[Archived] Three Cheers For John Williams

[RevidgeBlue]

I wasn't the least bit surprised by the gate. It's very boring to keep banging on about the reasons but they are written plain for all to see - and this must include those responsible for running the Premier League. In no particular order:

1. For all on here we are in the middle of a decent run of form. 9 wins out of the last 15 in all competitions. For the less committed we lost a diabolical game at home to Arsenal, put in a terrible performance to lose at the bottom club and been soundly beaten at Stamford Bridge. Great form.

2. We've played 6 out of 7 away in January, it hardly helps to keep the adrenalin flowing. After Boro and Liverpool I just wanted more so went to Wigan after deciding not to go. Anyone who was buzzing after those games won't have seen a decent game at Ewood since then. Football should be 3.00pm Saturday, every other week. One home game in five weeks and people switch off.

3. Sheffield United typify the quality of the Premiership. Other than having an ST nothing would persuade me I need to see this team

4. Look at the PL table, then look at the Italian and Spanish tables. Spot the difference? No, you won't. The last few weeks I've been think the PL table truely demonstrates the povery of this competition. 3-4 four teams capable of amassing a decent points total, the rest averaging 1.3 a game or less!!!

5. Today's match was meaningless for many. We won't go down, who cares what Sheff Utd do, we aren't competing to win the league. Our PL season is over. There may be fans without STs deciding I'll save my money in the hope we continue to progress in the cups.

I spent the whole second half wishing the game would end. It was awful, yes MGP's goal was fantastic, but waht will the less committed fan remember? 90 minutes of poor entertainment or one moment of brilliance - which a lot of ST holders round me missed as they had left.

The PL have to recognise declining gates are a response to many different aspects of the game. Our last two home games, Arsenal and Sheff Utd, have done nothing to stimulate interest and it's a long time since the Liverpool game, which was a real match. You cannot keep serving up rubbish, overcharging for it and then claiming the PL is the greatest league in the world. Fans aren't mugs and have other things to do on a Saturday afternoon.

I saw little yesterday to make me want to go back.

PS - these remarks are about the PL, not Blackburn Rovers. We have to understand the majority are not committed fans, the PL has been blinded by it's own PR machine, it is not a great competition. It is a meaningless competition with 16 clubs competing for next year's prize of £30 million or more, the competition is to stay up, not win the bloody thing. Just what does this tell the casual fan? We want to entertain you, we want to win the league or we are desperate to earn that £30m? No prizes for the correct answer.

....and when one thinks about the remarks many fans make about league position etc it's clear even some of the committed have been blinded by the cash on offer.

Paul I usually always agree with you on the majority of stuff but I'm really surprised at the level of your disenchantment with the Premier League.

Within any League there'll always be teams that are a lot better than others, just because we aren't one of the four top sides isn't a reason to trash the product as a whole. For the twenty one years I watched us when we were ouside the Premiership we weren't usually in the top four in those divisions either. There does seem to me to be quite a lot of "If we can't win the League this season - I'm taking my bat and ball home!" about it.

I can't agree with your assessments of the Arsenal and Sheff Utd games either. I thought Arsenal played absolutely superb football with 10 men and yesterday I thought Sheff Utd. played to their strengths extremely well, were the better side on the day and probably deserved to win.

Generally I think the PL is an extremely competitive product. Now and then you get sides like Swindon, Sunderland or Watford ( ) that aren't particularly competitive but by and large you still know that on any given afternoon any side can beat any other. I think we've still got a long way to go before it's like the SPL when you know Celtic and/or Rangers are going to win nearly every game by 3 or 4 clear goals.

I guess we all wish we were back in 1992-5 when Uncle Jack could blow ManUre out of the water in terms of spending power but I think it's actually a testament to the Premier League when Clubs with smaller fanbases like us and Bolton can compete so successfully (I.e. Uefa Cup qualification or maybe even that elusive 4th spot) thanks primarily to the place and TV money.

[M-K]

Within any League there'll always be teams that are a lot better than others, just because we aren't one of the four top sides isn't a reason to trash the product as a whole. For the twenty one years I watched us when we were ouside the Premiership we weren't usually in the top four in those divisions either.

You could always dream, though.

[RevidgeBlue]

You could always dream, though.

Even though we're not going to win the League in the immediate future, we now have a realistic chance of picking up a Cup or two along the way - there's no "dreaming" required!

On the other hand, if we'd have made it up into Div 1 pre Jack via the play offs all those times we just missed out, we'd have had far less chance of surviving, let alone being competitive than now.

Without the modern day TV and place money we really would have known the meaning of an unequal struggle.

[Jan]

I think we've still got a long way to go before it's like the SPL when you know Celtic and/or Rangers are going to win nearly every game by 3 or 4 clear goals.

NOt this season. Rangers are fighting it out with 2 clubs for 2nd!

[Fife Rover]

Even though we're not going to win the League in the immediate future, we now have a realistic chance of picking up a Cup or two along the way - there's no "dreaming" required!

On the other hand, if we'd have made it up into Div 1 pre Jack via the play offs all those times we just missed out, we'd have had far less chance of surviving, let alone being competitive than now.

Without the modern day TV and place money we really would have known the meaning of an unequal struggle.

I realise that most of you have not been around long enough to remember the first time after WW2 that Rovers actually achieved promotion by finishing 2nd in Div 2. This happened in 1958, and Rovers did very well in Div 1 until of course in 1961 the players won the abolition of the maximum wage. From that moment on there was no longer a level playing field whereby all clubs competed on an equal footing. It was just a matter of time before all the top players (which up to then had been pretty well evenly distributed) finished up at a handful of "Big Clubs" and clubs like Rovers and PNE, Blackpool and Burnley etc etc were bound to get relegated and have little or no chance of ever making it back to the top flight. Rovers lasted until 1966 in Div 1 and mostly held their own but it was noticeable that as time went on after 1961 the decline was getting worse and worse in spite of Rovers keeping their most loyal players Clayton and Douglas.

Of course some "small clubs" like Bolton would occasionally make it back to the top flight, after all some team had to win the 2nd Div every season, but more often than not it would be one of the clubs that had been relegated from Div 1 in the fairly recent past. And so it was from the mid 60's onward, until the formation of the EPL and luckily for Rovers the "saviour figure" of Jack Walker.

[stuwilky]

Generally I think the PL is an extremely competitive product.

Simon.

Could you name the top 4 prior to the start of the season?

What about the bottom 5 - could you have picked 4 of them?

How about who'd be fighting it out for the Euro slots?

Cup finalists? - time will tell.

Competitive isnt a word I would describe the Premier League these days.

[philipl]

One interesting by-product of the new TV deal will be the playing field will become a lot more even.

The EPL will dwarf the CL even interms of value.

However, the merchandising/media power of the big 4 will be the biggest driver of inequality and for that we have our friends in the media to blame.

Sky and the rest have to understand they bought a product with 20 teams in it, not just 4. If they don't wake up to that reality, they are peeing on their own cash.

[American]

It's a self-fulfilling prophacy some days, I think. I tend to be more willing to watch Chelsea, United and Arsenal when they are on, because I know the entertainment value will be higher. One reason why the entertainment value will be higher is because they have a higher class of players, because they can afford to buy better players. One reason they can afford to buy better players is because they make more money because people want to watch them more. It's a vicious circle.

As for which league I'd rather watch, I've gotten a chance this season to watch more La Liga matches and I'd much rather watch them than the average Premiership match. I also get a chance to watch Serie A, but never turn that on because the few times I have it's total boredom. Reading is one of the few Premiership clubs (along with the other 3 already mentioned) I will watch when Rovers are not on. I'm getting tired just thinking of watching Boro or Bolton.

[RevidgeBlue]

Simon.

Could you name the top 4 prior to the start of the season?

What about the bottom 5 - could you have picked 4 of them?

How about who'd be fighting it out for the Euro slots?

Cup finalists? - time will tell.

Competitive isnt a word I would describe the Premier League these days.

1) Yes. But over the course of a 38, 40, or 42 game season the best teams always tend to rise to the top anyway. Always have done. As things stand at this precise moment little old Bolton have a perfectly realistic chance of finishing in the top 4.

2) I certainly wouldn't have put West Ham anywhere near the bottom 3 places. I'm not certain I'd have had Charlton down there either. Sheffield United I suspect have confounded neutrals with how well they've done.

3) Certainly wouldn't have had Reading and Portsmouth in 6th and seventh! When positions 5-7 are filled by Bolton, Reading and Portsmouth respectively I think it's a sure sign anyone can prosper under the right on field management regardless of financial muscle.

[stuwilky]

1) Yes. But over the course of a 38, 40, or 42 game season the best teams always tend to rise to the top anyway. Always have done. As things stand at this precise moment little old Bolton have a perfectly realistic chance of finishing in the top 4.

2) I certainly wouldn't have put West Ham anywhere near the bottom 3 places. I'm not certain I'd have had Charlton down there either. Sheffield United I suspect have confounded neutrals with how well they've done.

3) Certainly wouldn't have had Reading and Portsmouth in 6th and seventh! When positions 5-7 are filled by Bolton, Reading and Portsmouth respectively I think it's a sure sign anyone can prosper under the right on field management regardless of financial muscle.

So, judging by these responses, the best this competitive league can hope for is maybe a surprise in the top 5? and perhaps one relegation shock.

Aye, its exceptionally competitive that one.

[thenodrog]

I realise that most of you have not been around long enough to remember the first time after WW2 that Rovers actually achieved promotion by finishing 2nd in Div 2. This happened in 1958, and Rovers did very well in Div 1 until of course in 1961 the players won the abolition of the maximum wage. From that moment on there was no longer a level playing field whereby all clubs competed on an equal footing. It was just a matter of time before all the top players (which up to then had been pretty well evenly distributed) finished up at a handful of "Big Clubs" and clubs like Rovers and PNE, Blackpool and Burnley etc etc were bound to get relegated and have little or no chance of ever making it back to the top flight. Rovers lasted until 1966 in Div 1 and mostly held their own but it was noticeable that as time went on after 1961 the decline was getting worse and worse in spite of Rovers keeping their most loyal players Clayton and Douglas.

Of course some "small clubs" like Bolton would occasionally make it back to the top flight, after all some team had to win the 2nd Div every season, but more often than not it would be one of the clubs that had been relegated from Div 1 in the fairly recent past. And so it was from the mid 60's onward, until the formation of the EPL and luckily for Rovers the "saviour figure" of Jack Walker.

Reading between the lines Fife it sounds like you are confirming that the only way forward now is to merge a few of those little clubs!

Simon.

Could you name the top 4 prior to the start of the season?

What about the bottom 5 - could you have picked 4 of them?

How about who'd be fighting it out for the Euro slots?

Cup finalists? - time will tell.

Competitive isnt a word I would describe the Premier League these days.

Competative isn't a word that described the old 1st Div either! The same old top 4 etc could be named with a degree of confidence every year for the past 30-40.

[RevidgeBlue]

I realise that most of you have not been around long enough to remember the first time after WW2 that Rovers actually achieved promotion by finishing 2nd in Div 2. This happened in 1958, and Rovers did very well in Div 1 until of course in 1961 the players won the abolition of the maximum wage. From that moment on there was no longer a level playing field whereby all clubs competed on an equal footing. It was just a matter of time before all the top players (which up to then had been pretty well evenly distributed) finished up at a handful of "Big Clubs" and clubs like Rovers and PNE, Blackpool and Burnley etc etc were bound to get relegated and have little or no chance of ever making it back to the top flight. Rovers lasted until 1966 in Div 1 and mostly held their own but it was noticeable that as time went on after 1961 the decline was getting worse and worse in spite of Rovers keeping their most loyal players Clayton and Douglas.

Of course some "small clubs" like Bolton would occasionally make it back to the top flight, after all some team had to win the 2nd Div every season, but more often than not it would be one of the clubs that had been relegated from Div 1 in the fairly recent past. And so it was from the mid 60's onward, until the formation of the EPL and luckily for Rovers the "saviour figure" of Jack Walker.

The difference now is, that Premier League Clubs are at a huge financial advantage to most other Clubs worldwide and there's an awful lot of good players around the world to go between 20 clubs.

They can't all play for the top 4.

[thenodrog]

Well in the light of that EIT, I apologise. The target of my little outburst was not aimed at people like yourself that genuinely consider the REAL needs of people "out there", but more at the drum banging, loud mouthed, uncaring, ad-men that literally shriek at you from your TV screen all the time. And the underhand methods used to target vulnerable people into spending far more money than they cam afford without getting themselves into serious difficulties. Believe me, if you have ever had to deal with some of the heart rending cases I have seen you would understand. Then when people like Theno come on, with his I can afford it so why can't you? approach it really gets me going.

Care to comment on line 1 of my signature Fife?

btw......you must know Fife that BRFC have had numerous offers out this season to watch matches 'on the cheap', and all of em (except the Bolton match when they brought an unusually large away following) were a disaster in terms of attracting long lost fans and proved a slap in the face to the club.

imo It's not price it's that people hold different views of what they value as entertainment. There are simply too many punters out there who have 'bought the prem T'shirt' and now want something else.

I could have enjoyed myself more doing something else yesterday. How much longer I bother remains to be seen. If I stop that will be four STs that stop.

Yours is obviously a very democratic household Paul....... not!

[colin]

However, the merchandising/media power of the big 4 will be the biggest driver of inequality and for that we have our friends in the media to blame.

A very pertinant point. After Wednesday's game against Chelsea I scavanged collegues' copies of The Times, The Daily Telegraph and The Guardian for match reports. Each of them reported on the game as Chelsea v another team.

It really didn't matter that it was us, it could have been Villa or Manchester City or Middlesbrough. It simply didn't matter, they just did not care. The match report was on Chelsea.

Just as worrying was MOTD where, apart from a ten second clip of an interview with MH, all the post match discussion was about Chelsea and Cole knackering himself.

I know that we have this "small town in Europe" mentality, and that we are not one of the London clubs and that we are not one of the big clubs in the north west, but by Christ we are there in the great ugly money-spinning whore that is known as "The Premiership" and just perhaps we (like Villa & City & Boro) deserve a bit more respect.

[Tris]

I'm not tired of watching Rovers but I am tired of watching the PL. The truth is modern football is poor entertainment and very poor value for money, there is no chance of winning the league so what is the point? I gave up watching football on TV many years ago

I could have enjoyed myself more doing something else yesterday. How much longer I bother remains to be seen. If I stop that will be four STs that stop.

Well you probably haven't had your money's worth this season. Back to a point Paul made in his first post about the other 16 clubs: despite an deceptively successful sounding 9th position, Rovers have won only 6 PL home games out of 13, which is less than half, and in that we were lucky to beat Sheff Utd, Wigan, and even City, and have scored a pathetic 1.2 goals per game. Rarely if ever this season have Rovers turned up for both halves of a home game.

Imagine being a regular cinema goer and over half of the films were poor, and of the rest, half of each film was boring, rescued only by an exciting last 5 mins or a cameo performance by a star, oh, and the price had gone up 600% in ten years; would attendances be rising?

I can't relate to any of the above comments. Paul - if modern football is such poor entertainment how come the TV income continues to spiral?? If the product was as poor as you claim, viewing figures would be on the slide and the paymasters would be throwing their lucre in other directions.

You may have given up watching footy on TV many years ago, but clearly you're in a minority. You may choose to give up the 4 season tickets - but your thousand quid won't be missed in a season when Rovers will bank an extra £10 million.

You guys can play the "I'm tired of the PL" and "Rovers don't win enough to justify ticket prices" cards as much as you want - but the rest of the world has left you both miles behind - and most of that world adores watching the product you are slagging off.

If you want value for money football then get down the local park - it's free and you don't need a satellite feed. I did this afternoon and saw two games at once (Perivale, pitch 7 and pitch 8) - and I ignored the first half of Spurs v Man U on TV because I was stood on real grass (or rather sh!t) watching real park football. And it's bloody competitive too!!

That option is available to every single person on this MB - and there's plenty in between that lowest form and the TV hyped highest form ... (eg - Accy, Morecambe, Lancaster (just), Clitheroe, Darwen, etc, etc - if a few more had supported GH then maybe they'd still be in business.

But everyone on here has chosen to follow the Rovers - a team operating in the highest possible echelon they could be. Possibly the 30th richest team in the world. A team about to play Leverkusen in a European competition having already seen off the cream of Austria, Poland, Switzerland, France and Holland.

A team playing in the richest and best league in the world.

If you guys don't like all that - - - - - Clitheroe vs Brigg town, tickets on the door, Saturday 24th. Apparently the best mushy peas in the North West. I'll be there cos Rovers aren't playing til Sunday - but if you guys are so disillusioned with the PL then this could be the start of something beautiful and new for you!!!

[Exiled in Toronto]

I can't relate to any of the above comments. Paul - if modern football is such poor entertainment how come the TV income continues to spiral?? If the product was as poor as you claim, viewing figures would be on the slide and the paymasters would be throwing their lucre in other directions.

In my personal experience, the extra TV money is coming from making it CHEAPER to watch, and then attracting a far wider audience. I get 3 live games a weekend for nowt, and another two or maybe three per week on a channel that costs me 2 quid a month. It is in the TV companies interest to attract the maximum number of viewers because that is what they sell to advertisers.

I am happy to watch Spurs - Man Yoo for 20p, very happy in fact on a day when it was -25 deg C, and I expect many other Canadians did so too, and FoxSportsWorld probably have jacked up their advertising rates, which partly makes its way into BRFC finances, and then the player pockets. Nothing to do with it being better than it used to be or worth 30 quid a throw to be there live.

Let's face it Trus, as somone who commutes to Rovers games from London and goes to the European aways, you are probably on the more committed end of the scale. Not everyone would have the same priorities.

[Jan]

Especially not those who just live round the corner, it would seem.

[dillo_dillo]

That Sun table ranks clubs by prices of the most expensive season tickets on offer and Rovers come round about middle on that basis.

is this story?

"Fans fight back at game prices "

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007050819,00.html

I Can't read that price comparing list!!

It's So small pict! good for nothing SUN!

[trueblue]

I Can't read that price comparing list!!

It's So small pict! good for nothing SUN!

Click on the pic... it opens in it's own window

[stuwilky]

If you guys don't like all that - - - - - Clitheroe vs Brigg town, tickets on the door, Saturday 24th.

Think Im visiting FCUnited that day.

Give my regards to Reyno though.

[Paul]

I started a long response to the points you raise, till I realised you've summed it up in one sentence.

You may choose to give up the 4 season tickets - but your thousand quid won't be missed in a season when Rovers will bank an extra £10 million.

Thanks Tris. This is the whole point. The PL doesn't give two hoots about the live football fan. That I've paid my ST money for 25 seasons, through thick and thin, when the club really needed the cash, is utterly irrelevant to the PL other than if the atmosphere is poor this may impact viewing figures. If Paul and the kids stop going it will not matter one jot. I feel much, much better about it now.

You guys can play the "I'm tired of the PL" and "Rovers don't win enough to justify ticket prices" cards as much as you want - but the rest of the world has left you both miles behind - and most of that world adores watching the product you are slagging off.

I'm not talking about Blackburn Rovers not winning enough games. Until EIT mentioned it I hadn't considered this, I think we are having a successful season. I was discussing why fans are turning away from the live game. The reason is simple, the TV fan is served up with the cream while the live fan is left to admire the defensive qualities of Sheffield United. There is a vast difference but as you say "your thousand quid won't be missed"...but will my support?

It was great walking away from Ewood on Saturday, all the chat was about the fantastic defensive display from Warnock's team. Several fans I spoke with suggested they might go to Bramhall Lane when Rovers are away.

[SuperStella]

moan moan moan....... we won didnt we.

[dillo_dillo]

Click on the pic... it opens in it's own window

Not working on my PC.... How come?

[CAPT KAYOS]

I started a long response to the points you raise, till I realised you've summed it up in one sentence.

Thanks Tris. This is the whole point. The PL doesn't give two hoots about the live football fan. That I've paid my ST money for 25 seasons, through thick and thin, when the club really needed the cash, is utterly irrelevant to the PL other than if the atmosphere is poor this may impact viewing figures. If Paul and the kids stop going it will not matter one jot. I feel much, much better about it now.

I'm not talking about Blackburn Rovers not winning enough games. Until EIT mentioned it I hadn't considered this, I think we are having a successful season. I was discussing why fans are turning away from the live game. The reason is simple, the TV fan is served up with the cream while the live fan is left to admire the defensive qualities of Sheffield United. There is a vast difference but as you say "your thousand quid won't be missed"...but will my support?

It was great walking away from Ewood on Saturday, all the chat was about the fantastic defensive display from Warnock's team. Several fans I spoke with suggested they might go to Bramhall Lane when Rovers are away.

Beat me to it there Paul as I was about to defend your posts.

Tris I'm confused in what you are trying to say here as you hit on a point telling Paul you can't relate to his comments yet offer him with the should we say 'pie n peas' sort of ambience. To me this is part of what he is trying to highlight ie Its about the experience of it all ie two teams playing a game of football, the crack , the banter, talking points, maybe a beer a three before and after the match (depending on your tendencies), meeting your mates getting away from the Mrs or rugrats, family day out, a hobby, the highs and lows etc in other words th whole experience of the day be it at home or away or on the local mudbath.

As Pauls says , its not BRFC he is getiing bored of - but Football in general.

The game overall has become boring,, cheating, stagnant, sanitised, over commercialised/over exposed etc which may work for the TV viewer due to the other aspects that go on , replays proving points etc but to the TV world that's is what it is -just another made up soap opera on the box.

The whole aspect of it being a sporting and competitive event is giving in to manufactured 'screen entertainment' and to make a quick buck to boot.

[BuckyRover]

It's almost become like Wrestling. 'Sports - Entertainment'

It has already been decided who is going to win before the fight takes place.