[Archived] Killing Us!

[Scotty]

Lot of irrationality about it all isn't there Bellamy? Ever noticed the ease at which we all convert from supporting GB at the Olympics to England in the commonwealth games? It really is all in the mind.

But football is completely irrational. It's totally irrational to pay good money to watch 22 blokes kick a bit of leather around for 90 minutes. Totally irrational. Yet millions do it because it's a passionate, tribal game that allows fans a form of escapism for a while. Rationality doesn't come into it. It's totally irrational to support Blackburn Rovers when there are more successful clubs available who have better players and play better football. But we still do it.

And what has supporting GB at the Olympics and England at the Commenwealth Games (or the Ryder Cup) got to do with it? We do that because they are the team that represent us in those particular competitions. I'm sure that if Blackburn had an exclusive Olympic team we'd all support them ahead of GB, but they haven't.

Your arguments for "Lancashire United" seem to centre on business principles (I'm guessing a bit here as you've never really made a proper argument for it), business principles that will supposedly allow the new club to compete with the best clubs in the land. This will be achieved by merging two (or more) clubs, pooling the collective resources and fanbases of those clubs together, thus making a bigger and successful club - much like merging two companies together. But that argument is hugely flawed because football doesn't operate on business principles. As Bellamy11 points out, it's the fact that football is becoming more and more commercial that is turning fans off the game at the moment.

If you take away the fan's emotional attachments from football, the local passion, the tribal rivilaries, the community spirit, the traditions, then what are you left with? You're left with a past-time, just another leisure activity competing against all the other leisure activities that are available today. You take away what makes football special. The fans of the merged club wouldn't feel that same emotional intensity that they currently do for their own clubs. Everything that makes football special would be torn away, and it would become just another sport. Without that emotional intensity most fans wouldn't bother going. They would start to think rationally, start asking themselves why they are paying all this money for something that doesn't excite them. Many are already doing it, "Lancashire United" would just increase the trend. So, rather than incresing the fanbase, the new club would dramatically decrease it.

Of course, you could argue that, given time, the new club would start to gain the same traditions and community spirit that Rovers currently has. However, time is exactly what you don't think we have. The reason you came up with the idea of "Lancashire United" in the first place is because you're worried that Blackburn Rovers no longer have the resources to be able to compete with the bigger clubs, and will start to tumble down the leagues as a consequence. Yet by forming this new club, I believe it would have to operate initially with less resources - much less. Thus surely accelerating the decline you seem so fearful about.

There are a million and one reasons why "Lancashire United" wouldn't work, the points above cover just one aspect of the whole argument against it. There are many practical, financial, and legal arguments against it as well. These have all been raised before. Yet you never respond with an argument backing up your proposal. You never outline specifically why I, and others, are wrong to object. All you ever do is quote phrases like the need to "think big" and then demand what our ideas are. But you continue to claim that you have the answer to our falling attendances, that "Lancashire United" will solve our problems. Well, I'll ask again, how will it?

[Scotty]

Ever wondered what became of the people who supported Blackburn Olympic? Did they adapt to supporting BRFC or did they simply end up waiting to die all bitter and twisted? Check it out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Olympic_F.C.

Note the reference to John Lewis.

There's a two page article in the latest edition of When Saturday Comes about Blackburn Olympic. Olympic were the local working man's team, rooted in the factories and mills, whereas Rovers were formed by grammer school old boys. The article states how Olympic used to be the most successful Blackburn team, and eventually the most successful team in the country, by being hugely innovative.

They introduced new standards of fitness, preparation, and tactics to the game and, for a short while, regularly defeated the old public school clubs. However, the other clubs had more money and started to poach Olympics players, and they soon cottoned on to the new levels of professionalism. Olympic couldn't cope, got into debt, and eventually went out of business.

It's an interesting story, but not really relevant to this debate. They weren't merged with Rovers, they competed alongside them until they couldn't any more.

[American]

And what has supporting GB at the Olympics and England at the Commenwealth Games (or the Ryder Cup) got to do with it? We do that because they are the team that represent us in those particular competitions. I'm sure that if Blackburn had an exclusive Olympic team we'd all support them ahead of GB, but they haven't.

It has everything to do with it. If Blackburn didn't have Rovers, Lancashire United would be the team that would represent the town. Much like it's been easy to adjust to following Europe at the Ryder Cup after they expanded the team from Great Britain to Europe, fans would be able to adjust to Lancashire United. I agree with Joey that there would be short-term pain, but in the long run Lancashire United would become a bigger force.

I'm not advocating this as the solution, there are a LOT of other things that could/should be done first, but it can't just be dismissed out of hand.

[Scotty]

It has everything to do with it. If Blackburn didn't have Rovers, Lancashire United would be the team that would represent the town. Much like it's been easy to adjust to following Europe at the Ryder Cup after they expanded the team from Great Britain to Europe, fans would be able to adjust to Lancashire United. I agree with Joey that there would be short-term pain, but in the long run Lancashire United would become a bigger force.

I'm not advocating this as the solution, there are a LOT of other things that could/should be done first, but it can't just be dismissed out of hand.

But that argument again completely disregards the emotional attachment that most fans have with their football team. Most don't have that same attachment with a GB or Ryder Cup team. Sure they want to see them win (I was as happy as anyone that Europe won the Ryder Cup), but it's the nature and rarity of the event that stirs the emotion. If the Ryder Cup was played every week I'm sure most people wouldn't give a toss about it.

And it doesn't follow that people would automatically support Lancashire United if Rovers ceased to exist. Personally, I'd be prepared to help form a new Blackburn Rovers club, like the fans at FC United and AFC Wimbledon have. Failing that, I'd probably find a smaller local team to support instead. I suspect a lot would do the same.

It can be dismissed out of hand. I've done it, and most other fans would as well.

Edited September 25, 2006 by Scotty

[American]

A lot probably would do what you do, but the majority - the casual fans - would eventually make LU a force. If you take the FC United example, Man United isn't suffering too much - record crowds this season prove that out.

I still think it will never come to that. The big clubs will bugger off to the European Super League making the Premier League smarter run.

[bellamy11]

That wasn't my point though, Charlie. My point was I find it easy enough to support the team that represents me in whatever event. If the Ryder Cup was contested between England and Spain then I'd support England. It's only the tribal "my team vs your team" but it's how I generally tend to involve myself in any sport I want to watch. If I wanted to get into (god forbid) American Football, I'd more than likely just pick a team at random and support them from then onwards in a very passive and casual way.

Football is different for me. Having attended so many matches, and spent thousands of pounds on Rovers (and small fry compared to the experience and expenditure of the older fans) I couldn't just abandon that and go for the ready-made and plastic alternative.

Some fans, especially younger ones, would come around to supporting the county in time. But as has been said, it would be the business aspect of attracting the casuals rather than helping the fans of Blackburn Rovers Football Club. I'd wager you'd do more to turn them off football altogether rather than provide them with a lovable self-sustaining club. And that's entirely the opposite of what we're trying to do for ourselves, isn't it?

[Jan]

The Ryder Cup was Europe, not England.

[bellamy11]

The Ryder Cup was Europe, not England.

Yes. Read my post.

[thenodrog]

Nice to see that proper debate is replacing out of hand criticism. I thank you.

As for the interesting parrallel between expanding the GB and Ireland Ryder cup team team to Europe in order to compete with the US (who were perrenial winners until 16 years or so ago) and incorporating more than one neighbouring football team to 'Team Lancashire', try comparing Abbey's posts. He downright dismisses Team Lancs but is absolutely delighted that Team Europe through amalgamation are the new Golf giants.

btw Scotty I don't think that I was responsible for proposing the name Lancs Utd. But it certainly does serve the purpose at thsi stage. As for the general acceptance that change over would be slow at first with the kids being the first to accept the new concept, please rem that I did say it would need the financial and charismatic qualities of a Jack Walker.

Edited September 25, 2006 by thenodrog

[RevidgeBlue]

As for the general acceptance that change over would be slow at first with the kids being the first to accept the new concept, please rem that I did say it would need the financial and charismatic qualities of a Jack Walker.

Don't understand the point of this debate at all Gordon.

If a new generation of kids could theoretically be persuaded to follow Lancashire United - why couldn't they be persuaded to follow Blackburn Rovers in the Premiership? What's the difference, apart from the fact we would be in a much stronger position - being there already?

Why would Blackburn Rovers be any less successful theoretically IF we had the financial support and charisma of "a new Jack Walker " leading the charge?. (Something we're lacking at the moment admittedly.)

Still 6th isn't too shabby, thanks to the skills of Mark Hughes and his coachng staff.

[DP]

if the professional league was abolished, and replaced with a counties league (like in cricket) then Lancashire would be as well supported as any other team. But this isn't going to happen.

As long as Blackburn, Blackpool, Burnley, Preston, Leeds, Crewe (thought I'd mention them, small crowd, decent club) keep their teams they will have supporters.... enough supporters, to keep their clubs afloat. And in this environment a Lancashire or Yorkshire Utd would dwell in the lower leagues on the verge of bankruptcy year in, year out.

We're talking about football clubs with over 125 years of tradition, so it would take a very brave (and very foolish) conglomerate of businesses to invest in something with a relatively small return, over an extremely long period of time (25 years at least I reckon)

[thenodrog]

Don't understand the point of this debate at all Gordon.

If a new generation of kids could theoretically be persuaded to follow Lancashire United - why couldn't they be persuaded to follow Blackburn Rovers in the Premiership?

Go to Burnley / Colne / Preston / Chorley / Blackpool and Kirkham and ask the kids there Simon.

[AggyBlue]

Go to Burnley / Colne / Preston / Chorley / Blackpool and Kirkham and ask the kids there Simon.

There are plenty of kids who follow Rovers or are from families that follow Rovers in Chorley.

Not many go because they can't afford it, just like they wouldn't be able to afford to go to Lancashire United, unless they're only going to charge a tenner.

When I was a kid, I could afford the gate money and coach fare from Chorley out of my paper round money.

What chance have kids got these day's?

[stuwilky]

There are plenty of kids who follow Rovers or are from families that follow Rovers in Chorley.

Not many go because they can't afford it, just like they wouldn't be able to afford to go to Lancashire United, unless they're only going to charge a tenner.

When I was a kid, I could afford the gate money and coach fare from Chorley out of my paper round money.

What chance have kids got these day's?

Whats the going rate for a paper round these days?

Kids tickets average out at what £4.75 per match? few quid for a half fare on the bus from Chorley?

I was paid £7 per week for my paper round in 1992 so must be more than that these days?

[AggyBlue]

Kids tickets average out at what £4.75 per match?

You suggesting kids as young as thirteen take out direct debits? Is that legal?

Don't suggest parents do it and then collect the cash from the kids. Most parents will tell you they've been there and it doesn't work, the kids don't pay up or don't keep the job and leave you in the lurch.

[IAN57]

I think there is far too much doom and gloom going on here.

It's time to be a bit positive.

So, the attendance isn't great. Since getting the push I can't get there too often now. But I will a few times.

Reasons to be cheerful part 1.

We are THE most sucessful town team in the country.

All but 5 of the prem teams are sad little townies.

they are sad that although the have huge crowds, they never win anything.

Everton villa spurs would love our record.

This little town team qualified for europe.

gary linnaker chokes every time we win, cause he turned down a great ewood adventure.

the london press hate our guts and want us relegated.

These are things to be proud of.

Please do not expect to be loved by the media

Now all together now,

to the tune of lassie from lancashire,

We are Blackburn of Lancashire

Blackburn Rovers of Lancashire,

Just a small town in Lancashire

Blackburn Rovers of Lancashire

There is non fairer or rairer than Rovers

The pride of Lancashire

We are Blackburn of Lancashire

Blackburn Rovers of Lancashire

We're the town that won premier league

Thats one more than liverpool (could be changed to 'over there' with pointing gesture)

There is non fairer or rairer than Rovers

The pride of Lancashire.

Now, if those people who could, are so sad they don't want to be a part of history, so be it.

[RevidgeBlue]

Go to Burnley / Colne / Preston / Chorley / Blackpool and Kirkham and ask the kids there Simon.

OK, so same question in reverse, if you think kids in those areas wouldn't support Blackburn Rovers, (I'm talking about grabbing them from the cradle here) why would they support say Lancashire United?

[ABBEY]

Nice to see that proper debate is replacing out of hand criticism. I thank you.

As for the interesting parrallel between expanding the GB and Ireland Ryder cup team team to Europe in order to compete with the US (who were perrenial winners until 16 years or so ago) and incorporating more than one neighbouring football team to 'Team Lancashire', try comparing Abbey's posts. He downright dismisses Team Lancs but is absolutely delighted that Team Europe through amalgamation are the new Golf giants.

BUT IT DIDNT COMPARE HALF AS MUCH TO ROVERS WINNING THE LEAGUE OR THE CUP....I simply wouldnt even have one bit of passion towrds anything taking my rovers away and joining forces with burnleyor nobend.

the golf was fantastic,i will be shouting for us in the ashes ,i shout for wigan in the rugby,i shout for lancs in the cricket,i shout for ricky hatton,i shout for arizona diamondbacks......and i would sell my soul for the broncos and rovers ...but lancy utd ???id rather ask my ex to remarry me.

[Billinge End Blue]

Ian57

That's a darn fine anthem you've got there - would love to hear it sung loudly at Ewood!

Pride is what it all boils down to - having a team to be proud of, entwined with local pride. This LUFC stuff is just plain daft.

What I'd recommend, starting on Thursday evening, is for match ticket holders, drinking prematch in Blackburn pubs with TVs, to raucously chant "Oh if you're going to Ewood clap your hands" repeatedly.

For the shifty idlers with £15 of ale money burning a hole in their back pocket, waiting for the landlord to turn over to British Eurosport, a big " Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah" accompanied by appropriate hand gestures, should be proffered.

Shame 'em back to Ewood for future matches

[thenodrog]

OK, so same question in reverse, if you think kids in those areas wouldn't support Blackburn Rovers, (I'm talking about grabbing them from the cradle here) why would they support say Lancashire United?

Cos they are Lancastrians and there would be no PNE, BRFC, Clarets and Blackpool cos they would have combined. 4 Teams given 4 sides of the ground! Now that would create some atmosphere!

Edited September 26, 2006 by thenodrog

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Just give it up Theno as one of those bad ideas that appear now and again eh!

[AggyBlue]

Cos they are Lancastrians and there would be no PNE, BRFC, Clarets and Blackpool cos they would have combined. 4 Teams given 4 sides of the ground! Now that would create some atmosphere!

Certainly would Alas nothing to do with the game they were watching.

[Paul]

Whats the going rate for a paper round these days?

My lad gets £12, he's supposed to give me half each week to pay the DD into his savings account. Like Aggy says that is a struggle, I reckon 50% of the time I'm simply chucking £6 into his account without getting the cash!

[bob fleming]

Cos they are Lancastrians and there would be no PNE, BRFC, Clarets and Blackpool cos they would have combined. 4 Teams given 4 sides of the ground! Now that would create some atmosphere!

I see. So who is going to instigate this? Do you think Blackburn Rovers should?

Conference Call between John Williams and the other Chairmen…..

"We were wondering if you'd like to merge? No, no, I can understand you thinking that means with Blackburn Rovers, after all we are the most successful team and the only Premier League team in Lancashire, but no it's OK, we're quite prepared to create a new team with you and call it “Lancashire United”.

No, the games won't be at Ewood, no, they'll be somewhere else. I don’t know, near Blackpool? It’ll be a bit inconvenient but we still think we’ll get 50,000+ through the gates every week.

No, I haven’t been drinking. Our fan base? Well we don't really know if they'll be in favour, we haven't asked them or anything, I'm sure they will be though when they see we'll be challenging the likes of Manchester United.

What's that? Yes, that's right Rovers did do the double over them last season and yes we did beat Chelsea and we did qualify for Europe again and we are currently 10th meaning we’re one of the best ten teams in England. Look we know we're doing very well, a lot better than the rest of you, but we'd like to merge with you if you wouldn't mind. What's that? You don't think your fans will be in favour? History, heritage, a sense of belonging and pride in your town? Sorry you've lost me there."

[Driftpeasant]

All I know is I'm flying over to attend 3 games at Christmas, and I can get legal international broadcasts of Rovers games.

Heck, even if I can't make it, I'll buy tickets and kit to support the team.