[Archived] Fergie

[Hasta]

Yes M-K, but do you not see the allegation that the ref got out of the way, so that Giggs could put the ball into an empty net? Does that not cause some unease?

It's wrong and shouldn't happen again. It happened against us when Beckham put the ball past Brad who was a mile off his goal line organising the wall. At the same time Craig Short was barely inches over the touchline. The rovers fans were incensed at that time and it's no wonder.

One of the rovers players did the same thing in a game shortly after that one and was booked for it. Obviously because the ref hadn't said he could take it quickly.

It's been happening for years. I remember Shearer scroring from it at Ewood against QPR in 1994.

Are people trying to say that you can take a quick free kick on the half way line but not on the edge of the box. How close to goal should free kicks be before they can't be taken quickly? 35 yards? 30 yards? 25 yards?. When there's a wall?

If the ref isnt ready for the free kick becuase he's talking to the opposition or trying to get the wall back it shouldn't be allowed. However the attacking side shouldnt have to wait though just until the keeper and defenders are ready.

[DP]

Nothing wrong with taking a quick free kick, it's the "is the ref ready or not?" issue that seems to confuse everyone. Surely the ref has to raise his arm or something to signal that the kick can be taken?

If not, then how does a defensive team defend a free kick within shooting range. Immediately stand over the ball? Start a 5 man wall only 5 yards away? But then can't a player be booked for that?

The rules are the rules, and because of that, the goal should have stood. But, what really irritated me was ITV's let's all masturbate over a Manchester Utd victory attitude. And ooh that Lille a nasty small club who won't bring in any viewers to our programme. Andy Townsend was banging on about how the benefit of the doubt is given to the striker these days. Cue slow motion replay of the dissallowed Lille goal, which left me very much undecided and straight away what does Townsend say? "good decision by the referee".

So the new rule should be to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team, unless they're playing against Manchester Utd. Ah, I understand now.

[M-K]

Yes M-K, but do you not see the allegation that the ref got out of the way, so that Giggs could put the ball into an empty net? Does that not cause some unease?

Giggs: "Can I take this one quickly, ref?"

Ref: "Okay, but wait until I'm out of the way"

Nothing wrong with that. I only wish we had players capable enough to do the same thing.

Whether or not you feel it was entirely fair, the real issue is that the French coach spat his dummy, chucked his rattle out of his pram and tried to take his ball home. In a game where the Man U fans had already been pounded with batons and pepper sprayed in the first half, it could easily have sparked a riot. There were bits of debris flying onto the pitch from all sides.

When AC Milan walked off late on while 1-0 down to Marseille a few years back after a floodlight failure, they got a year's ban. But that was just gamesmanship - there wasn't a 30,000 crowd baying for blood then. I doubt we'll be seeing Lille in Europe for a while.

[Billy Castell]

If Lille do get a ban, then we'll know just how corrupt and cowardly UEFA are. The Italians should be banned for repeated incidents of hooliganism, both home and abroad, and the rampant corruption in their domestic league. But since they are a 'big name' country, and are currently world champions UEFA will p_ss about giving little fines here and there.

[Fife Rover]

Have you all forgotten that United worked the exact same free kick routine against Rovers at Ewood a few years back. Brad and the wall were still getting organised when Beckham (think it was him) took the kick and scored. That too was allowed to stand in spite of Rovers protests. But I would give very long odds on it being allowed if the free kick had been for Rovers against United.

[Hasta]

I haven't forgotten but the argument there was that Short, who had been sent off, wasnt off the field of play.

Let us not forget that until recently Tugay wasted a hell of a lot of our free kicks around the edge of the box by trying to play a quick through ball. Having tried this, he was lucky to get a second chance at man City as the ref wasnt paying attention, from which Pedersen scored. Plenty of teams do it and get away with it, not just Man U. The laws allow it so there's nothing wrong with it.

I'm not doing a back to the wall defence of man U here. Just being honest. If I was being bitter on last nights game I'd comment on the joke of a disallowed goal.

[bluebruce]

It was Giggs - Ronaldo was nowhere near it. The referee clearly said something to Giggs and Rooney. Rooney placed the ball and Giggs whipped it in, so the ref must have given the nod for the free kick to be taken. How many times have we seen similar from Henry at Arsenal? Absolutely nothing wrong with it, and when Henry does it, it's usually called clever play.

The only reason anyone is getting all worked up about it here is because it's Man U. So what? Plenty of people hate the Rovers with almost equal venom, not because we win anyything but because we have a nasty habit of kicking their best players off the park. After what the French coach did, they'll be lucky to be allowed to contest the second leg. A Euro ban wouldn't be an overreaction, so can't we just stop with all the 'Fergie makes my blood boil' rubbish and concentrate on hating West Ham or something?

No offence, but this makes me want to swear profusely. For starters, I couldn't give an iota of a hairy toss about West Ham, but I hate Man U with a passion. And there IS something wrong with it, whether it's in the rules or not. It's just messed up. Teams are trying to arrange their wall, and there comes the ball whipping over the top. It's crap! And for the record, I've hated it just as much when henry has done it, even though I've very little against Henry. And the PSV goal should have been allowed.

[FourLaneBlue]

Yes M-K, but do you not see the allegation that the ref got out of the way, so that Giggs could put the ball into an empty net? Does that not cause some unease?

Not really...of course the referee is going to get out of the way of the ball. It's the fault of the Lille defenders for not being ready. We should remember that a free kick is awarded to penalise them NOT to allow them to re-form their positions and 'get ready.'

Good decision by the ref but I'm not surprised it annoyed Lille so much. Particularly I recall a quickly taken David Beckham free kick at Ewood in our first season back up while the just sent off Craig Short was still walking off the pitch. That was a very difficult decision to take but, ultimately, the correct one. No surprise Lille were annoyed especially as they had a legitimate goal chalked off for a seemingly non-existent push.

Don't think Lille should be chucked out or anything as they don't have a history of bad behaviour as I can recall but they should get a warning. For the objects thrown from the crowd as much as anything.

EDIT - I have just seen that you also mentioned that same game! I was incensed that day but, under the rules of the game, it is the right decision. Whether a goalkeeper is ready or not is not important. They SHOULD be ready as soon as they kick is played. It was a new interpretation then but has been with us five years now and has happened loads of times.

[den]

Whether a goalkeeper is ready or not is not important. They SHOULD be ready as soon as they kick is played.

It is important because we had a player booked shortly afterwards for guess what - scoring a quickly taken free kick. That's what I'm getting at FLB. It's unfair and so open to percieved bias from the refs.

It's a different situation from other quickly taken free kicks as well, because the ref gives the impression that he's going to organise the situation, then walks [or runs in the case of Beckhams free kick against us] away. That's unfair on the defending team.

[FourLaneBlue]

It is important because we had a player booked shortly afterwards for guess what - scoring a quickly taken free kick. That's what I'm getting at FLB. It's unfair and so open to percieved bias from the refs.

I'm not saying it is fair or consistent but that, in the rules of the game, it is legitimate. Would the referee have allowed the goal to stand if it had been Lille and not Man U who did it? I have my doubts...

[den]

Have you all forgotten that United worked the exact same free kick routine against Rovers at Ewood a few years back.

No Fife. If you read the thread, you will see it mentioned a few posts back.

[blue phil]

It's a different situation from other quickly taken free kicks as well, because the ref gives the impression that he's going to organise the situation, then walks [or runs in the case of Beckhams free kick against us] away. That's unfair on the defending team.

Unfair on the defending team eh ? What nonsense . If they hadn't have given away the free kick then life wouldn't be so unfair . It's been the case for ages now that the ref holds his whistle up for all to see if he intends to make everyone wait . If he doesn't do so then a quick kick is to be expected .

If the defence haven't got the wit to defend against a quick free kick then that's just tough . This isn't cricket where you can hold your hand up if you're not composed enough at the crease ..... in fact I'm sure I remember a case when a ref blew the whistle at a penalty kick when he felt the keeper had wasted enough time - he did right .

[den]

It's been the case for ages now that the ref holds his whistle up for all to see if he intends to make everyone wait . If he doesn't do so then a quick kick is to be expected .

Eh?

[M-K]

If Lille do get a ban, then we'll know just how corrupt and cowardly UEFA are. The Italians should be banned for repeated incidents of hooliganism, both home and abroad, and the rampant corruption in their domestic league. But since they are a 'big name' country, and are currently world champions UEFA will p_ss about giving little fines here and there.

Cripes, where do I start? I'm sure I mentioned the ban handed out to Milan for a similar but less inflammatory act of petulance. Maybe you should stick a few quid on Juventus to win this year's Champions League if you reckon the system is stacked towards the Italians.

[Exiled_Rover]

It is important because we had a player booked shortly afterwards for guess what - scoring a quickly taken free kick. That's what I'm getting at FLB. It's unfair and so open to percieved bias from the refs.

It's a different situation from other quickly taken free kicks as well, because the ref gives the impression that he's going to organise the situation, then walks [or runs in the case of Beckhams free kick against us] away. That's unfair on the defending team.

Especially considering if the defending team puts a man infront of the ball whilst the wall & keeper get themselves organised he's going to get booked. The rule needs to be changed.

The biggest talking point of the game though was definately the Vidic dive/disallowed goal. Awful decision.

[Billy Castell]

Cripes, where do I start? I'm sure I mentioned the ban handed out to Milan for a similar but less inflammatory act of petulance. Maybe you should stick a few quid on Juventus to win this year's Champions League if you reckon the system is stacked towards the Italians.

Were Inter banned when Dida was given second degree burns due to being hit by a flare that nearly got him in the face? Or Roma when the ref got concussion when a coin hit him on the head in the match against Dynamo Kiev? Walking off in a huff is one thing, but when there are repeated acts of violence from the fans, who are intent on injuring others they should be banned. UEFA would be more likely banned the clubs if they were English, Slovakian or Andorran. However, as it was Italy, they get a few games behind closed doors. Spanish teams have gotten away with some disgusting racism as well, a little fine here or there, so I'd say it is the 'big name countries', with the exception of England that get away with it. The system allows Turkish fans to murder people, Italians to scream racist abuse and assault fans and refs, and Spaniards to do monkey chants to any black player. Italian fans are scum, and should be made to pay for their hooliganism, as should those who behave in a similar fashion. I shall ignore your second comment as it is not worth the effort of responding to.

[USRoverME]

I don't know if anyone else has read up on Lille's "reasoning" behind the 'fake walk off'.

Apparently they claim that they wanted to appeal the decision, and that in French League football, you have to do so at the very first stoppage after the call. So they kicked the ball out, and had the team huddle to the side so that they could protest to the 4th official, it was now a means of keeping the team organized during the protest, not a staged walkoff.... supposedly.

Their "apology" is that they didn't realize that in Champions League football, apparently there's a way to challenge the call later...

I think its a load of Rubbish, but that's the claim.

[thenodrog]

Nothing wrong with taking a quick free kick, it's the "is the ref ready or not?" issue that seems to confuse everyone. Surely the ref has to raise his arm or something to signal that the kick can be taken?

It's been the case for ages now that the ref holds his whistle up for all to see if he intends to make everyone wait . If he doesn't do so then a quick kick is to be expected .

The refs arm held aloft indicates an indirect free kick. Anything else relating to referees arms in the air at free kicks would be bound to cause confusion imo.

[thenodrog]

Every club in the land gets bad decisions, sometimes a lot more in one game than the Lille players got last night.

Lille think they have been the victims of bad decisions? The poor bgugers haven't played at Old Trafford yet.

[thenodrog]

btw not been mentioned yet but Platini will have significant input I'm sure.

[thenodrog]

For once I don't think Fergie was totally out of order, and it was also good to watch him publicly bollocking Gary Neville on the pitch for sticking his oar in.

Credit to Fergy for his quick witted intervention...... but it was motivated purely by his slyness. He recognised immediately that Lille were busy digging a big hole for themselves so he got his captain and troops out pdq.

btw Guardian running a poll and 56% think Lille should be kicked out of the CL for Pete's sake! Speaks volumes for their readership doesn't it?

[M-K]

I shall ignore your second comment as it is not worth the effort of responding to.

Well, thanks for not making the effort. I'm not going to fuel conspiracy theories by listing every incident where there has been trouble in the stands and the football club has got off lightly, because clearly there have been too many.

In this particular incident, which has nothing to do with Spain, Italy or anywhere but Lille, the trouble was not provoked by a hooligan minority. It was provoked by the club's management. That's totally different to anything that could 'normally' be expected to kick off once or twice a season.

If a club's management can't be trusted not to start a riot when things aren't going their way, they need to be taught a lesson.

[neekoy]

Whether or not Lille should have walked off not have walked off sat over to decide whethr to complain or what not is doesn't matter. Fergie should ahve shut his (Please don't use that word again)ing mouth, he didn;t need to make a comment and should ahve said leave it those who make the decsiosns, but no he has to throw his ###### opinion in.

He is a (Please don't use that word again)head

I've had a few some mind the swareing and the poor endlihdh

[LeftWinger]

Notice the United fans on the right of the picture climbing the barrier. They're giving V Signs to someone behind - maybe they weren't all just climbing the fences to avoid being crushed.

[AggyBlue]

Notice the United fans on the right of the picture climbing the barrier. They're giving V Signs to someone behind - maybe they weren't all just climbing the fences to avoid being crushed.

Doesn't look much of a crush at the front behind them.

The footage I saw on the news didn't show a crush either, just fans goading the police.