[Archived] Academy?

[FourLaneBlue]

It's difficult to deny some of the arguments against the academy system at Ewood though. It's certainly not performing as it was hoped it would. If you were JW and were responsible for funding of all parts of the club, how could you justify to the trustees, the amount of cash being pumped into the academy? It wouldn't be easy.

Do the trust actually care? I'm not sure if they look that closely into how the club is run but leave it up to the management. Does anyone know? Anyone seen some swiped minutes from one of their meetings???

If they did then they should be asking questions about why other Academies are producing while Rovers hasn't for some years. Jack Walker put a lot of money into this club to have it competing at the top level. It seems for all the money that has been thrown at it that the Rovers Academy is not doing this. What changes could benefit? New ideas and new people are often the best way forward.

Edited December 7, 2006 by FourLaneBlue

[speeeeeeedie]

Scrapping the Academy won't do BRFC any good. The club tries it's best to get the best players and make them into 1st teamers. Phillip is right; 95% (probably higher actually) of young footballers do not make it so how do you judge success? I've never met Bobby Downes, so I have no idea what he is like. I do know that football, especially youth set ups, are full of yes men and the 'right' faces.

We've had a pipleine to Ireland since the early Dalglish days. Gary Talon was the first then more and more started coming over. Has one other than Duff made it yet?

[LeChuck]

We've had a pipleine to Ireland since the early Dalglish days. Gary Talon was the first then more and more started coming over. Has one other than Duff made it yet?

I don't know whether Shay Given would count or not given the time he came through the ranks. Equally, I'm not sure if Douglas qualifies as it's arguable whether he has 'made it'. Keith Treacy appears to be the brightest hope of the next one.

[cn174]

One of the problems as far as our academy goes is where Rovers are and the rules. Around us we've got the Liverpool, Everton, Man U, Man City and Crewe academies. All of which we are competing with, and arguably lower down in the choosing order than all of them. I can't think of any English player who turned down one of these teams to come to Rovers. For example McEveley wasn't offered a contract at Everton, then he came to Rovers. Had He been offered an Everton contract it is very doubtful he'd have not signed it to come to Rovers.

In the North East Boro are really the only team with a decent academy. I know its a few years since we went up there with danny, but Newcastle played on a local park and had to go sweeping the glass up on the pitch before any one can play, whilst Sunderland played on some windy bog at the side of the sea. So with less teams to compete for good players, Boro are the first choice for players.

The other thing is academy rules. Below the age of 16, the player has to be within an hour and a half's drive of the academy - so had Beckham been 14 now he would not have been allowed to sign for Man U. This goes back to the first point, within this hour and a half's drive radius we're competing with the above players. Of course these rules are relaxed when people reach 16/17, but by then all the good english talent is elsewhere.

[den]

I don't know whether Shay Given would count or not given the time he came through the ranks. Equally, I'm not sure if Douglas qualifies as it's arguable whether he has 'made it'. Keith Treacy appears to be the brightest hope of the next one.

Shay Given came from Glasgow Celtic. He can't be considered as academy reared.

Shay Given profile.

[DanLad]

We spent a fortune setting the academy up and it's regarded as one of the most 'state of the art' academies in the world (or was a few years ago) It'd crazy to abandon it after the initial investment when a few mill (a couple of players wages?) will keep it ticking over. Anyway, don't the first team use all those facilities as well, now? If you scrap that you need new facilities for first team players and that will cost a pretty penny in itself.

I'd prefer to spend the money on kids coming through than signing on fees and agents fees for has beens who don't give a damn.

[broadsword]

The academy system is the better option; nice pitches, gym, food, kit, opposition, location. But if we don't have local players able to fill it we will have to eo elsewhere and gamble.

To echo something Mark Hughes referred to when he was interviewed for a broadsheet (talking about reserve/ academy training pitches).

Why should academy players be rewarded before they've even made it? Training at first-class facilities should be something they aspire to, not something they're given as of right.

I fear we've been left with a white elephant. But then if we didn't have an academy we couldn't compete with other clubs for young players. Which is the way of the world these days as local players coming up through the system are now a rarity. But then would we notice a difference as we're not bringing anyone through anyway.

For the players it's produced (I can't think of any notable academy graduates), the academy has been a rank failure and a sorry waste of money.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

I think people expect a little too much from the academy. The last few games have seen Peter, Gallagher and Derbyshire on the bench. Comparatively speaking, these players will be on low wages - and are filling places in our first team squad. If we had to buy Gallagher or Derbyshire from the clubs we loaned them to last year - how much do you think they would have asked for them - I think you are probably looking at them trying to fleece us for at least £2m for the pair of these high scoring players at lower league level (which is what they were). Straight away the Acadamy is paid for a year (especially when you consider their wages would probably be higher).

I think when considering the acadamies recent output - you have to consider the impact of two seasons in the Championship - and the impact that would have had on our ability to attract the best youngsters. Youngsters that would be in their early twenties now !

Rovers only chance of keeping Jacks dream alive is the academy - or free transfers like Kuqi bringing unexpected windfalls. If we look at the balance sheet - Duff paid for approximately 8 seasons of the academy - as well as the joy we all had in watching him play. I can't see the benefit of closing down because we got beat by Reading - these things go in cycles and it is likely that an overall poor youth team may produce that one gem that we all crave. After all - we only really need (and should expect) one or two youth team players a season to get to the fringes of the first team.

[bluebruce]

Some may be "big clubs" but they are also our rivals and I'd also suggest that Middlesbrough and West Ham are not that much bigger than us.

I know this is a touch off topic, but I just want to clear this up. Middlesborough are NOT a bigger club than us at all, nevermind 'much'. We outstrip them on pretty much every category except for recent average attendance, where they have a small advantage. And ok, they had one good UEFA cup run. Our trophy cabinet outstrips them substantially, as does our recent history, and our attendances used to be better than theirs. We also finished above them last season. Anyway, with that out of the way...

The original question was, "would the money required to run the academy [last time I spoke to JW it was around £2.5m/year], be better spent going into proven prem class players?

Indeed it was, and here's my answer to it. I'm repeating myself a little, but the main problem I perceive with our academy output is our will to blood players. We should be making overtures to lower league clubs to loan some of our more promising players out- we're finally loaning youngsters out to some degree, but I'm sure more could be done. In some cases this would reduce our wage bill very slightly, but far more importantly would give our youth players the competitive experience they need and let us see what they're about. Those that impress will likely earn loan moves to higher clubs, or even a shot in the first team (If we were more willing to try). Now, if nothing else, this should enable us to extract some fees from players that leave our youth setup. As it is, they all seem to vanish into mediocrity or retirement, having never shown any clubs what they can do. Players who have perhaps shown they can be handy in League One or Two (Like Derbyshire already did) are likely to be able to earn deals. It would also be wise to tag sell-on clauses onto these deals when possible. Although in most cases the fees for these kinds of transfers would be quite minimal (if indeed they were anything more than a sell-on), it would be something, and go part way to making the Academy more self-financing- which of course should be the goal of our whole club.

Now, to players who do have a chance of pushing for the first team. Frankly, we've been pretty disgraceful to our youth players in this respect in recent years. A few games of Premiership experience gives somebody a market value to lower league clubs. But of course it also gives them a chance to prove themselves (And I don't mean those pitiful 10 minute cameos they get- seasoned pros can't always deal with that so why should kids be able to?)- a chance we are always more than willing to give other players who have often fallen by the wayside. The most notable example this season is of course Sergio Peter. The kid is GOOD. Pedersen is playing god awful. He is supposedly 'injured' (I think I've said some of this stuff previously but hey). Whatever the case he definitely needs either a rest or a kick up the backside, and Peter could allow for both. Especially with our congested december schedule, I feel it's a must. Peter is only going to get dispirited if he keeps being turned down. And as I said before, more games= more resale value.

We should also invest in the best youth coach we can reasonably afford.

[FourLaneBlue]

For the players it's produced (I can't think of any notable academy graduates), the academy has been a rank failure and a sorry waste of money.

True...it's not been the success it was hoped for.

So who does the buck stop with?

Furthermore, what are they doing different to make it more of a success in the future than it is at the present?

I really do hope they don't have an attitude of "oh it isn't working immediately so get rid" like some fans would be happy to see.

Edited December 7, 2006 by FourLaneBlue

[Billy Castell]

Would new coaching staff help? I sort of agree with the view that kids can be spoilt with all the whizzy facilities, and not develop that fight to be the best and earn the right to train like a 1st team pro. I personally think they just just have fun until they're about 13, and then tactics and so on should be introduced.

[philipl]

Don't know about buck passing or buck stopping but Reading 5 Rovers 1 in the FA Youth Cup after we had taken the lead calls for some buck shot to be fired in the direction of someone's behind.

I don't know when the Academy became the Academy but for me the current project should be measured from the time Jack started seriously investing in that side of the club- around 1993.

These things tend to go in cycles and I can think of only one top flight club that regularly bloods one or more graduates from the youth set-up every season.

The exception is Arsenal and they are spending £8m+ a year on their Academy including youth transfer fees.

Back to Rovers and I would say the investment of some £25m+ in developing Youth since 1993 has been worthwhile- it is a ten year or so cycle over which these sorts of things have to be measured.

- £23m transfer fees for Duff and Dunn

- Lots of minor fees including in the past couple of years getting £1m sell on for Beattie, £300K sell on from Danns, £150K sell on from Bruce; there is probably more.

- direct transfers out such as Douglas.

- The huge boost seeing Duff and Dunn at their peak- our lads produced by our club.

- As has been pointed out already, even though Gally, Peter and Derbyshire are not setting any pulses racing, simply having them at the club probably saved us at least £2m on equivalent very much needed squad players and they are probably not paid as much as transfer ins would be costing.

So I'd say the Academy is comfortably washing its face even though the current crop gives serious grounds for concern.

[den]

Philipl, take away the Duff and Dunn fee, and start again. It's no use quoting players that didn't come through the academy. That goes some way to proving that good players will come through - without the academy.

The academy only came into being in 1998 according to a post from Speeedie Here.

It has been in existence for 8 years, so who has come through in that time?

[cn174]

1998 is right I do believe. However the 'academy' as we think of it - and i'm talking of the building with all its facilities - was 2000/01 I think. In the meantime they trained and played at qegs playing fields in the summer and trained inside the BRIC during the winter.

[AxesFirstTouch]

Whats happened to Cirian Donnelly? anyone know, I thought he was at blackpool but he hasnt played a game for ages...

edit: now at Southport after failing to cut the mustard at blackpool http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ort/6179568.stm

Edited December 7, 2006 by wakefieldrawks

[philipl]

But when was the Brockhall facility built?

I think the thing was given the Academy name in 1998 but substantially existed long before then.

I remember Jack stating the objective of building up the club's youth strength the moment he arrived at Rovers and he didn't hang around for seven years before doing anything.

[Alex Rover]

Whats happened to Cirian Donnelly? anyone know, I thought he was at blackpool but he hasnt played a game for ages...

Rover6 is your man to explain his "progess".

I remember Jack stating the objective of building up the club's youth strength the moment he arrived at Rovers and he didn't hang around for seven years before doing anything.

....."before doing anything", what do you mean by that Phil?

[cn174]

But when was the Brockhall facility built?

2000/01

[allan]

Virtually every other Prem club with an Academy is producing regular first team players. Clearly Rovers scouting network is failing.

[FourLaneBlue]

Virtually every other Prem club with an Academy is producing regular first team players.

If this is true then why are some people blaming the Academy system rather than suggesting Rovers get their act together? It seems to be not that Academies don't work but just that Rovers Academy isn't working!

That said Hughes can help by giving the (few) real prospects to have come through the Academy. Now is as good a time as any to give them a couple of starts and see what they can do. Peter for MGP so Pedersen can have a rest and why not give Derbyshire a few games as we need pace and Nonda is not cutting it? About time Hughes gave two players a rest instead of running them into the ground.

Maybe if those in the Academy saw that it is possible to progress eventually to the first team some might start working all the harder to impress!

[broadsword]

£23m transfer fees for Duff and Dunn

Looking at it another that is only TWO players, one of whom went for a transfer fee comfortably paid for by a Russian billionaire, the other one paid by bernard cribbins on drugs financed by bongo book money.

Neither Duff nor Dunn came through the academy system. This is what you are forgetting. We were lucky to get the money we did for those two players, and going on current trends we were lucky to actually get them.

Is the academy likely to produce players like Dunn and Duff in the next ten years? It doesn't look like it, does it?

God knows how many youth players we've realised, the numbers are mind-boggling.

[CAPT KAYOS]

Would new coaching staff help? I sort of agree with the view that kids can be spoilt with all the whizzy facilities, and not develop that fight to be the best and earn the right to train like a 1st team pro. I personally think they just just have fun until they're about 13, and then tactics and so on should be introduced.

Something I totally agree with and brought up in a topic previously except the tactics(come to that later).

Either Den or Rev mentioned the existence of natural talent - this which I feel everybody agrees with , needs to be evident to some degree but what also needs to be evident is an understanding and reading of what the game is actually about.

Not everybody needs the speed of Linford Christie or the Bulk of Arnold Schwarzenegger outright but they need the mental side 100% - it needs to be in the blood this can't be installed but it can be brought out and developed this by playing games.

Now TACTICS - I hate this word in the world of football - now it might be me but IMO there is only one tactic and that is to win the game. Too much emphasis to me is placed on this is the modern game which I think contributes to the problems with the game. ITS ALL ABOUT NOT GETTING BEAT rather than scoring GOALS.

Players need to be able to go out and enjoy the game, be able to express themselves and impact their own style/influence - something which is quite evidently subdued nowadays for the majority which leads back to the post from Billy.

Edited December 8, 2006 by CAPT KAYOS

[rover6]

If this is true then why are some people blaming the Academy system rather than suggesting Rovers get their act together? It seems to be not that Academies don't work but just that Rovers Academy isn't working!

That said Hughes can help by giving the (few) real prospects to have come through the Academy. Now is as good a time as any to give them a couple of starts and see what they can do. Peter for MGP so Pedersen can have a rest and why not give Derbyshire a few games as we need pace and Nonda is not cutting it? About time Hughes gave two players a rest instead of running them into the ground.

Maybe if those in the Academy saw that it is possible to progress eventually to the first team some might start working all the harder to impress!

FLB, that is my stance. I have no idea about the standard of coaching/management at the academy (but I do remember that a number of fans were pointing the finger at Bowyer's bungling of substitutions in the disappointing Youth Cup exit against Brighton last year) - however, the academy system is not in want of effort. We're even importing guys from Germany, France, Italy to Rovers. (although, admittedly, the French guys flopped and have now left and the only Italian is Raff De Vita).

Imo, if we are criticising the lack of academy graduates in the first team squad, we should be pointing the finger at the lack of opportunities. Why shouldn't guys like Peter, Derbyshire, Taylor get games if the first team regulars are failing? After all, they are our best youth players - so when will their chance come, bearing in mind Taylor is already 20.

Now, if we hadn't suffered the infamous left back injury crisis, prior to the MAn U Carling Cup tie, which propelled seventeen year old Jay McEveley into the first team - would he now, have a single first team start to his name? It's a hypothetical question, which a few will find distasteful, I know, but think about it?

If you consider that he previously hadn't been on the first team radar and I'm not even sure he was a reserve regular - I would say on the balance of probabilities, no, at this point in time, he would not have had a first team appearance. McEveley may have played consistently well (like Andy Taylor) for the reserves, gone out on loan and done quite well - but he'd still be waiting for his first team appearance - let alone start.

Therein lies the problem.

Edited December 8, 2006 by rover6

[rover_groo]

Duff didn't come through the academy, he was brought over from Ireland by KD, around the age of 15. I have yet to see any proof that the academy system works at any club. youngsters don't make prem players unless they have natural talent in the first place. Would Duggie, Clayton, England, Newton have been better players under an academy? - NO.

Aye that was after the incident when his agent Pat Devlin tried to pass Duffer of to Liverpool first of all.

Said he was too small and weren't convinced he could be anything near the potential of a Premiership player.

The Rovers Academy seem to target the Irish market alot these days and have alot of players at the moment from there.The likes of Keith Treacy,Conor Kavanagh,Alan Judge,Darragh Tuffy,Gavin Gunning,and Aaron Doran are just a few of the intakes for this past couple of years.Not to menton the liks of Kane and Nolan and that Fitzgerald bloke.The Staff at the academy have high hopes for Treacy and Judge but who can tell.

Other Irish players include:-

Damien Johnson (Birmingham City), Gary Hamilton (Glentoran), Eddie McCallion (Derry City), Garth Scates (Ballymena United), Hugh Davey (unattached and Aeronautical engineer).

All these lads have been very competent players for their own clubs, with Hamilton now looking to make a return to England after notching 16 goals in 18 games this season with Glentoran.

Back to Rovers and I would say the investment of some £25m+ in developing Youth since 1993 has been worthwhile- it is a ten year or so cycle over which these sorts of things have to be measured.

- £23m transfer fees for Duff and Dunn

- Lots of minor fees including in the past couple of years getting £1m sell on for Beattie, £300K sell on from Danns, £150K sell on from Bruce; there is probably more. 100k Damien Johnson

- direct transfers out such as Douglas.

- The huge boost seeing Duff and Dunn at their peak- our lads produced by our club.

- As has been pointed out already, even though Gally, Peter and Derbyshire are not setting any pulses racing, simply having them at the club probably saved us at least £2m on equivalent very much needed squad players and they are probably not paid as much as transfer ins would be costing.

So I'd say the Academy is comfortably washing its face even though the current crop gives serious grounds for concern.

Good call Philip.

Agree entirely, but still feel we need to try and breed another goalkeeper and defender out of the academy to be a valued member of Rovers senior squad. Only real notable players are Martin Taylor and Jay McEveley. How about bringing in a former reputable defender, such as, Colin Hendry and maybe Roy Tunk as a valued members of the coaching staff to aid the defensive players. Could prove worthwhile.

[speeeeeeedie]

But when was the Brockhall facility built?

Brockhall first opened to training in late 1994 during the magical championship season. The land was bought earlier with the pitches laid down very soon afterwards as Dalglish wanted to make sure they were top notch when they got there. At first everybody trained at the same site; pro's and youngters used the same facility. Now there are two locations at Brockhall, the pro's and the academy now train separately; something Hughes likes.

I do think that in order for the academy to improve we have to find local players. By local I mean East Lancs. If there are more kids playing football in the area we have a better chance of finding the next Dunn. Getting Liverpool, Manchester, and Euro cast off's wont do us much good. Unfortunately the youth team suffers from the same problems as does the 1st team; Mido didn't want to come to us; neither does the next Mido.