoy]

I said I find it difficult to believe, it may have happened, but what manager doesn't listen to his senior players?

Mind you blind freddy could see Gerrard and Lampard can't play together so maybe he is just a numpty.

Eddie, what did Domenech do? You are speaking in one lined riddles tonight

Domenech changed his opinion on the balance of the team

He started with Wiltord but it didn't give him enough width, then he tried Trezeguet up front with Henry, then he replaced Wiltord with the hard running Ribery, from there it all got better.

Ribery defended from the front, allowing less defensive work for Zidane and Viera and Makelele arced the central defence. He got the balance right and his tactics payed off (until the final).

Edited July 10, 2006 by neekoy

[rover6]

You have absolutely no way of knowing that.

And in any case, the manager wouldn't let the players run the team.

He may listen to what they have to say but isn't compelled to act on it.

If reports are to believed Gary Neville and Co 'encouraged' Sven to ditch his plans for a diamond midfield formation before Euro 2004.

Hence we saw Paul Scholes regaling the world on the left wing.

[speeeeeeedie]

Owen sticks the boot in and the rest are to follow. No surprise there then. A new Premier League season is around the corner and these overpaid primadonnas want us all to forget their woeful England form and make us think that they play like heroes all the time.

The players are in a difficult situation; if they don't like the manager and come out and say so, what chance do they then have of playing? What would the press have said if England's senior players had no confidence before the trophy? Football is a culture of "yes" men, you back the person in charge until they get the hoof then you get your revenge. It's all well and good us lot posting that players should have said it earlier but their international chances would have been in jeopardy. We had plenty of "yes" men when our old bosses were in charge: Hodgson, Kidd, Souness all had the backing of players and the board, until they were offed.

The longer it goes on, and especially now that the World Cup is over it gets easier to see what happened without the emotion of losing. England were not good enough; fitness levels were sub par, tactics were way off, the manager could not motivate, players underperformed, and we couldn't score penalties as usual.

Edited July 10, 2006 by speeeeeeedie

[Eddie]

I said I find it difficult to believe, it may have happened, but what manager doesn't listen to his senior players?

Mind you blind freddy could see Gerrard and Lampard can't play together so maybe he is just a numpty.

Eddie, what did Domenech do? You are speaking in one lined riddles tonight

Domenech changed his opinion on the balance of the team

He started with Wiltord but it didn't give him enough width, then he tried Trezeguet up front with Henry, then he replaced Wiltord with the hard running Ribery, from there it all got better.

Ribery defended from the front, allowing less defensive work for Zidane and Viera and Makelele arced the central defence. He got the balance right and his tactics payed off (until the final).

I was getting at the fact that the big names in the French team put pressure on Domenech to ditch the 4-5-1 and recall Trezeguet, he didn't listen to them.

[mhead]

And relating this to Cricket or Rugby...who is now saying that our World Cup/Ashes success was just a lucky flash in the pan and we are just as semi-hopeless as we have been for 20 years?

Virtually no-one cos we have taken over from the Scots of Ali's Army as the totally over-optimistic fans...in fact we are world champions!

And then as Rovers supporters we veer the other way - have you seen those first 4 fixtures - when will we get any points?

[neekoy]

What language are you speaking?

[M-K]

I wish Owen had been honest enough to say that maybe Lampard, Gerrard, Terry and -- most of all -- Michael Owen aren't anywhere near as good as they're made out to be. I could have some respect for the spineless little sod if he could admit in public that he's a player in irreversible decline, and point the finger at some of his underperforming mates rather than aim cheap shots at the ex manager.

England went out because they're not very good at international football. They've never really been good at it. Since 1966, the one and only time England have beaten a higher ranked team in World Cup finals was thanks to a dodgy penalty against Argentina last time.

The only reason they qualify with any regularity is because they're seeded into easy qualifying groups.

[Ronin]

Virtually no-one cos we have taken over from the Scots of Ali's Army as the totally over-optimistic fans...in fact we are world champions!

I've always thought that you've taken that mantle years ago. But it's also the stand taken by the media and certain pundits too. But having 1966 rammed down our throats every major footy tourney doesn't help the matter IMO. Although, going by recent results and especially with the way the team as whole has played (World Cup 90 and Euro 96 being possible exceptions) it's not really justified.

Edited July 10, 2006 by Ronin

[Eddie]

I wish Owen had been honest enough to say that maybe Lampard, Gerrard, Terry and -- most of all -- Michael Owen aren't anywhere near as good as they're made out to be. I could have some respect for the spineless little sod if he could admit in public that he's a player in irreversible decline, and point the finger at some of his underperforming mates rather than aim cheap shots at the ex manager.

England went out because they're not very good at international football. They've never really been good at it. Since 1966, the one and only time England have beaten a higher ranked team in World Cup finals was thanks to a dodgy penalty against Argentina last time.

The only reason they qualify with any regularity is because they're seeded into easy qualifying groups.

They've most all admitted that none of them played as well as they can, you'll never see a player say he is in an irreversible decline, he may as well give up if he believes that to be the case when he is only 26.

[M-K]

They've most all admitted that none of them played as well as they can, you'll never see a player say he is in an irreversible decline, he may as well give up if he believes that to be the case when he is only 26.

Well, after this injury he probably has little chance of getting back to the level he was at a few years ago. Give it up, Owen -- your natural home is with the BBC's team of pundits.

[Eddie]

Well, after this injury he probably has little chance of getting back to the level he was at a few years ago. Give it up, Owen -- your natural home is with the BBC's team of pundits.

I think Owen would shove his goal record in your face and question exactly who you are to say that, quite rightly so. He has never been a failure. He has been success in every competition at every level he has ever played and his ability to score goals is just about second to none in the modern era, I'll wait and see how he plays once he is back from injury before I decide he is finished, as should everyone. Given his age and the great work of modern medicine there is no reason why this should stop him.

[joey_big_nose]

I wish Owen had been honest enough to say that maybe Lampard, Gerrard, Terry and -- most of all -- Michael Owen aren't anywhere near as good as they're made out to be.

Thye are all, with the exception of the somewhat limited Owen,# extremely good players, what's your point? Lampard, Terry and Gerrard have all had outstanding seasons. All three of those players would be taken on by just about any club in the world.

Just because we got knocked out in the QF is no reason to become such an irrational baby about it. Clearly we have enough raw playing talent at the moment to make a serious dent in the WC but other areas were not quite up to scratch. It is up to McClaren to sort that out for 2008.

[thenodrog]

I read today that a number of the England squad are releasing books soon (Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard and others). I suspect we'll find out the real feeling of the players, or at least get a general idea, once all these are out.

I doubt those 3 could write a paragraph between them. Some ghost writer will sensationalise everything to try and boost sales. Reading anything written by the players will represent an awful waste of time and money. You have a good understanding of football Scotty, surely you don't need to read tripe to formulate an accurate opinion.

btw I was reading Mondays press last week on my hols a day after we were knocked out and Henry Winter (I think) was like all the others and queuing up to twist the knife in Ericcson (deservedly but 4 years belatedly) and one of the points that he made which I find unbelievable was that SGE allowed Beckham to stay on occasions in a different hotel to the rest of the squad! Presumably this was at his wife's behest but imo any half decent manager would have knocked that on the head pdq by not even picking the pussywhipped git for the bench!

Hindsight especially by the players is pathetic but it does appear that the entire management of Ericcson is turning out to be one classic exercise in demotivation..... and I suspect that the next one will be even worse.

[jim mk2]

I doubt those 3 could write a paragraph between them. Some ghost writer will sensationalise everything to try and boost sales. .

Unlikely. Most football books "written" by current players are suitable only as bedtime reading for insomniacs. Why should they bite the hands that feed them ?

[RevidgeBlue]

Unlikely. Most football books "written" by current players are suitable only as bedtime reading for insomniacs. Why should they bite the hands that feed them ?

Yeah but the difference this time is none of the England squad are particularly likely to ever be managed by the 25m fraudster again.

I would expect some home truths to emerge, although probably nothing too different to what we've all been saying all along.

[jim mk2]

Yeah but the difference this time is none of the England squad are particularly likely to ever be managed by the 25m fraudster again.

I would expect some home truths to emerge, although probably nothing too different to what we've all been saying all along.

I wouldn't hold your breath. Gerrard is a possible future England captain so will not want to upset the FA, ditto Lampard who will be keen to retain his England place while Rooney is unlikely to court controversy in a book at this early stage of his career.

The only player who might have "lifted the lid" is Beckham, but he was very much an Eriksson man.

Far more likely is that stories similar to Owen's (extremely mild) criticism will emerge via the press over the next few weeks/months.

[Flopsy]

the players are getting away with the performances whilst Sven's the scapegoat - it cant be Svens sole fault that the midfield forgot how to pass and shoot - we should have won against Portugal and stuffed Sweden / Ecuador and Trinidad due to Lamparad especially not being able to hit a barn if he was inside it. I mean come on - it cant be sven's fault that one of the best attacking footballers in the country becomes utter pooh

[thenodrog]

I mean come on - it cant be sven's fault that one of the best attacking footballers in the country becomes utter pooh

Think it through further Flopsy and you must arrive at the conclusion that it wasn't Svens fault that Lampard was playing badly but that it was totally Sven's fault that he continued to play someone so obviously out of form. SGE will be remembered as a weak manager.

Anyway how do you think it makes the guys on the bench feel? To be not entrusted to take the place of a player so completely and obviously out of form can only be a huge de-motivator.

[Fife Rover]

Owen sticks the boot in and the rest are to follow. No surprise there then. A new Premier League season is around the corner and these overpaid primadonnas want us all to forget their woeful England form and make us think that they play like heroes all the time.

The players are in a difficult situation; if they don't like the manager and come out and say so, what chance do they then have of playing? What would the press have said if England's senior players had no confidence before the trophy? Football is a culture of "yes" men, you back the person in charge until they get the hoof then you get your revenge. It's all well and good us lot posting that players should have said it earlier but their international chances would have been in jeopardy. We had plenty of "yes" men when our old bosses were in charge: Hodgson, Kidd, Souness all had the backing of players and the board, until they were offed.

The longer it goes on, and especially now that the World Cup is over it gets easier to see what happened without the emotion of losing. England were not good enough; fitness levels were sub par, tactics were way off, the manager could not motivate, players underperformed, and we couldn't score penalties as usual.

To which all I can say is: Thank God he failed to show up for the Rovers Manager job he was supposed to be taking after Ray Harford's departure!