[Archived] Congratulations To Newcastle United

[gumboots]

Geordie boy Bruce etches his name in to Newcastle folklore - not!

Sunderland boss Bruce targets Sebastien Bassong

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/nufc/newcas...72703-23804404/

Please Sam, of you're reading this, after years of seeing our managers and best players either unsettled, plundered or both by the Barcodes, can we join in the bidding?

Only if we don't have to buy him. If we put in a bid we'd probably end up with him and I know he was one of their better defenders but do we really need him?

[John]

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Shea...ns39.4159103.jp

It does worry me that JW seemed to base his decision so heavily on that LET poll. Shearer and Ince were 1st and 2nd, Shearer was first approached and then Ince was second to be approached.

I am still stunned so many people wanted Ince as our manager. Complete madness.

[leftfooter]

Only if we don't have to buy him. If we put in a bid we'd probably end up with him and I know he was one of their better defenders but do we really need him?

Probably not (although I have my doubts about Nelson's long-term fitness).

Couldn't we at least put in a derisory offer?

[tony gale's mic]

I am still stunned so many people wanted Ince as our manager. Complete madness.

IMO it was even bigger madness that 3 times as many wanted Shearer as our manager. Ince was a bad, bad choice and certainly not one I supported at the time, but without using hindsight at least he'd had some experience managing and some successes, no matter how low down the league they were. Shearer had nothing, and almost half supported him whereas Ince only polled around 15%.

[American]

Williams says that the decision had more to do with growing as a club with a younger, less expensive manager, pointing out that it worked with Hughes who had no club management experience.

[yoda]

Williams says that the decision had more to do with growing as a club with a younger, less expensive manager, pointing out that it worked with Hughes who had no club management experience.

But had all the qualifications!

[philipl]

Cannot resist posting this:

2. At 11:59pm on 06 Jun 2009, SolidSnakeToon wrote:

the blog is to big, i gave up reading it

The blog in question is 23 sentences long (on the BBC website about England's win) and to help Toon each sentence is placed in its own paragraph.

No wonder most people consider Newcastle supporters to be utterly stupid.

[tony gale's mic]

Williams says that the decision had more to do with growing as a club with a younger, less expensive manager, pointing out that it worked with Hughes who had no club management experience.

Hughes had masterminded great results for Wales against Czech Republic, Germany, Italy, Argentina and Croatia and got them from 100th in the world upto around 50th.

There's a world of difference between that and what Ince achieved, and it was worrying that Williams couldn't see that.

[JAL]

There's a world of difference between that and what Ince achieved, and it was worrying that Williams couldn't see that.

We keep naming John Wiliams but arent there some more members on the board that should be named and shamed for the summer fiasco. Keep thinking when they slimmed the board down in numbers a couple of years, big questions also have to be asked of the others that have remained.

[American]

Hughes had masterminded great results for Wales against Czech Republic, Germany, Italy, Argentina and Croatia and got them from 100th in the world upto around 50th.

There's a world of difference between that and what Ince achieved, and it was worrying that Williams couldn't see that.

Club and country management are two completely different things - Wales also bottled it at the end, mind you.

Unfortunately, 2nd division and Premier League management are also two completely different things, but what Ince did with Maccelsfield is far more impressive than what happened with Wales.

[thenodrog]

Ooops!!

That was an intentional error Tris... unlike the spelling mistake preceding it. Small keyboard big fingers.

BTW whats all this grammatically correct stuff about at the moment?

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Shea...ns39.4159103.jp

It does worry me that JW seemed to base his decision so heavily on that LET poll. Shearer and Ince were 1st and 2nd, Shearer was first approached and then Ince was second to be approached. I still struggle to believe 46% of our fans wanted Shearer as our boss after Hughes; we laugh and laugh at Newcastle fans but that's a very poor reflection on the level of insight some of our fans seem to have.

Of course it should be a factor, but the reality is we have men who are paid handsomely to make these decisions based on a lot more than just public polls. I'm sure other things came into play, but on the other hand it does seem like it influenced the decision far more than it should've done.

Exactly right TGM.

Hughes had masterminded great results for Wales against Czech Republic, Germany, Italy, Argentina and Croatia and got them from 100th in the world upto around 50th.

There's a world of difference between that and what Ince achieved, and it was worrying that Williams couldn't see that.

Especially after interviewing the numpty!

[tony gale's mic]

Club and country management are two completely different things - Wales also bottled it at the end, mind you.

Unfortunately, 2nd division and Premier League management are also two completely different things, but what Ince did with Maccelsfield is far more impressive than what happened with Wales.

Completely disagree. I agree that club and country management are different, but then managing at League Two level is so, so different to managing to Premier League level in terms of what the job entails (let alone the level) that the difference is just as great there aswell.

What Ince did with Macclesfield was excellent but he was pitting his wits tactically against other managers who weren't that good. Producing the goods at the highest level against top managers and players (which Hughes achieved considering the quality of the opposition he faced) is another thing entirely. You can't compare achievements that have been achieved at a level that is much higher to a level which is achieved at a level next to that of the Conference. Otherwise we'd be comparing the achievements of Big Sam with League Two managers and using that as a fair judge of their managerial abilities.

Hughes showed he could handle Premier League players, motivate them and gain their respect, tactically pit his wits and come out on tops against some of the world's top managers. Those are the sorts of qualities you'd want in a Premier League manager - his prior experience with our club was a factor too.

Ince showed none of these things, and whilst his achievements with Macclesfield and to a lesser extent MK Dons were impressive, they should have been a springboard for a League One or at the very most a Championship job, and certainly not one of the hardest jobs in the Premier League for a club which had finished top 10 the previous three seasons. Comparing the two appointments is misguided in the extreme.

[LeChuck]

but what Ince did with Maccelsfield is far more impressive than what happened with Wales.

More impressive? Possibly True. However, it has far, far less relevance to being a Premiership manager than Hughes' time with Wales did. Hughes was competing against some of the best teams and managers in the world, and at that time Wales still had big names and egos which he had to blend into a successful team. Ince was managing players barely good enough to be professionals and competing against managers who probably also wash their team kit after the game.

Coming from however many points behind Macclesfield were to safety was impressive, but the two are incomparable in terms of preparing them for Premiership management.

[broadsword]

l

Unfortunately, 2nd division and Premier League management are also two completely different things, but what Ince did with Maccelsfield is far more impressive than what happened with Wales.

You've got to be kidding?

[John]

Unfortunately, 2nd division and Premier League management are also two completely different things, but what Ince did with Maccelsfield is far more impressive than what happened with Wales.

Surely a wind up!

[philipl]

Surely a wind up!

You should look on ICBINF to see his real wind ups!

[American]

What exactly did Hughes accomplish at Wales? Choking in the playoffs? He was dealing with established professionals for a week at a time. Bruce Arena got the US to the World Cup QF in 2002 (and should have gotten to the semis), but that doesn't qualify him to manage at Premier League level.

I'm not saying that Ince was more qualified to be a Premier League manager, I'm saying that they were both a big gamble. One worked, one didn't.

How many anti-Ince people were creaming themselves about us signing Shearer, who didn't have any experience? Thank God that didn't happen.

[tony gale's mic]

What exactly did Hughes accomplish at Wales? Choking in the playoffs? He was dealing with established professionals for a week at a time. Bruce Arena got the US to the World Cup QF in 2002 (and should have gotten to the semis), but that doesn't qualify him to manage at Premier League level.

I'm not saying that Ince was more qualified to be a Premier League manager, I'm saying that they were both a big gamble. One worked, one didn't.

How many anti-Ince people were creaming themselves about us signing Shearer, who didn't have any experience? Thank God that didn't happen.

I was totally against Shearer, but that's probably the only remotely valid point you've made here.

Hughes got Wales up from 100th in the world upto their highest ranking in over a decade. He masterminded excellent results vs Italy, Germany, Croatia, Argentina, Czech Republic and Germany. The very fact he got them so close to the Euros was a brilliant achievement in itself considering they'd been at their lowest ebb for years and that they had only ever qualified for one major tournament in their history.

The US are a considerably better side than Wales, so comparing the job of Arena to what Hughes did is pretty off the mark. Saying it is comparable to what Ince did with Macclesfield at a much, much lower level does really sound like some sort of bizzare wind up.

[American]

I was totally against Shearer, but that's probably the only remotely valid point you've made here.

Hughes got Wales up from 100th in the world upto their highest ranking in over a decade. He masterminded excellent results vs Italy, Germany, Croatia, Argentina, Czech Republic and Germany. The very fact he got them so close to the Euros was a brilliant achievement in itself considering they'd been at their lowest ebb for years and that they had only ever qualified for one major tournament in their history.

The US are a considerably better side than Wales, so comparing the job of Arena to what Hughes did is pretty off the mark. Saying it is comparable to what Ince did with Macclesfield at a much, much lower level does really sound like some sort of bizzare wind up.

Ince took a club from 10 points from safety to safety. He took his next club to a cup and promotion. Hughes had Bellamy, Giggs and Savage, amongst others.

Hindsight is wonderful, but Hughes was just as much of a risk. Williams can't afford to get a choice wrong, unlike when managers sign players who seem a stretch (to whit, Samba cost the same as Righters, but signing Righters didn't put us at risk for relegation).

[tony gale's mic]

Ince took a club from 10 points from safety to safety. He took his next club to a cup and promotion. Hughes had Bellamy, Giggs and Savage, amongst others.

Hindsight is wonderful, but Hughes was just as much of a risk. Williams can't afford to get a choice wrong, unlike when managers sign players who seem a stretch (to whit, Samba cost the same as Righters, but signing Righters didn't put us at risk for relegation).

But you cannot, cannot compare achievements at League Two level with achievements at a much, much higher level. Those three players you mentioned had been playing for Wales long before Hughes arrived. In terms of the quality of achievement, what Hughes did against the international teams I listed is equivalent to achievements at Premier League level in terms of the players handled and the managers Hughes had to come up against. Of course it's not the same since the job entails different things at Premier League level, but then the job entails vastly different things between Premier League and League Two level too.

Hughes masterminded brilliant results against some of the worlds finest teams and managers with a side ranked 100th in the world when he took over. He showed he was capable of handling Premier League egos and earning their respect. He also had a good knowledge of the club and working relationship with several of the players.

Ince managed in the lowest division in English football. What he did with Macclesfield was excellent, but clearly the fact it was at such a low level renders it nowhere near as much of an achievement as if it happened in the Premier League or Championship. Otherwise, every side would be looking for the best managerial performance across the four leagues and using that to find their new manager.

Surely you must see the big differences.

[American]

I'm saying I see the difference between League 2 and the Premier League, but you clearly don't see the difference between club and country management. In his position with Wales, he had months to come up with a game plan for each match, and to scout 2 clubs, plus only having to get the players up for 2 matches in a week, not week after week. A far different story than day to day club management, no matter what the level.

[broadsword]

Ince took a club from 10 points from safety to safety. He took his next club to a cup and promotion. Hughes had Bellamy, Giggs and Savage, amongst others.

Hindsight is wonderful, but Hughes was just as much of a risk. Williams can't afford to get a choice wrong, unlike when managers sign players who seem a stretch (to whit, Samba cost the same as Righters, but signing Righters didn't put us at risk for relegation).

It just goes to show there's more to football that just statistics.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who could've done what Ince did, but not so many who could've achieved what Hughes did.

A bit of astute research would've discovered this.

[tony gale's mic]

I'm saying I see the difference between League 2 and the Premier League, but you clearly don't see the difference between club and country management. In his position with Wales, he had months to come up with a game plan for each match, and to scout 2 clubs, plus only having to get the players up for 2 matches in a week, not week after week. A far different story than day to day club management, no matter what the level.

The difference in level is far greater an obstacle than the difference in the job, this much should be obvious. A good manager at international level is usually a good manager at club level, a manager at international level has to make the best of the resources available to him and can't make signings like a club manager can so that goes a fair way to negating the increased time given to the job. The tactical side of things is still the same as club football, and for a man to get so many quality results for a fairly poor side against such high calibre opposition and managers is a far better indication as to the tactical side of things than out thinking a few League Two managers as Ince did. Yes club managers are afforded less time but if you've demonstrated your abilities at getting the most out of players, handling big egos and if you're a good tactician like Hughes demonstrated with Wales, the other bits of the job should easily follow.

And while both Rovers and MK Dons jobs may have been day-to-day club jobs, thats where the similarities end. Hughes had to carry the weight of expectation of a nation and came under more pressure and came under more scrutiny than Ince ever did with MK Dons. The media side of things again gave Hughes better preparation for a job in the Premier League, as did dealing with Premier League egos as Wales manager and earning their respect. Ince said in an interview shortly after joining Rovers that at Macclesfield he was booking coaches for away trips amongst various other things he'd never have done at Rovers. At Rovers he had to deal with some of the country's richest clubs after his star players. The two jobs may have been both club jobs but in terms of the nature of the job there was just the same gap in difference as there would be between a Premier League and national side job. And, like Bryan said, various managers couldve done what Ince did. Very few could do what Hughes did in charge for Wales.

I hope at least you're not still trying to claim that what Ince did was far more impressive than what Hughes did with Wales...

[Blue n White Rover]

The difference in level is far greater an obstacle than the difference in the job, this much should be obvious. A good manager at international level is usually a good manager at club level, a manager at international level has to make the best of the resources available to him and can't make signings like a club manager can so that goes a fair way to negating the increased time given to the job. The tactical side of things is still the same as club football, and for a man to get so many quality results for a fairly poor side against such high calibre opposition and managers is a far better indication as to the tactical side of things than out thinking a few League Two managers as Ince did. Yes club managers are afforded less time but if you've demonstrated your abilities at getting the most out of players, handling big egos and if you're a good tactician like Hughes demonstrated with Wales, the other bits of the job should easily follow.

I personally feel it's down to the manager himself and not whether he manages international teams or League teams. Perfect example of this would be Scolari and Hiddink. Both have managed International teams all through out, however, one managed to cut it in the PL and the other didn't. Whether there was politics and board interfereces in Scolari's reign is another debate.

But it doesn't make Scolari a rubbish manager, you just need to look at his CV to prove that to you. It's what you know about your team, and how effective your tactics were. Look how Hughes set up when he took over. It didn't take a genius to work out we were shipping away goal for fun. He made us hard to beat and it worked wonders. Where as, with Ince, he didn't have that tactical thinking which Sparky had, you just need to look at the Wigan game. I think at one point we had Jason Roberts at Right Back. He didn't know how to defend or organise a team.

[tony gale's mic]

I personally feel it's down to the manager himself and not whether he manages international teams or League teams. Perfect example of this would be Scolari and Hiddink. Both have managed International teams all through out, however, one managed to cut it in the PL and the other didn't. Whether there was politics and board interfereces in Scolari's reign is another debate.

Well, Hiddink managed club teams for a bit..but it's hard to use Scolari's eventual reign as an example since there was potential board interference/language issues etc. What is obvious was that a top team competing for the biggest honours didn't think twice before appointing a man with no club experience. That same club would never even THINK about appointing someone from the Championship even if they'd performed miracles there (obviously we would, but I've adjusted the level of the league up to reflect the example I'm using in Chelsea).

I'm sure other top clubs would have considered Scolari near the top of their lists given a similar position too.