New Games/General Gaming

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Amo said:

They put a black oversized sports bra under her top and covered up her legs with thigh-high leggings. 

In the remake, Avalanche's bomb is too weak to blow up the reactor, so Shinra secretly destroy it all to frame them. Not only does this whitewash Avalanche and rob the story of its moral ambiguity, it's a redundant plot twist because Shinra already do an inside job on the Sector 7 plate. 

Wow. That's actual bollox. FFS,why couldn't they just leave it as is. I'm nit sure which of the 2 things annoy me more. PC culture ruining a masterpiece 

Have they come out and said that's the only reason they have made these changes?

[Amo]

6 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Wow. That's actual bollox. FFS,why couldn't they just leave it as is. I'm nit sure which of the 2 things annoy me more. PC culture ruining a masterpiece 

Have they come out and said that's the only reason they have made these changes?

I don't think they've addressed it. Although they have said the Honeybee Inn will be changed for modern sensibilities. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

11 minutes ago, Amo said:

I don't think they've addressed it. Although they have said the Honeybee Inn will be changed for modern sensibilities. 

It's a fantasy video game, the clue is in the title, why do they need to change it for modern sensibilities? Modern sensibilities suck! 

[davulsukur]

3 hours ago, Amo said:

They put a black oversized sports bra under her top and covered up her legs with thigh-high leggings. 

In the remake, Avalanche's bomb is too weak to blow up the reactor, so Shinra secretly destroy it all to frame them. Not only does this whitewash Avalanche and rob the story of its moral ambiguity, it's a redundant plot twist because Shinra already do an inside job on the Sector 7 plate. 

Not really a necessary change to the story that is it?

I appreciate they reduced her breast size but I think the thigh high leggings make her look better/hotter! ?

[DE.]

4 hours ago, Amo said:

They put a black oversized sports bra under her top and covered up her legs with thigh-high leggings. 

In the remake, Avalanche's bomb is too weak to blow up the reactor, so Shinra secretly destroy it all to frame them. Not only does this whitewash Avalanche and rob the story of its moral ambiguity, it's a redundant plot twist because Shinra already do an inside job on the Sector 7 plate. 

Forget Han Shot First, now it's Avalanche Bombed First.

[davulsukur]

3 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

It's a fantasy video game, the clue is in the title, why do they need to change it for modern sensibilities? Modern sensibilities suck! 

From what I've read, they reduced her chest size as shes a fighter and they wanted her to have a more athletic body.

The same article also says they have an ethics department that looked into it, so ?‍♂️

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2019/6/19/18691773/square-enix-tifa-redesign-chest-final-fantasy-7-remake

[Bigdoggsteel]

4 minutes ago, davulsukur said:

From what I've read, they reduced her chest size as shes a fighter and they wanted her to have a more athletic body.

The same article also says they have an ethics department that looked into it, so ?‍♂️

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2019/6/19/18691773/square-enix-tifa-redesign-chest-final-fantasy-7-remake

She could fight fine in the first one. They did it so they would pre-empt a backlash. It's crazy really,like I'm not going to buy the game because of boobs, I don't purchase videogames  based on how much of a sexual kick I will get off them. I jest about this,but between that aspect and the initial bombing(an amazing part of the story) I am disappointed. The source material was perfect. Don't mess with it. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[Amo]

24 minutes ago, davulsukur said:

Not really a necessary change to the story that is it? 

It's a defining part of the game. Avalanche have to reconcile the collateral damage with the greater good of saving the planet. When Shinra destroys Sector 7, Barret wonders if it's karma for the innocent people they killed. 

That's all gone now. Big Bad Shinra are to blame for everything and Avalanche dindu nuffin. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

4 minutes ago, Amo said:

It's a defining part of the game. Avalanche have to reconcile the collateral damage with the greater good of saving the planet. When Shinra destroys Sector 7, Barret wonders if it's karma for the innocent people they killed. 

That's all gone now. Big Bad Shinra are to blame for everything and Avalanche dindu nuffin. 

Ya ,I liked the fact I planted the bomb fighting back against the enemy. It was a different start to a game. It was a magical game, now it's being sanitized 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Like Shinra are evil,they don't need to be portrayed as more evil. Although I know that's not the reason for the change 

[Bigdoggsteel]

I loved the way some of the public blamed you for sector 7 collapsing. Its natural. It felt real. Bah

[Amo]

5 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ya ,I liked the fact I planted the bomb fighting back against the enemy. It was a different start to a game. It was a magical game, now it's being sanitized 

I never wanted a remake in the first place and never understood people who did. What for? Updated visuals? I think the stylized graphics are one of the reason the game is timeless compared to something like FFVIII, which went for realism. It also allowed them to get away with a lot of the quirkiness that will be gutted in the remake.

 

[DE.]

22 minutes ago, Amo said:

It's a defining part of the game. Avalanche have to reconcile the collateral damage with the greater good of saving the planet. When Shinra destroys Sector 7, Barret wonders if it's karma for the innocent people they killed. 

That's all gone now. Big Bad Shinra are to blame for everything and Avalanche dindu nuffin. 

 

10 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Like Shinra are evil,they don't need to be portrayed as more evil. Although I know that's not the reason for the change 

Agreed. Shinra do enough to be considered the 'big evil' of the game without framing Avalanche in the beginning as well. I mean, the company is shown multiple times to be corrupt, self-serving and filled with sycophants and morally bankrupt employees at the highest levels willing to do whatever it takes to keep Shinra in power. There's very little remotely redemptive about them until Advent Children, but ultimately the remnants of Shinra are still self-serving despite suggestions they are trying to atone for what they did in the past. Everything Rufus and the Turks do in the movie is for their own benefit, including trying to recruit Cloud to help them erase Jenova's remnants. There's nothing in the original game or the movie to suggest anything has changed. 

Changing character appearances doesn't bother me that much. As long as they are still recognisable as the characters I saw in 1997 then fine, do whatever you need to do. In Tifa's case they're essentially bringing her game appearance in line with how she looks in Advent Children.

Altering the story on such a fundamental level is pretty terrible though. I mean, stuff like the Honeybee Inn is minor. Annoying if it's changed but understandable to some degree in the current climate. Changing Avalanche bombing the reactor is totally different and not acceptable at all to me. As you guys say it totally warps the perception of the story being told and lessens the growth of Cloud, Barret and Tifa especially.

When Biggs, Wedge and Jessie are dying under the plate before it is blown up they talk about it being karma for what they did when they bombed the reactor. It's a powerful moment even though you don't know them that well. Now that's gone. What will they say instead? Will they even be there or say anything at all? Why do the heroes have to be so fucking clean? Their existence and actions are the perfect reflections of the differences in perception between freedom fighters and terrorists. Taking that away cheapens the story massively.

They should have just updated the graphics and left the story alone. I want the same story, I want turn-based combat and I want all of the weird little nuances that made FFVII so memorable. I don't want a sterilised 2019/2020 version of the game which removes all of the quirks and leaves us with a modern, soulless Final Fantasy ala 13 and 15. 

All I can say is thank goodness they released the remaster before the remake, with no storyline alterations. If nothing else we'll have that and for me the original will always be the true story. Any changes done in the remake will be nothing more than reimagined fanfiction or an alternate universe story which has no bearing on the original.  

Edited January 17, 2020 by DE.

[Amo]

Thing is, Square are not the same company they were 20+ years ago. Most of the good people have left since then. Tetsuya Nomura was a character designer and ‘ideas man’ on the original FFVII. He's notorious for putting style over substance and incoherent writing *cough*Kingdom Hearts*cough* Now he’s directing the remake, mostly because he's one of the few left from the old team. 

[DE.]

11 minutes ago, Amo said:

Thing is, Square are not the same company they were 20+ years ago. Most of the good people have left since then. Tetsuya Nomura was a character designer and ‘ideas man’ on the original FFVII. He's notorious for putting style over substance and incoherent writing *cough*Kingdom Hearts*cough* Now he’s directing the remake, mostly because he's one of the few left from the old team. 

Yeah, you can tell comparing current Final Fantasies to the older ones that Square is a far cry creatively from the company they were back in the 90s and early 00s. I've tried to play KH on mutiple occasions and never gotten very far at all because it unfortunately bores me. I have all of the games including the newest one so I really do want to get into it, I just can't. 

In this instance though they don't have to be creative. The story is already there. Sure it has a few inconsistencies which require some minor tweaks but the core storyline doesn't need to be touched at all. It's universally accepted as being one of the best games in history and the story is a large part of the reason why. It's not something that needs to be changed in any major way. There are parts that can probably be left out or amended a little, but it's small things not hugely important plot points. 

I'm not sure how much things have changed since 2005 but even though Advent Children had a mixed reception I liked it just fine. I thought it stayed true to the spirit of the original game and the story largely made sense within the context of the universe created in the original game. I have nitpicks regarding certain aspects of the movie's plot but nothing that would cause me serious issues watching it.

The remake, though... I'm not sure I'm going to be able to accept the kind of changes I've heard about so far. At best I'll only be able to enjoy it as an alternate universe story inferior to the original. If they're going to neuter the Avalanche bombing at the beginning I dread to think what they'll do with the Barret/Dyne plot which was also very powerful and morally ambiguous. Cloud going crazy and attacking Aeris at the Temple of the Ancients will probably be left out entirely, and I can't imagine the remake is going to do a great job with that section of the game in general. The only part of the game I can see the remake improving on is the ending which appeared to be rushed and inconclusive. Otherwise I have a feeling the rest of it is going to come nowhere close to capturing the feel of the original. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by DE.

[DE.]

27 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I loved the way some of the public blamed you for sector 7 collapsing. Its natural. It felt real. Bah

It's an exact mirror of how these things play out in real life. There was never any issue with this part of the story that I've ever seen. As the player we aren't questioning Avalanche's motives or decisions when the mission is happening - but afterwards we're forced to question how their actions affected innocent people and decide for ourselves whether what they did was justified or not. The characters themselves have to process that as well and go through the same dilemma. The remake takes that all away by changing things - the player is spoon-fed a sympathy story and doesn't have to think about the actions of the heroes. They were framed, so we only have to feel sympathy for them. It's lazy and arguably insulting, treating the player like a child unable to deal with the harsh realities of the freedom fighter/terrorist duality. 

[DE.]

I also didn't realise gameplay of the demo has been released in full.

 

[Adam C]

On 15/01/2020 at 23:25, davulsukur said:

I was also in the Amstrsd CPC464 club. With green screen monitor to boot.

My uncle gave us a ZX spectrum, the one with the rubber keys and one of my brothers got hold of a Commadore 64 at some point. That took cartridges as well. I remember he got Terminator 2 and there was a level where you were Sarah Connor escaping the mental institution, basically just running forward and clubbing guards with a night stick.

 

On 15/01/2020 at 13:12, Bigdoggsteel said:

That's exactly what I meant, couldn't think of the name. Tape deck with a green screen, cutting edge stuff.  Never heard of the BBC micro. The other 2 are legendary at this stage. 

CPC 464 was my first experience of computing/gaming and I have so many fond memories of that primitive green screen. Although we eventually got a colour monitor which completely blew my mind at the time, I’ll still have fonder memories of the green screen. 

The experience of loading the tape, waiting 20 minutes for it to load, listening to the weird loading noises, the game crashing and having to be reloaded...

typing in

10 PRINT “Daniel smells”

20 GOTO 10

Some of the games were incredible. Rock star ate my hamster, a music management sim, was hilarious to my 7 year old self. Robocop had great graphics, spy Hunter was just like the arcade. Aliens was freaky and scary. Head over heels had cool isometric graphics, but Sorcery was my favourite game. It was like an early platform game where you had to fly from screen to screen rescuing wizards. 
 

Two other things stand out when I remember the 464. Games never looked anywhere near as good as the cover artwork for the tapes, and my brother used to put 10p pieces through the air vents on the monitor whenever a game crashed because he thought it was an arcade machine. 
 

Thanks for bringing it all back guys.

[davulsukur]

11 minutes ago, The Hypnotic said:

 

CPC 464 was my first experience of computing/gaming and I have so many fond memories of that primitive green screen. Although we eventually got a colour monitor which completely blew my mind at the time, I’ll still have fonder memories of the green screen. 

The experience of loading the tape, waiting 20 minutes for it to load, listening to the weird loading noises, the game crashing and having to be reloaded...

typing in

10 PRINT “Daniel smells”

20 GOTO 10

Some of the games were incredible. Rock star ate my hamster, a music management sim, was hilarious to my 7 year old self. Robocop had great graphics, spy Hunter was just like the arcade. Aliens was freaky and scary. Head over heels had cool isometric graphics, but Sorcery was my favourite game. It was like an early platform game where you had to fly from screen to screen rescuing wizards. 
 

Two other things stand out when I remember the 464. Games never looked anywhere near as good as the cover artwork for the tapes, and my brother used to put 10p pieces through the air vents on the monitor whenever a game crashed because he thought it was an arcade machine. 
 

Thanks for bringing it all back guys.

We also ended up with the amstrad in colour after the green screen.

Rock Star ate my hamster was class.

The hands down winner for me was Skool Daze, incredible game. Not sure if we ever actually figured out how to beat the game, something to do with hitting a load of shields on the wall with a catapult, with some shots having to Cannon off a teachers head in order to reach them.

[DE.]

20 minutes ago, DE. said:

I also didn't realise gameplay of the demo has been released in full.

 

Just watched this through skipping some of the gameplay parts and mixed feelings. The graphics are excellent, of course, and in a lot of ways the opening part stays true to the original down to the smaller details of Cloud having to help Jessie up twice as they escape. The reactor explosion at the end is also a great visual.

However, the change in story towards the end is really unfortunate. In the original game Shinra have nothing to do with what happens at the reactor, but now it's made obvious that whilst the Avalanche bomb does cause damage to the reactor it's Shinra who completely wreck it and cause it to explode, killing civilians on the top plate. Avalanche don't know this though, so assumedly they will still think they were the cause and go through the same moral dilemma about what they did and how it affected people. Problem is as the player we know they actually weren't responsible so it completely changes the viewer's perception of how the characters are portrayed, painting them in a sympathetic/tragic light as opposed to the moral ambiguity of the original. 

No sir, I don't like it. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by DE.

[Bigdoggsteel]

What are avalanche even doing in the reactor if not planting the bomb? 

[DE.]

4 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

What are avalanche even doing in the reactor if not planting the bomb? 

Avalanche are there to plant a bomb, but it's only designed to damage the reactor rather than destroy it. Their bomb goes off and causes the damage, then once they've left President Shinra and Heideggar (who somehow know about the mission) turn Shinra's security weaponry on the reactor, causing it to explode. Obviously Avalanche don't know this and I assume they'll think it was their fault, even though the player knows it wasn't. 

As Amo said, this plot change is completely redundant as the plate dropping on Sector 7 is done by Shinra for exactly the same purpose. The plate dropping will assumedly still happen as it's a huge part of the plot of the first part of the story, but from a storyline perspective it's now somewhat pointless except to double down on getting the public to blame Avalanche for their misery. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

God knows what else is changed so. Has it been confirmed that the game ends when you are meant to leave Midgar? The bike scene from the original 

[Bigdoggsteel]

17 hours ago, DE. said:

I also didn't realise gameplay of the demo has been released in full.

 

Have to say the combat looks like a grindy slog. Not for me 

[DE.]

14 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

God knows what else is changed so. Has it been confirmed that the game ends when you are meant to leave Midgar? The bike scene from the original 

I think all that's been 100% confirmed is that the first episode takes place entirely in Midgar. Logic suggests it'll finish after the gang break out of Shinra headquarters and are about to head to Kalm, but I guess it could be a bit before that. 

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Have to say the combat looks like a grindy slog. Not for me 

Yeah agreed, I've never been a fan of that kind of combat. Persona 5 showed that turn based combat can still work in modern games, and I really wish Square had taken inspiration from that rather than replicate the blandness of the FF15 combat system.