[Archived] The "big Club" Debate

[Bobby G]

One of my friends is a Newcastle fan and today we got into an argument about the abovementioned topic and he says Newcastle are a big club and that the concept of a big club emanates from the fan base NOT trophies won or success on the pitch. For him, Chelsea is a big club now because their fans have increased and they have money.

He doesnt seem to think that since Newcastle hasnt won craap for God knows how long, it doesnt affect the categorization.

I told him Blackburns a town of about 120,000 people and theyre a small club in terms of size but in history we have been more successful than so many of these so-called big clubs. Oh he says that Blackburn is Lancashire so the whole county is supposed to represent Blackburn and yet we dont have any support. I told him he is talking rubbish. Absolute rubbish I say.

He says we won the league because of Uncle Jacks money and I replied that theyve spent more in the Premiership than we ever did.

It just gets on my nerves how some people think, especially lame Newcastle fans! Down with the barcodes.

[Hasta]

Not wishing to become all 'Mody' but I remember we had a good debate a while ago here.

A lot of peoples views are in there.

[tcj_jones]

From Sky Sports:

St James' Park Group Limited - the consortium backed by Polygon Global Opportunities Master Fund - have opted not to make an offer for the Premiership giants 'at this time'.

What the HELL?!

I can understand teams like Liverpool and Arsenal being called premiership giants, despite them not being close to winning the league, but Newcastle?! Has the world gone mad?!

[Jan]

And a good way to deal with THEM is to remind them that Alan Shearer alone cost about the same as our championship winning side, and then to ask who he won his medal with. That gets them annoyed.

Following up with the word bottle (as in "you're a crowd of bottlers") while reminding them that we DIDN'T fold to Manchester United also helps!

And finally, reminding them that they paid us actual cash money for Souness clinches the deal.

[tcj_jones]

Superb!

[joey_big_nose]

Not wishing to become all 'Mody' but I remember we had a good debate a while ago here.

A lot of peoples views are in there.

Its actually interesting in the context of the debate to look at that thread from over two years ago, it brings home how things change.

Anyhow, if I was brutally honest then I would say Spurs and Newcastle are bigger clubs than us despite having less recent success. More fans, more money, more latent potential. Yet I find much satisfaction in supporting a team who are punching above their weight. Pound for pound we have to be one of the most outstanding clubs in the country in terms of outdoing our many limitations in support and cash, especially in the post Walker era. Bolton fans should be proud too, they also continue to succeed even without the financial injection we enjoyed in the mid to late nineties.

Newcastle and Spurs are caught in a trap where everyone knows they should be achieving more yet seem to never do so. It has so many downsides- an overly demanding set of fans who trigger panic signings, constant searching for the next best manager, constant pressure on the board to find short term rather than long term solutions. It all undermines the effectiveness of the clubs to an extent. Also there is something nice in supporting a team which represents a smaller community than those two big city clubs. It's more of a local thing, even if I cannot claim to be a part of that locality really.

Give me Rovers anyday. And in the broader scheme of things I will always give more credit to a Reading or a Wigan or an Ipswich team doing well than one of the behemoths of the league rolling over sides with their shear mass. Somehow more of an achievement.

[broadsword]

- But, Freddie, this job is big.

- Charlie, you wouldn't even know how to spell big.

- B-l-G. Big.

Big club? What a load of plop. It's something that's defined by desperate fans who are eager to prove superiority over another club, quite often a symptom of inverse snobbery:

"Yeah, so you won the title, but our club is bigger! Our fans pay more money in larger numbers to watch us lose because our fans are bigger idiots! Ooops."

Big club? Cobblers. I get my big club out to whack teh missus over the head with and drag her back to our pied-a-cave.

Don't waste your time with such top trumps losers. They belong back in the playground.

"No no no Richard, no! A big club is defined by crowd size and we agreed on that yesterday break time. And if you disagree now I'll stick a wham bar in your ear."

Sad.

[EwoodGlory]

I get it that sort of thing from Newcastle fans all the time.

Simply simulate lifting a trophy aloft and they soon shut up

[cletus]

Simply simulate lifting a trophy aloft and they soon shut up

Which trophy would you prefer? We`ve got a few to chose from

(I`ll try the trophy lifting next time i speak to the landlord of the Fernhurst)

[RevidgeBlue]

One of my friends is a Newcastle fan and today we got into an argument about the abovementioned topic and he says Newcastle are a big club and that the concept of a big club emanates from the fan base NOT trophies won or success on the pitch.

They'd have to say that wouldn't they!!!!

In terms of attendances they're the 3rd biggest team in the Country. In terms of success on the pitch and winning things they'd hardly be in the top 30 or 40.

To me all that matters is success on the pitch, the number of people you've got watching you is completely irrelevant. To every real football fan, THEIR own club is the biggest and most important.

The "Big Clubs" are to some extent only the size they are because they are hyped up to such a massive degree by the media. The media have to do this, they have to sell copy and writing about say Blackburn or Bolton all the time isn't going to generate enough sales.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

To me personally to be classed as a 'big club' depends on three elements, history/tradition, cup success and support.The likes of Man Utd,Liverpool and Arsenal win hands down on these,there is no argument,this is reflected by their status within the English game and are the ONLY three clubs who can be classed as truly 'big' IMO.

Rovers are a strange case indeed and a unique one at that, the opening paragraph to this sites history section gives an explanation far better than I ever could.......

More FA Cup wins than any other town team, more times champions of England than any other town, winners of major trophies in three different centuries. Blackburn the club has always been caught between two stools. Too successful to judge themselves against most of the other town teams (Burnley apart who also punched above their weight and as such became worthwhile eternal rivals) and yet conversely too small to consistently challenge the big-city clubs, Rovers were an enigma. A contradiction and a team set apart. Their past was always glorious, yet their present and future has often been unsure. So what is it about Blackburn Rovers as a football club that makes them special?

[USABlue]

I'm afraid I'll have to agree with the geordie. Not his whole point of crowd size but in Newcastles case yes. Newcastle are a big club and I don't see how that could be argued. 50K plus for games, magnificent stadium. Big club but under achieving. If Newcastle ever get the right management team in with a savvy board structure they could be as big as any team in Europe.

On the crowd thing, I can't say the size of the club is based on the size of its support otherwise that would make the likes of Hull City as big as us but there is a blend of success and support that would define things better.

Just read SG 194's post, he gives a better explanation but I would include a few other clubs in the big category, mostly based on potential I suppose. Perhaps we need a big and a really really big. Some others I would include would be Spurs

Chelsea

Villa

Geordies

[Lathund]

I tend to avoid the term "Big Club" as I honestly don't care about it. I just think about a club's success, their financial status (Which would be good for most "big clubs" though) and then view them as successful or not. I grade past merits (Other than the last few years I mean) on a separate scale, as that to me has little bearing on the actual workings at the club today.

I'd much much rather be a fan of a successful club than a "big" club with no trophies. But in Swedish football it's a case of the latter Two time UEFA Cup winners, countless league titles, but all we have now is that we're a "big" club. With a former chairman, treasurer and a current player being indicted for tax fraud.

[thenodrog]

I think the Geordies are the most 'passionate'. They must be ...... they are always bloody crying!

[Billy Castell]

And a good way to deal with THEM is to remind them that Alan Shearer alone cost about the same as our championship winning side, and then to ask who he won his medal with. That gets them annoyed.

Following up with the word bottle (as in "you're a crowd of bottlers") while reminding them that we DIDN'T fold to Manchester United also helps!

And finally, reminding them that they paid us actual cash money for Souness clinches the deal.

If I had a hat on, I would take it off for that post.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

In every context Blackburn are better than Newcastle apart from fanbase.What bugs me about Newcastle more than anyother club is they bang on about There fanatical support ( as does the media ) but they are the only professional club in a catchments area 0f 600,000 ( Newcastle & Gateshead ) so they should have top-notch support. Even-so this GREAT support is only a recent phenomenon . To accompany this Newcastle fans turn on there own players and managers quicker than any other English side due to there superiority complex

Finances- if believed they are in 70 mill of debt

Better training and youth facilties

Better recent/compritive overall success

[1864roverite]

Lets put the record straight once and for all.

NEWCASTLE UNITED PLC IS NOT A BIG CLUB.

Yes they have a massive fan base and being the only team in the city its provides room in the St James park for its supporters like the way the Metro centre provides space for its shoppers.

Yes they get 50k plus in the ground so it proves they have a massive fan base.

Yes they have spent millions in their quest to put themselves into the elite BUT alas POOR GEORDIES, the club has failed in every respect in that quest.

Yes they have had a good run in Europe for once, but like Rovers, Spurs and Rangers we all have.

What have they ever won in recent times when money ahs been no object ? Nothing at all except the glorious achievement of holding the Intertoto Cup for surviving the longest in the competition ! Two final defeats can only ever be seen as failure in the adoring eyes of the all seeing non conquering team from barcode city.

How much debt are they in ? I suppose you could class them in the elite bracket for this group of clubs. I mean 80 million in the red, a fall out with a massive investor - to - be in Polygon ? Says it all and emphasises the amateurish way the club is run.

So there you are my friend. take that little lot back to your friend and ram it down his throat with his awful brew of Newcy Brown.

oh yes I nearly forgot. Newcastle have envious eyes cast upon many a club and seem to think that by nicking their managers or players that they will themselves gain instant success. Its a tried and tested method at St James Park and still they dont learn to cope with failure

[Bobby G]

Amen to that 1864roverite!

[Gav]

Completely disagree.

This all depends on how you categories’ a big club, a subject that’s been done to death but Newcastle:

Have a massive fan base.

Spend whatever it takes to buy the best players.

Pay wages at the highest level.

Should be a top 6 side.

These points to me put them in the BIG CLUB bracket.

[stuwilky]

Its interesting to note that these millions of fans disappeared when they were ######. The average attendance at SJP in 1989/90 was less than 20,000....

[Bobby G]

Just to play Devils advocate here...Juventus who fail to pull more than 20,000 in their 65,000 stadium thus signalling not enough support or whatever would not be a big club?

Im just trying to say where does off the field categorizations meet with on-field success?

And we arent talking about 1 season wonders, but rather a club that has had major success over a long-term period.

On paper, we have won more trophies than Newcastle, we have had more trophies won in the recent past too, and Im not even arguing that we are a big club, but just because Newcastle have a big stadium and spend millions for success which we have effectively achieved with much less, then why are they a big club? If its the aspect of pulling power then what if the world's richest man buys Watford tomorrow and they spend 60 million in the transfer market signing about 5-6 players, will that mean they are a big club because of that?

[Gav]

Its interesting to note that these millions of fans disappeared when they were ######. The average attendance at SJP in 1989/90 was less than 20,000....

I've pointed out the very same numerous times when arguing with the barcodes, they're very much like burnley fans and have amnesia when talking about the past. I like a few others have been to Newcastle in the 80's with well under 20k on.

Just to play Devils advocate here...Juventus who fail to pull more than 20,000 in their 65,000 stadium thus signalling not enough support or whatever would not be a big club?

Im just trying to say where does off the field categorizations meet with on-field success?

And we arent talking about 1 season wonders, but rather a club that has had major success over a long-term period.

On paper, we have won more trophies than Newcastle, we have had more trophies won in the recent past too, and Im not even arguing that we are a big club, but just because Newcastle have a big stadium and spend millions for success which we have effectively achieved with much less, then why are they a big club? If its the aspect of pulling power then what if the world's richest man buys Watford tomorrow and they spend 60 million in the transfer market signing about 5-6 players, will that mean they are a big club because of that?

I think its about how teams are perceived in the current climate. Newcastle have been at the top of the English game in terms of all the points I've given for many years now. It all boils down to money these days and if you've got the cash the worlds your lobster.....even if you're Watford.

[Bobby G]

And St. James Park was at its current capacity back then too?

Btw, when I told this friend of mine that congrats on the Intertoto Cup win, your first in 37 years, he snapped back its 32 years and I said are you sure as Im pretty sure its 37, and he replied I think I would know more about my club.

Also, something which hasnt been touched upon in the discussion yet, what about his point about Lancashire said in the original post?

[den]

There's a difference between a big club and a club with a big fanbase.

There are loads of clubs with big fan bases in the lower leagues, - however, the BIG CLUBS are the clubs who will always [give or take an odd season] be challenging for the top honours.

That's why rovers aren't a big club. Yes we have won more than most other clubs around in the last decade or so, but Rovers can't be *guaranteed* to be challenging at the top - ever.

[stuwilky]

Oh he says that Blackburn is Lancashire so the whole county is supposed to represent Blackburn and yet we dont have any support

Ask him how many League clubs he has within 30 miles of SJP

- Its 2 btw - Hartlepool and Sunderland

And then Ewood (14); Preston, Burnley, Bury, Liverpool, Everton, Bolton, Wigan, Rochdale, Oldham, United, City, Blackpool, Stockport, Huddersfield.