[Archived] So Just Where Are All The Ex-rovers?

[philipl]

Young people develop physically at different rates. What is lost sight of is in many ways the development/growth process continues to around 21 even though height gain stops earlier.

The fact somebody was wow at 17/18 is sadly meaningless. What is increasingly happening is that players are breaking through later as their muscle memory training, techniques and above all strength and stamina necessary at Prem level are finally being attained in the early 20s.

Even absolutely exceptional teenage talents like Walcott are being nursed into Premiership football.

Putting it into perspective, Brett Emerton is commonly accepted to be the fittest (in sporting terms) Australian athlete in the world today. Given that Australia is so sports mad and has so many naturally gifted sports people across so many sports I find this an astonishing fact.

Yet on the park playing for Rovers he is definitely not a stand out specimen for physical ability or prowess. They are all within fractions of a per cent of each other.

Drop down to Academy level and you are talking of very very good footballers but they could well be 10% or 20% short of what is needed at Premiership level.

Quite apart from whether they have the brain and aptitude to make the leap, they might physically not be blessed with enough base material to be developed into a Premiership footballer.

I think this is the case for Donnelly and any number of other highly promising youngsters who slump off the radar when the adult game is being played.

Finally, yes there is subjectivity involved in selecting players and I think there are problems around Gary Bowyer at the Rovers Academy although I have no first hand knowledge. But, the Rovers will not be spending £2m+ per year at the Academy without having those youngsters highly scientifically monitored from health, fitness, diet through to Prozone and everything else. Those scientifically derived statistics are probably blocking the advance off youngsters into the Prem first 16 at Rovers as much as at any other club because the kids simply don't come within an acceptable per centage of the senior pros in terms of giving them a go at the top level.

[disgruntled]

I came across a recording of an England schoolboy match v Scotland schoolboy game the other day. God knows why I had it recorded, it was on the end of something else, but I suspect it was from about 4 years ago.

Out of the England under 16 team, none of the players in that team rang any bells with me, on the Scotland side there was Bryan Hodge who captained the side, he is with Rovers and currently on loan at Millwall for his second month.

So do you blame clubs, the national game or just the fact that some players never make it at all?

Keith Treacy, Martin Olsson, Eddie Nolan and Tony Kane have all been on the cusp of making the first team squad this past year, and when Rovers' reserves beat Newcastle 4-2 last week, two of the Rovers players were just aged 16. Surely that is a good sign?

Instead of looking at the negative all the time, why not focus on the positive for once?

Edited December 8, 2007 by disgruntled

[Sandiway Blue]

I think it is harsh to blame coaches at Rovers for a lack of success.I remember watching John Curtis years ago play for England schoolboys at centre half and he stood out by a long mile,head and shoulders above anybody else on the pitch,i thought blooming eck united have a heck of a player there,yet it never turned out that way.Considering he had the same coaches as the likes of Beckham Giggs etc, maybe the reason for Curtis not developing into a top class defender was down to the player himself which i suspect happens a lot with players at that level.

Rovers academy might get recommended some great kids but for some reason they don`t develope into first team players.

Without sounding like i am about 95 yrd old,i suspect a lack of quality players is down to the fact you don`t see anywhere near as many kids playing football on the streets,as i did when i was a kid myself.

Unfortunately football is the victim of the xbox generation.

Edited December 8, 2007 by bacup blue

[rover6]

What would you like TB to do about a player that isn't and never was good enough to play league football, Rover6?

When he initially went out on loan to Blackpool, their fans rated him as a better prospect than Danns and Douglas - who also had meaningful stints there. Donnelly had talent on a par, at least, with Douglas/Danns. Whether it was Prem/Champ quality is a different matter. Somewhere it went wrong. It could've been a personal thing and nothing anyone did could've stopped it. I accept that.

However, the academies in England are not producing enough players and all avenues of investigation have to be considered in trying to solve the problem.

I would like Trevor Brooking (as he will be very interested to know, of course...) to investigate objectively and thoroughly whether the restrictions placed upon youngsters, in terms of first team opportunities, at football clubs is contributing to the paucity of talent coming through at many clubs.

The step up from reserve level to first team level is Massive. Don't underestimate how big a leap it is.

I'd actually challenge that, Den, as ludicrous as it sounds. If you look at the way that the unexceptional Matt Derbyshire has contributed to the first team, the way Jay McEveley (worse than unexceptional, more plain mediocre) made a useful, if at times erroneous, contribution - you can see that players going straight from reserve level to first team have not been totally out of their depth. Jon Douglas did a job too.

Yes - the gap between Roque Santa Cruz and Raffaelle De Vita is humungous. Nolan - Nelsen, likewise, massive.

However, us critics of the recalcitrant attitude towards youth players in English football repeatedly point at the fringe element in Prem squads - the Enckelman, Rigters, Berner, Henchoz and so on and question whether these players are so superior to the players graduating from the academies. And in the past Jeffers, Nils Eric Johansson, Nonda. It is a risk playing a youngster, of course, because most probably he'll be more nervous than someone with games under his belt. But if you can give him the playing time to overcome those fears and can fully express himself then that risk diminishes. The problem is when can you give them meaningful games if you are held in constant terror that they will botch up.

And finally - on Treacy. If Gamst is playing something horrible. If Bentley is needed on the right and Dunn struggling to make an impression as a left midfielder - is it not fair, sensible and meritocratic to give a chance to an in-form left winger from the reserves who is by no means the finished article but looking an exciting prospect.

Edited December 8, 2007 by rover6

[den]

When he initially went out on loan to Blackpool, their fans rated him as a better prospect than Danns and Douglas - who also had meaningful stints there.

Well their fans were wrong, whereas several managers were right about him. You have to realise that the best people to judge a young player aren't the fans - you or me, Rover6, it is the managers/coaches who work with the players day in, day out. They see the weaknesses, they see the reasons why certain players wont make it in the tough world of pro football.

I'd actually challenge that, Den, as ludicrous as it sounds. If you look at the way that the unexceptional Matt Derbyshire has contributed to the first team, the way Jay McEveley (worse than unexceptional, more plain mediocre) made a useful, if at times erroneous, contribution - you can see that players going straight from reserve level to first team have not been totally out of their depth. Jon Douglas did a job too.

We were discussing Treacy and you judging him as ready for the first team because of his form in the reserves and the Republic under 21s. I didn't say that no-one makes it from the reserves Rover6. I said it was a huge gap between the reserve league and the [in our case] Prem. and it is - massive, especially nowadays, when reserve sides are mainly made up of youths. So while performing well in reserve team football is essential in most cases [barring the odd George Best who was obviously head and shoulders above anyone at a comparable age], it is by no means a guage of first team readiness. I've seen many rovers youngsters playing for two or three seasons and performing well in the pontins/central league, but never making even a single first team appearance, then disappearing completely. Now your argument is that if they had been given a chance, they might have made it. Well, they might. The fact that very, very few youngsters make it back at a high level [which is rovers and the prem, in our case], suggests that the vast majority wouldn't.

[Grabbi Graeme]

Is Grabbi still about in the Italian Leagues?

Can't seem to find him anywhere

[Exiled in Toronto]

The fact that very, very few youngsters make it back at a high level [which is rovers and the prem, in our case], suggests that the vast majority wouldn't.

So why have an Academy then?

The thing that gets me is that we have been told for ages that we have the best academy facilities bar none, yet teams like Villa and City (both above us in the league as I type this) have been bringing players through from theirs, into the first team, and successfully so. It clearly can be done, and more often than one player every five years, which is what we seem to be averaging.

While I don't agree with everything Rover6 says, he is absolutely correct in the fact that Derbyshire would not have had a sniff of a run in the team but for an unlikely set of injuries. Without that, any demands for Derbyshire to play would have been met with the same ridicule he gets over his calls for Treacy etc. for whom two minutes at the end of a Carling Cup game was hardly a baptism of fire.

[Cocker]

David Thompson is on goals on sunday. They asked him "where was your favorite time" He said Blackburn and they were shocked. Think it was stelling that said "not liverpool" and he said no Blackburn. So stelling didnt really talk about that they just turned it round by saying "well you played with some good players at liverpool didnt you" And so they started talking about Liverpool......gits

[herbergeehh]

Considering he had the same coaches as the likes of Beckham Giggs etc, maybe the reason for Curtis not developing into a top class defender was down to the player himself which i suspect happens a lot with players at that level.

Jay is telling his story (again)

He must be really upset about his behaviour earlier, too bad he didn't understand that at the time, we might've had a home grown first-class defender on our hands.

Edited December 9, 2007 by herbergeehh

[rebelmswar]

Seems Taylor is on his way out of Birmingham

http://www.sportbox.tv/football/news/story.php?id=256969

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/0200sp...-name_page.html

[matt65]

im sure i heard that john curtis has been released by QPR.

[rebelmswar]

im sure i heard that john curtis has been released by QPR.

Here would be the links

http://www.qpr.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=92962

http://www.clubcall.com/index.jsp?storyID=330315

Edited December 14, 2007 by rebelmswar

[RevidgeBlue]

Seems Taylor is on his way out of Birmingham

http://www.sportbox.tv/football/news/story.php?id=256969

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/0200sp...-name_page.html

Shame that.

John Williams mentioned at a Fans Forum a few years back that he played 28 games in the season we finished sixth under Souness. So he must have had some qualities.

Never recovered from subsequently playing with Amouseless imo.

(Opens Hornets nest)

Would be better cover for Nelsen and Samba than Ooijer , Zurab and Henchoz?

[rebelmswar]

Shame that.

John Williams mentioned at a Fans Forum a few years back that he played 28 games in the season we finished sixth under Souness. So he must have had some qualities.

Never recovered from subsequently playing with Amouseless imo.

(Opens Hornets nest)

Would be better cover for Nelsen and Samba than Ooijer , Zurab and Henchoz?

I always liked the boy myself, had a cool enough head on his shoulders in defense. He might be worth picking up on a free but then again wages would be required elsewhere.

[Nate]

Jay is telling his story (again)

He must be really upset about his behaviour earlier, too bad he didn't understand that at the time, we might've had a home grown first-class defender on our hands.

Interesting. Funny how some players don't realise what they have got until they're in that situation, or have lost it all. I still remember that stellar game against United he had.

[Mc Love]

Thought taylor was quality!!

[Darth Paul]

Never rated Taylor, lacked courage for a centre half and poor in the air for a big man. Better than Henchoz maybe but not in the same Class as ooijer or Zurab, not in a million years.

[LeftWinger]

Never rated Taylor, lacked courage for a centre half and poor in the air for a big man. Better than Henchoz maybe but not in the same Class as ooijer or Zurab, not in a million years.

Taylor should have been brilliant. He's was touted as a future England centre-half, that BBC article from years ago had him the England team to win Euro 2008 along with Dunn. Tall and very fast, good on the ball - but he was poor in the air for someone of his size, and lacked that killer instinct to make him a good centre half. Average at best unfortunately.

[arealbrfcfan]

I got a random thought while reading this post. What is Tim Flowers doing now? He was goalkeeping coach at City wasnt he? is he still there? what a class act he was.

[LeftWinger]

I got a random thought while reading this post. What is Tim Flowers doing now? He was goalkeeping coach at City wasnt he? is he still there? what a class act he was.

Assistant manager at Coventry City - so he'll be back at Ewood soon - maybe as caretaker manager if Dowie quits due to administration?

[rebelmswar]

Assistant manager at Coventry City - so he'll be back at Ewood soon - maybe as caretaker manager if Dowie quits due to administration?

I think he would be superb in the Goalkeeping coaching staff.

[rebelmswar]

Nice to see Jay McEveley score his first goal for Derby today.

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

Then gift Liverpool a last minute winner

[Wolves_Rover]

Then gift Liverpool a last minute winner

on the plus side, he didn't break anyones legs today.

[92er]

Then gift Liverpool a last minute winner

He seems to like doing that-he certainly did it whilst with us.