[Archived] Academy?

[FourLaneBlue]

Simple question, what percentage of strikers in the prem, come through past the age of 21? Anyone wish to guess?

Very well...I can't go through every player so I will have a look at the top ten Premiership scorers of all time. This is probably unfair to my point of view as these tend to be exceptional players and therefore likely to break through young I'd have thought. I've just had to have a look at Wikipedia to quickly ascertain these.

From the top ten some were teenage prodigies...

So...we will take out Shearer (youngest player to score a top flight hat-trick - at 17), Owen and Fowler straight away. Even then it could be said that Shearer didn't start to really blossom until at Rovers when he was over 21.

That leaves these...

Andy Cole - Was a special talent but even so didn't play in the Premiership until almost 22.

Thierry Henry - Again we are talking about someone a bit special here but even so he didn't hit his stride until at least 23 in his second season with Arsenal and I'd personally say not until the season after that even when inspiring them to the double.

Les Ferdinand - At the age of 21 was being sent to Brentford and Turkey on loan after having started with Hayes. Definitely didn't come into his own until 25. First England cap when 26.

Teddy Sheringham - Did at well at Millwall but it took a move to Nottingham Forest when 25 to make him start looking like the real deal. First England cap at 27.

Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink - Was 23 before he started really slotting them away and had to move to Portugal to do so. Oh and even that was for the mighty Campioranese.

Dwight Yorke - Played a long time for Villa but I would say he really started impressing about 96 when he was 23/24. Played before then but nothing too amazing, in fact that is giving the benefit of the doubt - only looked star quality in the year before he moved to Man U I felt.

Ian Wright - At the age of 21 was turning out for Greenwich Borough. Didn't even play in the top flight until 25 - three months before his twenty sixth birthday.

So....to answer the question...

Taking the ten top goalscorers into account (who may be expected to be a bit special earlier as they are so good) then 70% haven't really got going at the age of 21.

How's that?

Edited January 15, 2007 by FourLaneBlue

[den]

That's a bit of a sketchy list FLB. If you say Shearer didn't make a regular player ubtil he was 22, you're way off the mark. He scored a hat trick against Arsenal and Tony Adams in particular at the age of 17. He scored 7 goals in 4 games, at the age of 20, in the Toulon under 21 tournament. He played for England before he came to Rovers, demanding a record British fee.

Andy Cole was playing and scoring regularly at the age of 21, with Bristol City.

Thierry Henry played for France in the world cup at the age of 21.

Teddy Sheringham has already made over 200 league starts when he moved to Forest.

I wont check on the rest, but stand by my point that a striker should be playing regularly and showing real quality, at the age of 21ish.

Let's look at our own club. Rovers have a pretty poor record of bringing young strikers through. From when I started watching them in the early sixties, how many strikers have gone on to play regularly, and how many of those didn't appear until they turned 22 or older?

I can remember John Byrom - playing at the age of 17.

Fred Pickering - what 19 or 20? He was part of the youth cup winning side in 1960 and was playing in 62/63?

Simon Garner - played regularly at 18.

James Beattie, sold to Southampton at what 18 yrs old?

I must have missed some names out there. However, I can't remember any striker. only breaking into rovers team 22 or older.

[LeftWinger]

James Beattie, sold to Southampton at what 18 yrs old?

He was 20.

[den]

Thanks.

[FourLaneBlue]

I didn't suggest some of the things you mentioned and you should have read it a bit closer - I mentioned Shearer's hat-trick at 17 for example. You mention Cole at Bristol City...since when were they in the Premiership? I'm sure if Derbyshire was playing every game for a Championship side he would be getting among the goals too. The only sustained loan period he had was at Wrexham when he put a load in the onion bag. Sheringham was getting his appearances at Millwall...not anywhere near as difficult to get into as Rovers now.

The point was that they didn't become the players they were until later on, some might develop earlier yet to suggest they need to be in the team looking great then is untrue. Most get better as they get older whereas only a few (Fowler, Owen, Rooney) are great as a teenager. Even then it could be said that Owen and Fowler went downhill when in their mid-twenties. The question was - and I quote - "how many strikers come through, AFTER the age of 21". Well...Derbyshire is coming through now. Of the list I mentioned 70% continued to get better after the age of 21. It is harder for Derbyshire to come through now, in the age of big squads, than it ever has been. Rovers signed four strikers in the summer yet he is still pushing for a place.

You keep changing the boundaries of the question...despite keep talking about Derbyshire having to be "Premiership quality" by this age but then compare him to Simon Garner (top-flight appearances = 0) who Kendall was happy to offload to Halifax I believe. Do you seriously think Garner would have broke through in this team at that age?

As for "I wont check on the rest"...brilliant den, you even skipped Ferdinand to get to Sheringham and then ignored the rest. Those are obviously something special as I don't think we are expecting him to be a Shearer or a Wright.

Derbyshire is showing enough to Hughes to get picked at the moment. It's only a bit over a month since he started against Nancy and he is doing well...apart from the finishing. If people wish to write him off I think they should give him the benefit of longer than that. Nonda has had longer to finally start showing something so why not give Derbyshire a break?

Edited January 15, 2007 by FourLaneBlue

[broadsword]

Ian Wright was still playing non-league at the age of 21 I think.

Den, you seem to have a fixation for this. I don't think you're saying anything new. But then again, probably no-one else is either.

[den]

I'm probably not saying anything new Bryan.

FLB, I don't want it to develop into a personal ding-gong, I've too much respect for you as a site contributor.

Let me try to clarify what I'm trying to say. It quite simple. If a player [striker] is going to make it with his current club, he's really going to have to be at that standard, by the time he's touching 22.

"You mention Cole at Bristol City...since when were they in the Premiership? " - They weren't. What I said was show me a striker in the prem, who wasn't showing the required qualities at around 21 yrs of age. I haven't seen that in Matt YET. History shows at our club, if they're gonna come through, they come through young.

I'm sure people are getting fed up with me posting on this thread and see it as FLB said, anti Academy. If I was anti academy, why have I seen just about every youth cup home tie and even some away games for a lot of seasons now. So rather than agitate people some more, it's probably better if someone else steps in. Sorry for over posting guys, but the youth team is something I've always taken great interest in.

[Scotty]

There's no point comparing Derbyshire's development against other players as everyone's different. Some players are early developers (e.g. Rooney), some aren't. It's looks to me like Derbyshire still has some filling out to do before anyone can claim he's fully developed.

That said, I'm still not sure he's going to make it. He's enthusiastic, reasonably quick, and has a decent touch. He's also got a knack of getting into good positions and finding space in the box. However, I'm not sure he makes the most intelligent runs ever and, so far, his finishing has been suspect. He's not going to trouble too many centre-halves physically either, even when he's filled out.

If his finishing was better you could say he was a goalscorer, someone who'll get into good positions and finish things off providing he gets the service. However, to become a player like that in the Premiership he needs to do better than he's done so far.

For me, at the moment, he's a useful player to have on the bench. His pace and enthusiasm can have an impact when the game is stretched in the last half hour, but he's not good enough yet imo to start matches.

[RevidgeBlue]

If a player [striker] is going to make it with his current club, he's really going to have to be at that standard, by the time he's touching 22.

So, even by your criteria Derbyshire still has another couple of years to make it into a 30 Premiership goal a season striker.

In terms of Rovers strikers I can only think back to Beattie's debut when he was fed to the lions (i.e. Bould and Adams) v Arsenal many years ago. Not only was he not getting on the end of chances, he was barely good enough on the day to get a touch of the ball.

Beatts never looked as if he was going to make a player in his early Rovers days and I think everyone was pleased to get 1m for him at the time. Probably means nothing at all but I would say Derbyshire is showing far more promise after half a dozen first team appearances than Beattie did.

Edited January 15, 2007 by RevidgeBlue

[FourLaneBlue]

I didn't think it was resorting into anything personal as I see it den - I like to have a good debate.

However it does seem to have lead to us assuming rather intransigent positions on the subject. Actually I don't think Derbyshire has been particularly impressive and he certainly can't be compared to those strikers we have been mentioning.

The only thing I think we should do is see him some more. If Derbyshire wasn't an Academy player then some of the people on this site (and I'm thinking of others on here than you) would not be so harsh and so critical. It's because he is a local lad that so many of the opinions (pro/anti) are skewed.

As for the Academy...would it work better with a shake-up, some new personnel and some new ideas brought in? If Rovers don't try that then how will we ever know?

[stuwilky]

Repeating myself here, but he does seem to have an uncanny knack of getting on the end of chances. You can't teach or learn that imo, you've either got it or you haven't.

Not only "chances". But strangely enough virtual shoe ins. Far too soon to write him off.

now Rev, interesting, having watched Matt at various points throughout his career, both at Great Harwood and Ewood he has always been able to that, he lacks, as I have said repeatedly real pace and shooting ability.

You can teach someone to shoot, and they dont necessarily need real pace to be a success.

[den]

As for the Academy...would it work better with a shake-up, some new personnel and some new ideas brought in? If Rovers don't try that then how will we ever know?

Final, final points [honest].

My worry is that the academy will have an even more difficult task in attracting the best young lads to Brockhall, now that some of the facilities have been taken away and given for the first teams use.

If we don't get the best youngsters down to Brockhall, the academy can't do what it was set up to do - provide players for the first team.

[pleasure]

You can teach someone to shoot, and they dont necessarily need real pace to be a success.

agreed. any chance of getting dean saunders back, as striker coach ?

[rover_groo]

In terms of Rovers strikers I can only think back to Beattie's debut when he was fed to the lions (i.e. Bould and Adams) v Arsenal many years ago. Not only was he not getting on the end of chances, he was barely good enough on the day to get a touch of the ball.

Beatts never looked as if he was going to make a player in his early Rovers days and I think everyone was pleased to get 1m for him at the time.

Rev, it's a tough call this, but handing the lad 3 starts and 5 sub appearances, then it's likely to say he wouldn't cut it as a player. It was a tough ask for him to be an immediate impact and when an offer of £1 million came in tow with an exhange for Kevin Davies, then it was impossible to turn that sort of offer down, as Davies was in great form with the Saints. I only seen Beattie pay for Blackburn in the 2-0 defeat to Arsenal and how could you suggest that he was never going t make it as a decent Premiership player. Quite ironic to see that we also had a young Given on the bench as understudy to Flowers that say as well!!

That said, when I was approaching my last year or two as a teenager and living in Northern Ireland I had to resort to the match-day programmes as a source of information on Blackburns youth (cause Groobs wasn't in proper existance) and seen that both Beattie and Gary Hamilton were hugely prolific goal-scorers in the academy and reserves. Hardly surprising that they would go onto represent their respective countries at senior International level!!

I think that youth have to be given a chance in order to prove themselves, instead of 'feeding them to the lions' and firing in a few appearances from the bench. I think that Debyshire will be dropped for the City game and if we are in strong control of the game then he will get about 30 or so minutes.

He's a quality act and needs to lift his confidence a wee bit more and get rid of the nerves he seems to have in front of goal. No-one can fault his work-rate and he needs to start against Watford.

[Silencio]

Rev, it's a tough call this, but handing the lad 3 starts and 5 sub appearances, then it's likely to say he wouldn't cut it as a player. It was a tough ask for him to be an immediate impact and when an offer of £1 million came in tow with an exhange for Kevin Davies, then it was impossible to turn that sort of offer down, as Davies was in great form with the Saints. I only seen Beattie pay for Blackburn in the 2-0 defeat to Arsenal and how could you suggest that he was never going t make it as a decent Premiership player. Quite ironic to see that we also had a young Given on the bench as understudy to Flowers that say as well!!

That said, when I was approaching my last year or two as a teenager and living in Northern Ireland I had to resort to the match-day programmes as a source of information on Blackburns youth (cause Groobs wasn't in proper existance) and seen that both Beattie and Gary Hamilton were hugely prolific goal-scorers in the academy and reserves. Hardly surprising that they would go onto represent their respective countries at senior International level!!

I think that youth have to be given a chance in order to prove themselves, instead of 'feeding them to the lions' and firing in a few appearances from the bench. I think that Debyshire will be dropped for the City game and if we are in strong control of the game then he will get about 30 or so minutes.

He's a quality act and needs to lift his confidence a wee bit more and get rid of the nerves he seems to have in front of goal. No-one can fault his work-rate and he needs to start against Watford.

What happened to Gary Hamilton? really liked him as a youngster and thought he would make it for us.

[Mark Atkins' Bald Patch]

What happened to Gary Hamilton? really liked him as a youngster and thought he would make it for us.

He went back to his and my hometown club ... Portadown, banged them in for fun there and now he's playing for the Irish League champions Glentoran ... he's scored 29 goals so far this season including about 3 hatricks (top scorer by a fair margin).

He's a notoriously bad trainer and thus is on a contract at Glentoran whereby he only gets paid if he makes all the weeks training sessions.

He loves the booze in a big way too and was more or less booted out of Portadown after a fallout with the manager who had enough of his poor training/attitude.

Having said that he looks a new player this season and has been linked with, wait for it, Burnley in last weeks local press.

A superb eye for goal but admitted to me himself on a stag weekend last year that he lacks the fitness, enthusiasm and determination to succeed in the prem.

He remains good friends with Duffer and told me that when the opportunity came up for the chelsea move, he didn't have to think twice .. he was off like a rocket ... which is contrary to some reports we heard at the time.

Edited January 15, 2007 by MarkAtkins'BaldPatch

[rover_groo]

What happened to Gary Hamilton? really liked him as a youngster and thought he would make it for us.

He's currently in the Irish League playing for Glentoran, after signing in July and is sitting on 29 goals already this season. When he left Blackburn Henning Berg got him a trial at Norweigian club Rufoss, but didn't work out and he returned to Northern Ireland with Portadown. He had an indifferent few season's at Shamrock Park, starting off brilliantly in his 1st two season's and later managed 5 caps for Northern Ireland in the process.

There has been several references to his antics off the pitch and last season was frozen out by Portadown manager Ronnie McFall. However, when a deal was done to join Glentoran he work hard on his fitness before the move and has been hailed as the best signing this season. There has been a bit of speculation that a recall Northern Ireland senior squad and a possible move across to mainland England could be around the corner.

Basic follow-up and recent photos since his move to Blackburn can be found here:-

Gary Hamilton

[Silencio]

Glad he's doing okay and picked up some caps. Thought he might have left football. He was a talented youngster certainly, lots of different shots on him and clever round the box. Would be pleased to see him do okay if he does come back over. (Not for Burnley though).

Is he the best player in the league over there then?

[Mark Atkins' Bald Patch]

Glad he's doing okay and picked up some caps. Thought he might have left football. He was a talented youngster certainly, lots of different shots on him and clever round the box. Would be pleased to see him do okay if he does come back over. (Not for Burnley though).

Is he the best player in the league over there then?

I don't watch enough Irish League to tell you categorically if he's the best ... maybe Rover_groo has a more informed opinion.

What i can tell is that he's top of the scoring charts and making the all headlines this season for footballing reasons and IMO is the only Irish league player with a chance of a call up to the national team.

[rover_groo]

Glad he's doing okay and picked up some caps. Thought he might have left football. He was a talented youngster certainly, lots of different shots on him and clever round the box. Would be pleased to see him do okay if he does come back over. (Not for Burnley though).

Is he the best player in the league over there then?

Well you certainly aren't the 1st to label Gary as a 'clever striker', but infact former youth coach Rob Kelly described him as this.

He certainly a potent striker, but not sure if he's the best player there. As MABP mentioned he lost his way with booze, fags and other vices and with that his desire left the game. However, he's made a remarkable turn-around this season and seemingly has got his act together.

Some of the other best players are Alan Mannus (Linfield), Peter Thompson (Linfield), Kevin Pressman (Portadown), Kevin Kelbie (Ballymena United), Garth Scates (Ballymena United), Michael Halliday (Glentoran), Kyle Neill (Glentoran), Elliott Morris (Glentoran). I'm sure you probably havn't heard tell of any of them but you asked if he was the best!

Larne also have former Blackburn Youth player Lewis Hamlin on their books. He travels over each week to play and train for them!! He's only managed the 4 goals this season.

[Silencio]

Well you certainly aren't the 1st to label Gary as a 'clever striker', but infact former youth coach Rob Kelly described him as this.

He certainly a potent striker, but not sure if he's the best player there. As MABP mentioned he lost his way with booze, fags and other vices and with that his desire left the game. However, he's made a remarkable turn-around this season and seemingly has got his act together.

Some of the other best players are Alan Mannus (Linfield), Peter Thompson (Linfield), Kevin Pressman (Portadown), Kevin Kelbie (Ballymena United), Garth Scates (Ballymena United), Michael Halliday (Glentoran), Kyle Neill (Glentoran), Elliott Morris (Glentoran). I'm sure you probably havn't heard tell of any of them but you asked if he was the best!

Larne also have former Blackburn Youth player Lewis Hamlin on their books. He travels over each week to play and train for them!! He's only managed the 4 goals this season.

Didn't Garth Scates play for us too. He used to score a few from midfield if I remember?

[LeftWinger]

Some of the other best players are Alan Mannus (Linfield), Peter Thompson (Linfield), Kevin Pressman (Portadown), Kevin Kelbie (Ballymena United), Garth Scates (Ballymena United), Michael Halliday (Glentoran), Kyle Neill (Glentoran), Elliott Morris (Glentoran). I'm sure you probably havn't heard tell of any of them but you asked if he was the best!

That must be the same Garth Scates that was on our books?

[den]

Garth Scates.

[rover_groo]

He did indeed. The former Rovers layers currently playing in the Irish League are:

Gary Hamilton (Glentoran)

profile

Lewis Hamlin (Larne)

Steve Hawe (Coagh United)

Peter McCann (Glentoran)

Garth Scates (Ballymena)

profile

Jon Topley (Loughgall)

Edited January 15, 2007 by rover_groo

[92er]

With the apparent bid coming in for Burnley's Lafferty from Celtic for £0.5 million, it reminded me that Burnley had also produced Chaplow who was sold to WBA for approx £1.5 million a couple of years ago.

If we contrast that with the sale of Danns, plus his sell-on clause, and the sale of Johnson to Wolves, the only 2 players I can think of that we have sold in a similar period, we also have McEveley,who many deem not to be a Premiership player and Gallagher who MH does not seem to rate, both of whom could be sold. Derbyshire certainly seems capable of making a career in football though it is still not clear at what level.

McEveley and Danns came to us at 16, I guess Derbyshire came at 16/17.

Lafferty, I presume came to Burnley at 16/17.

Oh, and Burnley are still in the FA Youth cup.

All this success might be a flash in the pan, but it should make uncomfortable reading for the people at the Rovers Academy that the job they are doing is really not good enough, whilst Burnley are producing some results with a lot less money being put into their system.