[Archived] Three Cheers For John Williams

[Tris]

In my personal experience, the extra TV money is coming from making it CHEAPER to watch, and then attracting a far wider audience.

Unfortunately that won't be the case for UK residents when the new deal kicks in. The fact that two subsciptions (Sky and Setanta) will be needed in order to watch what is currently available from one broadcaster means that in % terms the cost of watching live PL football will rocket.

Thanks EU muppets.

[RevidgeBlue]

It's almost become like Wrestling. 'Sports - Entertainment'

It has already been decided who is going to win before the fight takes place.

Now, that's a very good point - certainly as far as the media are concerned.

As Colin has said already, any coverage is outrageously slanted towards "the big 4"

Any match in which Chelski/ManUre/Arsenal/Liverpool aren't two or three goals up or are losing automatically becomes "a poor match which hasn't really got going yet"

However if you're able to take all that kind of stuff with a barrowload of salt I still think the Premier League as a whole is a very good product. The two or three best teams in the League will always be significantly better than the rest no matter what you do.

And I'm not sure it should be any other way. Who'd want to watch a League with 20 Middlesbrough's?

I certainly wouldn't even though theoretically it might give us a better chance of winning something.

[Exiled in Toronto]

The game overall has become boring,, cheating, stagnant, sanitised, over commercialised/over exposed etc which may work for the TV viewer due to the other aspects that go on , replays proving points etc but to the TV world that's is what it is -just another made up soap opera on the box.

The whole aspect of it being a sporting and competitive event is giving in to manufactured 'screen entertainment' and to make a quick buck to boot.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. It is very different watching on TV than live. Trying to decide if Ronaldo dived yesterday with the help of 17 different replays was interesting and worth the 20p alone. Being there live is, or was, a shared emotional rollercoaster where whether he dived or not is incidental to your total enjoyment of the day.

Two things have changed in recent years. Firstly, there is a market of tens if not hundreds of millions of people who will pay between 20p and nothing to watch the former, and the market forces of TV companies selling viewers eyeballs to advertisers ensures that a fortune is paid for it.

Secondly, the shared emotional rollercoaster is now virtually a thing of the past. No standing, no ref/player baiting, no pre-match fans singing at each other, no choice who you're next to, no passion. I'm not surprised all you lot are revelling in the Euro trips, it's the last bastion of that shared experience.

With the TV version, the quality has gone up and the price, for all but the UK it seems, has come down. Contrast that with the live version, where the experience has diminished and the price gone up. No surprise then that the TV version is booming and the real version struggling.

[daren]

It's almost become like Wrestling. 'Sports - Entertainment'

It has already been decided who is going to win before the fight takes place.

Now, that's a very good point - certainly as far as the media are concerned.

As Colin has said already, any coverage is outrageously slanted towards "the big 4"

Any match in which Chelski/ManUre/Arsenal/Liverpool aren't two or three goals up or are losing automatically becomes "a poor match which hasn't really got going yet"

However if you're able to take all that kind of stuff with a barrowload of salt I still think the Premier League as a whole is a very good product. The two or three best teams in the League will always be significantly better than the rest no matter what you do.

And I'm not sure it should be any other way. Who'd want to watch a League with 20 Middlesbrough's?

I certainly wouldn't even though theoretically it might give us a better chance of winning something.

Great point, I certainly wouldn't!

The point is that the overall winner might be from a small set, but it still, on a given day, retains the power to surprise. Chelsea beaten off the park by Liverpool, who we got 4 points off this year. West Ham 1 - 0 Manchester United. Reading 1 - 1 Manchester United. Sheffield United 1 - 0 Arsenal, us doing the double over ManUre last year. Chelsea losing at Fulham. In fact, it appears that the ONLY foregone conclusion is that Chelsea will not lose at home!

It's certainly no WWE, that's a fact. There'd be more fireworks, horrible mingers with giant fake boobies and flashing lights if it were (although the music would be better ). As long as it retains the power to surprise I'll watch it.

And if we're talking about foregone conclusions, someone mentioned La Liga being more entertaining. Well, it is. And Barcelona or Real Madrid will win in 2 years out of 3 (google cache as the main link isn't working) from the inception of La Liga in 1928. Only 9 teams have EVER won La Liga in 74 years. The Premiership is still quite young by those standards.

Some teams will always be richer than others. Fact of life. I thought things were improving until Roman Abramovich sent the wages and transfer fees on their upward spiral again, after they had started dropping again. Bear in mind that Arsenal, horrible youth snatching tossers that they are, had a low net spend over their successful past ten years.

There just needs to be a way of getting the atmosphere back into the stadiums, whatever the answer (I personally like seating because I'm lazy). So it's not all doom and gloom

[Fife Rover]

Now, that's a very good point - certainly as far as the media are concerned.

As Colin has said already, any coverage is outrageously slanted towards "the big 4"

Any match in which Chelski/ManUre/Arsenal/Liverpool aren't two or three goals up or are losing automatically becomes "a poor match which hasn't really got going yet"

However if you're able to take all that kind of stuff with a barrowload of salt I still think the Premier League as a whole is a very good product. The two or three best teams in the League will always be significantly better than the rest no matter what you do.

And I'm not sure it should be any other way. Who'd want to watch a League with 20 Middlesbrough's?I certainly wouldn't even though theoretically it might give us a better chance of winning something.

No but with 1 Rovers and 19 Middlesborough's, Rovers would win everything!!

[only2garners]

With the TV version, the quality has gone up and the price, for all but the UK it seems, has come down.

Actually TV audiences in the UK are down this season as well as live audiences, suggesting a boredom or saturation with the product. It can't be cost for TV as this season is pretty much the same cost as last. It may be that internationally TV audiences are booming, evidenced by the recent increased rights deal, but that's not the case in the home market. That may be due to new audiences to whom it's still a novelty or the fact that most of these new audiences support one of the big 4 anyway.

[Tris]

I started a long response to the points you raise, till I realised you've summed it up in one sentence.

Thanks Tris. This is the whole point. The PL doesn't give two hoots about the live football fan. That I've paid my ST money for 25 seasons, through thick and thin, when the club really needed the cash, is utterly irrelevant to the PL other than if the atmosphere is poor this may impact viewing figures. If Paul and the kids stop going it will not matter one jot. I feel much, much better about it now.

...

I'm not talking about Blackburn Rovers not winning enough games. Until EIT mentioned it I hadn't considered this, I think we are having a successful season. I was discussing why fans are turning away from the live game. The reason is simple, the TV fan is served up with the cream while the live fan is left to admire the defensive qualities of Sheffield United. There is a vast difference but as you say "your thousand quid won't be missed"...but will my support?

Hope you didn't take my point in the wrong way Paul - however in the context of your comments (in red below), I was simply saying take it or leave it - and if the latter then there are plenty of alternatives (such as Clitheroe).

You seemed so full of negative thoughts that it seemed kind to offer you a way out of your Rovers watching nightmare!!!

And to be fair to Sky, the TV product they offer doesn't stop at "the cream". Last Monday I watched Oxford United v Rushton and Diamonds from the Conference, tonight it's Scunthorpe v Bristol City in League 1, and next Monday Doncaster v Crewe in the Johnstone's Paint Trophy.

Today's match was meaningless for many.

I spent the whole second half wishing the game would end. It was awful

You cannot keep serving up rubbish, overcharging for it and then claiming the PL is the greatest league in the world. Fans aren't mugs and have other things to do on a Saturday afternoon.

I saw little yesterday to make me want to go back.

PS - these remarks are about the PL, not Blackburn Rovers. We have to understand the majority are not committed fans, the PL has been blinded by it's own PR machine, it is not a great competition. It is a meaningless competition with 16 clubs competing for next year's prize of £30 million or more, the competition is to stay up, not win the bloody thing.

Again, the PL is the product which is in front of you. It certainly isn't meaningless - no more than the old top division used to be. The 14 seasons of PL football have seen 4 winners, the 14 seasons before PL football saw only 5 winners. (PL = 8 x Man U, 3 x Arsenal, 2 x Chelsea, 1 x Rovers // Old 1st = 8 x Lpool, 2 x Arsenal, 2 x Everton, 1 x Villa, 1 x Leeds).

Whilst you might not like the protagonists, you can't pretend that the title race is any less interesting this season than in days gone by - with the potential to develop into a thriller like the amazing tussle and last day drama between Liverpool and Arsenal in 1989.

There's more cash around these days, and sure there are issues the clubs have to face to keep walk on punters happy. But to try and pretend that the PL is the root of all evil is to find problems that aren't there.

Beat me to it there Paul as I was about to defend your posts.

Tris I'm confused in what you are trying to say here as you hit on a point telling Paul you can't relate to his comments yet offer him with the should we say 'pie n peas' sort of ambience. To me this is part of what he is trying to highlight ie Its about the experience of it all ie two teams playing a game of football

...

As Pauls says , its not BRFC he is getiing bored of - but Football in general.

I can't relate to his comments in red above - certainly can't! So offered him an alternative away from the nasty Premier League, away from the hype and the TV cash, in the shape of Clitheroe fc!

[CAPT KAYOS]

I can't relate to his comments in red above - certainly can't! So offered him an alternative away from the nasty Premier League, away from the hype and the TV cash, in the shape of Clitheroe fc!

Cheers Tris

Sort of thought that but then got confused again which is not hard ... don't know what it is but I read Paul's mails in a different context I think to most which is why I tend to agree with him alot.

There seems to me like alot of points that get raised then get confused and mixed as if people think others are having a go at the club when its totally opposite and the reality is its Football rather than the Rovers ... then everything goes off on a tangent for a while.

[Roar of the Rover]

I had earlier posted on this topic about the guy at the ticket office who charged me and adult ticket for the price of a junior.

So i went back today and guess who was there? the same guy.

I asked for his Manager and he asked' whats this regarding'? i said its none of your business, he knew it was about him so he went to his supervisor and gave his side of the story.

I told her my side of the story and she said that i should've challenged him at the ticket office.

How stupid is that?

They wanted me to argue when theres a massive que leading towards the Club Shop and just 15 mins before kick off???

She refused to give me a refund, What do people think is should do, i am first going to see the Ticket Office Manager and if she does'nt sort it out do you think i should go higher as in John Willams etc?

I travel up and down this counrty to follow the lads in Blue 'n' White and this is how they treat there fans?

[thenodrog]

IShe refused to give me a refund, What do people think is should do, i am first going to see the Ticket Office Manager and if she does'nt sort it out do you think i should go higher as in John Willams etc?

I travel up and down this counrty to follow the lads in Blue 'n' White and this is how they treat there fans?

read this first............... http://www.rovers.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Cus...,,10303,00.html

[thenodrog]

In reply to Theno's post criticising Paul's points:

Secondly; it is of no use people like Theno with a "money is no object" attitude trying to put down the points raised by people like Paul and myself. The impression I get when I read Theno's arguments on this subject are:What are you moaning and complaining about? It is simply market forces at work. Get used to it! If it is too dear for you, then tough; get a better paid job! That if I may say so is a typical Marketing Man's attitude, and demonstrates perfectly their greedy and selfish outlook on life. What do I care if you can't afford my products; there are plenty that can and I will have their money off them whether they can really afford it or not. I will persuade them that they cannot live without this product.

What an attitude! No wonder there are so many people in debt today. These Marketeers exploit your perfectly natural wants and desires and convince you that if you dont have these things then you are "out of step/fashion" and therefore some kind of failure. Tipyfied by the song "I want it all, and I want it now". probably written by a Marketing Man.

Right Fife I've just looked it up and a half year ST for yourself in the Riverside (inner and covered) would amount to £7.50 per match. So....

1. Do you begrudge paying that every fortnight for top level football entertainment?

and

2. What would you think is a reasonable amount for you to pay?

btw Whingeing about living a long way off and transport costs is irrelevent and not allowed to be included in this instance. The issue is about pricing.

[Paul]

Hope you didn't take my point in the wrong way Paul

No not at all, we know each others thoughts well enough to be able to discuss the issue.

As Capt Kayos says the majority see this as an anti-Rovers stance. This is not the case. I was welling up with emotion at Dunny's reception. I'm off to Leverkusen next week and I'm so excited it's almost kids Christmas again.

The problem the PL is so predictable, I didn't go to Ewood with that "we must win feeling" I simply turned up to watch a football match, one which truned out to be another dire affair. I won't quote the rest of your post individually but I'm not excited by the title race. For Rovers fans it's meaningless. We need to regain the excitment, and it's nowt to do with age, the anticipation, and the PL does not provide that. I'm excited by the prospect of Bolton away in the cup, though God knows how I'll get there, but I'm not even thinking about the PL game a few weeks later. These are my frustrations and I'm being honest about them. Many fans complain about cost and give this as the reason for stopping. I don't believe this to be true in every case, I think it's an excuse. My original post was to put forward what i felt after Saturday and what I think may explain why some, if not all, fans are staying away.

[Fife Rover]

Right Fife I've just looked it up and a half year ST for yourself in the Riverside (inner and covered) would amount to £7.50 per match. So....

1. Do you begrudge paying that every fortnight for top level football entertainment?

and

2. What would you think is a reasonable amount for you to pay?

btw Whingeing about living a long way off and transport costs is irrelevent and not allowed to be included in this instance. The issue is about pricing.

Absolutely reasonable and fair. If I lived anywhere within say a 50 mile radius of Ewood I would already have one. Further than that if I lived within said radius, I would already have a full season ticket. As I have said many times before My problem is firstly the difficulty in travelling by public transport and the added costs of a necessary overnight stay. Just over £100 for each and every match ( including the match ticket).

It is, as you well know, quite impossible not to include the overall costs, because without a magic carpet how am I going to get there. It would make no difference if the admission to Ewood Park was free!

[den]

This might help your argument Fife.

[Billinge End Blue]

<<Secondly, the shared emotional rollercoaster is now virtually a thing of the past. No standing, no ref/player baiting, no pre-match fans singing at each other, no choice who you're next to, no passion. I'm not surprised all you lot are revelling in the Euro trips, it's the last bastion of that shared experience. >> EIT

Sums up a major aspect of the Ewood Park home attendance issue that Tris/Jan etc tend to ignore when berating the local stayaway fans (on the grounds of parsimony and idleness alone).

I fear the 'goal music' heard on Saturday is yet another nail in the coffin for the more traditional supporter experience...

[CAPT KAYOS]

Right Fife I've just looked it up and a half year ST for yourself in the Riverside (inner and covered) would amount to £7.50 per match. So....

1. Do you begrudge paying that every fortnight for top level football entertainment?

and

2. What would you think is a reasonable amount for you to pay?

btw Whingeing about living a long way off and transport costs is irrelevent and not allowed to be included in this instance. The issue is about pricing.

TND , here you go again with the responses to prove the cost. As I have said before its not all about the money - it could be £1 a game and still there would be people who could not afford to go.

There's alot more to it, cost may be the major issue but its not just a one off for many, and people have to weigh up other stuff before deciding on whether it is justified to attend a football match ie vfm.

It maybe the case that that's it, and fans have to put up with it ( which is the side you appear to have fell to) but alot are not- hence the stayaways and non attendees.

Football is losing its appeal big time and its the ones still staying loyal that are raising their worries , but even some of the more loyal prepared to pay the prices etc are turning their backs on the game not due to the prices but the whole turgid affair with the game

Discussions on this started on here about 3 seasons ago re the impact of the money from TV and it going straight out of the game into players/agents pockets etc and how it was beginning to lose its identity especially to the fans as a sport, now the signs are finally beginning to show all is not well and at last worry at least some of the people who could make a difference.

[Fife Rover]

TND , here you go again with the responses to prove the cost. As I have said before its not all about the money - it could be £1 a game and still there would be people who could not afford to go.

There's alot more to it, cost may be the major issue but its not just a one off for many, and people have to weigh up other stuff before deciding on whether it is justified to attend a football match ie vfm.

It maybe the case that that's it, and fans have to put up with it ( which is the side you appear to have fell to) but alot are not- hence the stayaways and non attendees.

Football is losing its appeal big time and its the ones still staying loyal that are raising their worries , but even some of the more loyal prepared to pay the prices etc are turning their backs on the game not due to the prices but the whole turgid affair with the game

Discussions on this started on here about 3 seasons ago re the impact of the money from TV and it going straight out of the game into players/agents pockets etc and how it was beginning to lose its identity especially to the fans as a sport, now the signs are finally beginning to show all is not well and at last worry at least some of the people who could make a difference.

Well said Capt. There are some people who never have to worry about money, budgets etc, and just can't get their heads round the problem. They seem to think that we are all profligates!

[thenodrog]

Football is losing its appeal big time and its the ones still staying loyal that are raising their worries , but even some of the more loyal prepared to pay the prices etc are turning their backs on the game not due to the prices but the whole turgid affair with the game

Well said Capt. There are some people who never have to worry about money, budgets etc, and just can't get their heads round the problem. They seem to think that we are all profligates!

Kayos is far more accurate than you Fife. Your posts are confused. You state that BRFC is'nt expensive but that travel is! Crikey just what are BRFC supposed to do about that? Send a 24/7 taxi up for you free of charge?

Anyway Kayos obviously the Walker induced euphoria has now worn off and the supporters of this club need a good long 30 year stretch in the 2nd/3rd Divisions to re-assess their situation and their priorities. Nah thats euphamistic.....What I really mean is to die off!

[Fife Rover]

Kayos is far more accurate than you Fife. Your posts are confused. You state that BRFC is'nt expensive but that travel is! Crikey just what are BRFC supposed to do about that? Send a 24/7 taxi up for you free of charge?

Me confused? I think you are far more confused than I have ever been Theno. You posed a stupid question of me which I answered sensibly. Look at it again before coming out with nonsense like this.

Now tell me where I have ever suggested either directly or indirectly that anyone should be paying for me to attend Ewood. I have always maintained that I would have a S/T if I lived within 50 miles, and the only thing that reduces my visits to Ewood to around 3 or 4 per season is the EXTRA costs of travel by public transport and the necessity to stay overnight. The cost of admission to the JW Upper in itself is not and never has been a problem for me. The OVERALL cost of the visit (£100+) IS!!!!

Maybe to you £100+ is just a casual night out ? To me it is a very significant part of my monthly budget, and I don't intend to blow it or get into debt to keep you happy!!!

[Blue blood]

Have to say that many of the points Paul makes hit the mark.

One difference for me is that whilst at the Sheffield Utd game it mattered a heck of a lot, I wanted the win so badly. That it probably won't make much difference in terms of where we finish etc really doesn't matter, being at the game really brought out the must win and competitiveness in me, as it does in every game I attend.

However when watching match of the day - or big 4 tv - the futility of the premier league really became apparent and really dampened my enthusiasm for football. There is no way that any team other than the big 4 will get anywhere near winning the title. Or probably the FA Cup for that matter - last time one of the big 4 didn't win it was back when we won the premiership. To me that is gutting, that you can pretty much guarentee the top 4 places year in year out, that the majority of teams don't have a hope in hell of getting anywhere near the prize. I know there'll always be favourites and underdogs, but the way it is at the moment is that the underdogs have not even a glimmer of a chance. Perhaps even more disheartening is that it looks as if the situation will continue as the big 4 continue to milk the revenues from the champions league thus continuing to widen the gap. I know all eras have more dominant/stronger teams but over time this tends to change. With the current set up I can't see that happening.

I'm not saying I expect rovers to be challenging for top 4 every season (although it was nice) but I'd like to have the impression that if we played well enough week in week out we, or any other team bar Burnley, could get close to winning the competition. Knowing that your best won't be good enough - and having it rubbed in your face by the media - is so disheartening. Now I go fairly regularly and will continue to do so regardless of rovers position and performances, and will get so worked up wanting rovers to win when I go, but if I'm disheartened through watching MOTD and the like what is it going to do for less committed and potential football fans.

[bob fleming]

I'm not saying I expect rovers to be challenging for top 4 every season (although it was nice) but I'd like to have the impression that if we played well enough week in week out we, or any other team bar Burnley, could get close to winning the competition. Knowing that your best won't be good enough - and having it rubbed in your face by the media - is so disheartening.

Just to quote this bit here. The thing is though, we all know that if we're going to compete with the "Big 4 TV" lot we'll have to spend a ridiculous amount of money on players. You're spot on, if, heaven forbid, we actually go and win it, we'll be accused of buying the league again by the bloody media!!

Best to just leave it to the Big 4 TV lot eh? That's what the TV and The Press want - despite the fact that it's dull as dishwater. Big4TV lot and 16 others.

A Liverpool fan at work yesterday forwarded me a link about the two American Chaps who will pump millions into LFC and buy them a new ground. "What do you think?" I didn't even bother reading it. So what? I thought. How exactly does this change things? Except Liverpool will be able to spend even more on players in their quest to win the league. They're in the top four year in year out anyway. As far as I was concerned it's totally irrelevant and not at all exciting. He didn't understand or care.

When are they organising this European Super League thing anyway? They're taking their time...

[Fife Rover]

Just to clarify the situation so that there is no further misunderstanding:-

My love for and interest in the Rovers has lasted unabated for over 60 years. This is still the case and my feelings for Rovers are not one bit less now than they ever were when I lived in Blackburn or Darwen, and held a season ticket every year, and went to a lot of away matches even at night through the week. I was and still am a Rovers fanatic. So much so that my wife thinks I am mad because I insist on wearing my Rovers shirt every time I watch them on the telly, even at home!

If I ever were to win the lottery or some such windfall, the very first thing I would do after banking the cheque would be to contact a number of Estate Agents in the Lancashire area and instruct them to inform me of any nice country cottages in a good location, and within say 30 miles of Ewood. The next thing would be to contact Rovers Marketing and get a season ticket for the JW Upper on the front row. That would then become my seat for life.

So you see my problem is NOT with the Rovers and NEVER has been. My problem is living 230 miles away from Ewood and having a very modest income, with extremely limited disposable income.

I also fully understand and share the feelings of those that find problems with the set-up provided by the combination of the EPL and the TV coverage. Added to this is the rip-off situation caused by the Player/Agent situation and also the cheating and other nonsense that goes on during games. The standard of reffing also adds to the general feeling of dissatisfaction, as does the absolute crap and hype that comes out of all the media.

However, whilst all the stuff in the last paragraph dismays and sometimes disgusts me, none of it will EVER interfere with my love for Blackburn Rovers; nothing ever could!

There now is that clear enough Theno?

[CAPT KAYOS]

Kayos is far more accurate than you Fife. Your posts are confused.

Thanks TND but I don't think Fife's posts are in ayway confusing. Its just I think you seem to be a bit tunnel visioned to put it kindly re the cost of BRFC tickets when replying to any posts.

I sort of agree with your 'Walker induced euphoria' comment on one hand but not re the priorities addage, as IMO that is what people are trying to do but it getting more difficult and that is what is getting people worried and annoyed.

bob fleming Posted Today, 14:36

A Liverpool fan at work yesterday forwarded me a link about the two American Chaps who will pump millions into LFC and buy them a new ground. "What do you think?" I didn't even bother reading it.

Bob this is where I may differ, maybe not with the non reading of it but the nature of it does mainly because of exactly what you have posted.

[bob fleming]

Bob this is where I may differ, maybe not with the non reading of it but the nature of it does mainly because of exactly what you have posted.

Nope, you've lost me there mate.

[CAPT KAYOS]

Nope, you've lost me there mate.

Nothing new there eh Bobski