[Archived] Do We Really Need A Riot?

[Fife Rover]

Like Aggy blue says fife,football violence has been seen and documented at matches as far back as the 19th century.Granted certainly not anywhere near the scale of the 70's or 80's but there have always been incidents.

People keep coming up with this one. I am not saying I don't believe them, but I would be very interested to actually see a sample of these news items. I can categorically say hand on heart that I have NEVER seen any such statements in any kind of publication, which includes my collection of books on football, 15 in all. That is not saying or implying that I don't believe these claims; what I am saying is that these incidents were very probably put into news archives at the time as they were reported, simply because at the time they happened things of this nature were such a shocking and newsworthy item that they have been preserved for all time as totally unbelievable and shocking behaviour.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Mike Jackman(1994): Blackburn Rovers the official Encyclopedia.........

On 27th November 1880,Darwen FC travelled to Blackburn to play a friendly fixture.A crowd of over 10,000 watched a rugged bruising encounter which ended with Rovers Suter becoming embroiled in a brawl with Marshall of Darwen.

Feelings between the two sets of supporters were such that a large number of them decided to join Suter and Marshall in battle.With little chance of restoring order there was no alternative but to abandon the match.The hostile atmosphere between the two clubs was such that it didn't always need an incident on the field to cause uproar.

Perhaps it was not the 'proper thing to do' reporting on the working class roughs in the past but I have a feeling fife that the problem has been with us from the very start.Groups of young men,Alcohol and a bit of territory and colour to defend and I dont think its ever been any different.

[only2garners]

My father did that in the 50's too Fife! Brought up in Hoghton a hot bed of PNE/Rovers rivalry, he was BRFC through and through but he went to PNE on alternate weeks simply to watch Tom Finney and football in general.

Also my dyed in the wool blue and white brothers-in-law (along with many others I might add) went t'turf on alternate weeks in the late 60's and early 70's. Who would dream of doing that now?

Being brought up in Rufford and always a Rovers fan, in the late 60s and early 70s I used to go with mates to Southport on a Friday night and Ewood or Deepdale on a Saturday, unless Rovers where away somewhere handy. Then, when I went to university at Sheffield in 1971 would go to Hillsborough or Bramall Lane when I couldn't get to Ewood (Hillsborough always first choice even though they were Div 2 and United Div1, after they offered us free tickets during freshers' week).

[FourLaneBlue]

Why it went as it did in the 70's I will never know nor understand, because it was quite simply not necessary. I can only think it was down to the changes in the 60's when common sense and educational standards both in schools and at home were abandoned in favour of the "New Freedom of Expression" and general idea of "anything goes".

I am sorry if you don't like that, but facts are facts and that is how it happened.

It seems to be the sixties when it was first identified as a problem in this country and by the seventies it had become endemic. Although there were examples of thuggish behaviour of fans prior to this (there are reports to be found in contemporary sources) it doesn't seem to have been perceived as a serious social problem until the sixties.

Football Research Centre

Interestingly it appears the modern type of hooliganism began in Latin America in the fifties before making its way over to Europe. Also from that above link it appears the English clubs in European competitions were the ones originally on the receiving end;

"In the early 1960s, the English wanted to pull out of European club competition because of their fears about foreign supporters and players."

So...not an 'English disease' after all then...which is good as we always do like to pretend diseases are French or something.

I think it might have had plenty to do with the loss of Empire. Thugs used to be enrolled in the army/navy and used as cannon fodder but with huge cutbacks in military spending - particularly after the fifties - they weren't needed so much. So they get jobs at home and played their little war games at the football...

[broadsword]

Maybe it's me, but I really can't see football fans in the late 19th century going around tooled up with stanley blades, bottles full of bleach, darts etc.

What was our "firm" called then? "The Blackburn Uncouth Factory Boys". Heaven forbid they chuck a groat at you!

Is there any evidence of organised, pre-meditated football violence before the 1960's?

[FourLaneBlue]

Maybe it's me, but I really can't see football fans in the late 19th century going around tooled up with stanley blades, bottles full of bleach, darts etc.

What was our "firm" called then? "The Blackburn Uncouth Factory Boys". Heaven forbid they chuck a groat at you!

Is there any evidence of organised, pre-meditated football violence before the 1960's?

Football hooliganism per se isn't related having a "firm" or being "oranised" and "pre-meditated"..it's about there being violence and mayhem connected with the football. Violence between fans existed before the sixties in this country and there are contemporary reports to back it up. It's hardly surprising when loads of males mass in one place and get emotional after having drunk beer.

It wasn't until the sixties when modern hooliganism began in this country however when it took on more of a gang-related nature involving large groups travelling to away games. Hooliganism existed before the sixties (or fifties apparently in Latin America) but it was more just thuggery and less organised as far as can be judged.

[herbergeehh]

"These two lads squaring up, proper shouting, 'bout who was next in the queue. The kind of thing that would seem so silly but not when they've both had a few.."

[thenodrog]

It seems to be the sixties when it was first identified as a problem in this country and by the seventies it had become endemic.

I think it might have had plenty to do with the loss of Empire. Thugs used to be enrolled in the army/navy and used as cannon fodder but with huge cutbacks in military spending - particularly after the fifties - they weren't needed so much. So they get jobs at home and played their little war games at the football...

Well along those lines .........

1. Most of the 60's numpty braindead left school at 15 to follow an apprenticeship, and they were lumped into the company of working adults far sooner than now. Contrary to the popular myth about youngsters being more advanced nowadays I beleive that kids grew up (matured mentally) far quicker in those days!

2. The abolishment of National service in the late 50's might also be a significant pointer.

3. Abolishment of corporal punishment in schools. How many kids were slippered / caned in the 50's and 60's and how many parents complained? Personally in 14 years of schooling through the 60's I can recall NO parent ever coming into school for such! Never mind the court case and the loss of a teaching career such a situation nowadays would invariably result in the headteacher getting beaten up in his office by some low life.

Basically discipline was administered to kids from a variety of sources in those days rather than being left solely to parents, many / some of whom are not fit to look after themselves never mind their offspring. Overall kids were whipped into shape far earlier in their lives in those days by society as a whole instead of their development being left to their own devices (or chance) under ever more liberal conditions. The resultant change in society really does speak volumes.

[thenodrog]

Ooops posted twice

BTW Herhergeeh I saw a couple of droogs in the Cologne Karnival. Well done too, but God only knows where the Germans got cricket box apiece from to cover their 'yarbles' (nadsat)

[Paul Mellelieu]

Agree with point 1 tg. Working class young men were socialised by the workplace, unions and or religion. Despite my antipathy for the later it did encourage a level of social solidarity. The problem we have is not a lack of physical violence dealt out to children by adults, but too much if you read the biographies of the young men who get involved in trouble, but a lack of believe that society can be a better place by cooperating. Thatcher saw to that and Blair continued in the same vein.

Speaking from experience being caned by the headteacher was nothing more than a humiliating experience, which reinforced the feeling that violence is how you sort things out. For me being banned from the school football team did the trick in keeping my temper when being goaded.

[thenodrog]

Thatcher saw to that and Blair continued in the same vein.

Can hardly blame those two! Football violence and the changes to society that we are discussing began and continued through the tenures of MacMillan, Wilson, Heath, Callaghan before Mrs Thatcher got her chance...... albeit and ironically on the back of an election campaign based on Law and Order issues!

[FourLaneBlue]

Can hardly blame those two! Football violence and the changes to society that we are discussing began and continued through the tenures of MacMillan, Wilson, Heath, Callaghan before Mrs Thatcher got her chance...... albeit and ironically on the back of an election campaign based on Law and Order issues!

Bit puzzling there theno. You seem to contradicting your own point though as far as I can work out.

You mentioned that in the sixties no parents complained about corporal punishment and that lead to a lower of respect or whatever. Yet it was in this period that modern hooliganism began in the UK. Those thugs and casuals fighting on the terraces and throwing marbles under horses would have experienced discipline at school in the sixties or before and, as you said, no parents would have complained. If the abolition of corporal punishment is a factor on the thuggish behaviour of fans then why was it, if anything, a far worse time for hooliganism when it still happened then it has been since the cane was banned from schools?

Certainly it seems nothing like the seventies/eighties when groups of fans tried to take away ends led usually by some old experienced blokes in their thirties and forties...children of corporal punishment!

On another note...trying to say that any fan who fights is not a true fan is codswallop and an attempt to brush off the problem. Rovers fans (or any other club) are made up of all types...from nice people to thugs. When anyone says they can't be Rovers fans then it always comes across as trying to wash our hands of the situation. I'm not talking about specific incident here either. Like all clubs we have less than salubrious elements of support but let's not try and deny it. It'd be a lot more useful if we accepted this and tried to come up with solutions to lessen the effect that the minority can have on the enjoyment on the more relaxed majority of the fans.

[thenodrog]

Bit puzzling there theno. You seem to contradicting your own point though as far as I can work out.

You mentioned that in the sixties no parents complained about corporal punishment and that lead to a lower of respect or whatever. Yet it was in this period that modern hooliganism began in the UK. Those thugs and casuals fighting on the terraces and throwing marbles under horses would have experienced discipline at school in the sixties or before and, as you said, no parents would have complained. If the abolition of corporal punishment is a factor on the thuggish behaviour of fans then why was it, if anything, a far worse time for hooliganism when it still happened then it has been since the cane was banned from schools?

So it's Macca abolishing National Service then!

FLB I don't think that change is down to any one thing at any one time, it is more of a gradual descent over the years.

[AggyBlue]

On another note...trying to say that any fan who fights is not a true fan is codswallop and an attempt to brush off the problem. Rovers fans (or any other club) are made up of all types...from nice people to thugs.

Well said FLB.

[blue phil]

The problem we have is not a lack of physical violence dealt out to children by adults, but too much if you read the biographies of the young men who get involved in trouble,

Speaking from experience being caned by the headteacher was nothing more than a humiliating experience, which reinforced the feeling that violence is how you sort things out. For me being banned from the school football team did the trick in keeping my temper when being goaded.

Discipline in schools need not take the form of "physical violence" . I can only recollect being given the cane (or pump to be more precise !) once or twice ; it's not what you call violence - more a form of humiliation . There is a massive difference between corporal punishment and violence and physical abuse . Those who disagree with the former always confuse the issue by describing it as the latter .

[Paul Mellelieu]

I was caned at the age of 10 by a man in his 50s. And humiliating it was. And it hurt, leaving deep red marks on my backside for days. What else could you call it than an act of legal physical violence against me. I felt let down that my parents could not protect me. What was my crime you ask? Brawling in the playground. So to prove fighting is wrong, you hit a child until he nearly bleeds. Great logic. Not.

As well as being wrong, there is no evidence at all that hitting children does anything than harm.

[blue phil]

Like I said , there's a distinction between corporal punishment and physical violence .....a couple of whacks on the palm of the hand without breaking fingers or spraying the walls with blood would have sufficed for a ten year old I'd have thought .

[thenodrog]

What was my crime you ask? Brawling in the playground. So to prove fighting is wrong, you hit a child until he nearly bleeds. Great logic. Not.

I never got caned or slippered despite doing lots of scrapping at junior school. Got belted plenty of times though... back of the bare legs/back of the head being the usual teacher targets.

Tell me Macca did you fight in the schoolyard again?

[Paul Mellelieu]

Of course. i went to school in Langho and had to put up with a load of our country cousins who were riding high at the time in Division One. Being banned from playing for the school football team seemed to do the trick actually.

[adopted scouser]

Trouble at 'Lill'

Giggs took a quick free kick and scored, then the Lille players were beckoned to leave the pitch ! Missiles raining down on the pitch as we speak.

[adopted scouser]

They should be thrown out of the competition.