[Archived] Champions League

[herbergeehh]

But if you're here to discuss football, surely that's what you're getting when people make arguments against your praise for Benitez?

Personally, I have a lot of time for a lot of the players he's brought in, but at the same time I don't think he's brought more to Liverpool than a lot of other managers could do with the money he's spent. But then again, I really don't care about what he does, and I'm sure the Liverpool fans (such as yourself?) don't care what we as Rovers-fans think either. Good manager? Yes. The best in the world? Miles away.

[neekoy]

No, no, you saw it as 10 minutes of luck because you just can't take the fact that another English side had done it that way.

You just answer my question,

If we won the Champions League, F.A Cup the way Liverpool won it and people say we won it by 'luck' would you really care???

NO!!! because at the end of the day we'll be taking the cup home, our fans will be celebrating on the streets and most importantly we have been succesfull!!!

People who can't take the fact that our team has won the cup will always make excuses and thats what you are doing at the moment, you can't take the fact that Liverpool won finals that they had no right of but you just have to carry on with it and take it on the chin, hopefully one day our day will come!

It has nothing to do with another English side, any other team winning like that is down to luck, Liverpool or friggin Swazi FC.

Would I really care? No, however it would still be laughable to try and say either Hughes was the best manager in the world or a tactical genius because he completely ###### up the tactical situation for 80 minutes of the game, and equally laughable for me to rant and rave how 'special' Rovers are because of it.

"People who can't take the fact that our team has won the cup" (Please don't use that word again) off back to your KOP site.

"you can't take the fact that Liverpool won finals that they had no right of" Your honor, I rest my case.

Liverpool is a massive club, anything less then being dominate in a football game is not good enough for a club that size. Seven years out of the last ten they have nothing to show.

[Eddie]

I reckon Rafa Benitez is one of the best managers in the world, if not THE best, why can't people just take it on the chin because at the end of the day thats MY opinion.

Ok, fair enough, but may I aks you a simple question regarding this issue: if Benitez is the "best manager in the world", then why has he failed to win the premiership (or even come close) despite having spent more than enough money, inherited a couple of top class players and has the required infrastructure?

[daren]

My brothers, 3 of the guys I play footie with and one of my house mates are Liverpool fans. Quite rabid, in fact. And they're not happy. The long and the short of it is that sure - winning the CL is a great achievement for the team. But does it make up for seeing those bloody mancs and poncey Chelsea and L'Arsé, and even the Mighty Rovers winning the league, when you lot haven't been in contention. It doesn't for my mates, and I bet it doesn't for you. You lot already had 4 European cups, now it's 5. Does it make up for having the likes of us lord it over you with our premiership champions shirts, when you don't have any? If it does, you're like no Liverpool supporter I know!

Quit hiding behind your European success for 1 of the last 3 years, and your going close this year. Your team has not cut it in the Premiership despite having a decent bunch of players. Is it the commitment of the players? Is it the quality? Is it concentration? Is it pressure? Or is it that you didn't play the same team for well over 90 games in a row, especially shuffling up front so no-one got to get to know how the other plays in a match? Or is it that your team is invariably set up to counter the opposition rather than playing to your strengths? Rafa's mentality is what's at question here. He'd be a good manager for a team who are lacking in quality but he's badly let you down in the league. And he's cost £110 million, and expects £60 million to spend this summer! Without that Champions League win - there'd be somebody else at the helm, and you'd do better.

That said, I'm happy he's there, it leaves you very beatable indeed, and more points for the Rovers == daren very happy.

And you do get to discuss football here, most of the comments make a decent point (aside from the odd low-key flamewar). I've never seen Godwin's Law being applied or anything. But we're Rovers fans and you seem to feel that it's not as valuable as supporting Liverpool. I'll tell you, anyone can support Liverpool, or Manky, or L'Arsé or Chelsea. It takes cojones to follow Rovers through the never-ending drama So talk about neutral issues in football (if there are any) or discuss transfers, but don't be surprised when Rovers fans aren't sympathetic when you bang on about how great a team that haven't won a league since before us are. Or any other team. Especially the Dingles.

Oh, yeah, and (All credit to wikipedia, linking directly is bad form, but it felt appropriate. Good article too!)

Edit: got the image link wrong. typical.

[tcj_jones]

I think it is important to remember that Benitex has actually won La Liga with Valencia, a league where the gulf between the top two and the rest of the league is far wider than in the Premiership. He must be doing something right!

If Benitez, whilst at Liverpool, rather than picking up several "bargains" or mediocre players for inflated fees, splashed out big money for a world class player on a less regular basis, he'd be challanging for the league. The reason Liverpool aren't is that Benitez has not bought good enough players for the most part. Exceptions to this would have to be Alonso, Sissoko and Mascherano.

He has also certainly failed to get the best out of Bellamy. At Newcastle and Blackburn he was sensational, but he's done next to nothing at Liverpool.

[philipl]

I reckon Rafa Benitez is one of the best managers in the world, if not THE best, why can't people just take it on the chin because at the end of the day thats MY opinion.

So either

Liverpool did not employ Benitez to win the Premiership, or

Your opinion is distinctly odd

This is the thread about the Champions League winners. By definition, it is not about Liverpool.

PS tcj, I was astonished to read that Liverpool are about to sell Sissoko- if they are to mount a Prem challenge, I would have thought he was the player they should be building around. But then again Raffa the great turned one of the most dangerous players in the Prem in 2005/6 into a shuffling non-entity in 2006/7 (Bellamy). Reading this article by a deluded Maltese, it is self-evident that Rafa has made a horlicks of spending £70m+ and wants to rip it all up and start again.

[Eddie]

I think it is important to remember that Benitex has actually won La Liga with Valencia, a league where the gulf between the top two and the rest of the league is far wider than in the Premiership. He must be doing something right!

If Benitez, whilst at Liverpool, rather than picking up several "bargains" or mediocre players for inflated fees, splashed out big money for a world class player on a less regular basis, he'd be challanging for the league. The reason Liverpool aren't is that Benitez has not bought good enough players for the most part. Exceptions to this would have to be Alonso, Sissoko and Mascherano.

I'd have to disagree with you on that. At the time that Valencia won the league the top two were hardly dominant. When he took over he had a good side and it wasn't really an amazing achievement.

As for his good signings, well Mascherano was a bit obvious and he was really helped out there by West Ham. Sissoko has been ok, but well short of being a really quality signing.

[neekoy]

I'd have to disagree with you on that. At the time that Valencia won the league the top two were hardly dominant. When he took over he had a good side and it wasn't really an amazing achievement.

As for his good signings, well Mascherano was a bit obvious and he was really helped out there by West Ham. Sissoko has been ok, but well short of being a really quality signing.

I think he is talking about the fact that other then probably four occasions it was one of the big two that has won the league in the last twenty or so years.

Benitez won La Liga twice and Uefa Cup but with a side that Cuper built (with a little help from Ranieri).

I do disagree with TCJ on the level that he has purchased mainly over inflated prices and bargains, TCJ is covering all the bases, don't you either only buy players for inflated prices or bargains? And doesn't that only reflect their performances after the register with the club?

One mans bargain, Benni, is another man's overinflated purchase at another club (Celta)

Question for TCJ....If Benitez had signed Sheva and Ballack would he have changed their performance this year? Do you really think that if he had brought that proven quality in they would have been any closer to the title?

and for those concerned about going off topic, can we change the thread title to "Champions League winners OR are Benitez/Liverpool overrated"

[Bazzanotsogreat]

So either

Liverpool did not employ Benitez to win the Premiership, or

Your opinion is distinctly odd

This is the thread about the Champions League winners. By definition, it is not about Liverpool.

PS tcj, I was astonished to read that Liverpool are about to sell Sissoko- if they are to mount a Prem challenge, I would have thought he was the player they should be building around. But then again Raffa the great turned one of the most dangerous players in the Prem in 2005/6 into a shuffling non-entity in 2006/7 (Bellamy). Reading this article by a deluded Maltese, it is self-evident that Rafa has made a horlicks of spending £70m+ and wants to rip it all up and start again.

Thats because they just signed one of the best young CM's midfielders in South Ameriaca , Lucas is also very simalar in his style of play to Sissiko. So they would have alonso,lucas,gerrard & Mascherano in anycase vying for a spot

[ewoodblue]

It has nothing to do with another English side, any other team winning like that is down to luck, Liverpool or friggin Swazi FC.

Would I really care? No, however it would still be laughable to try and say either Hughes was the best manager in the world or a tactical genius because he completely ###### up the tactical situation for 80 minutes of the game, and equally laughable for me to rant and rave how 'special' Rovers are because of it.

"People who can't take the fact that our team has won the cup" (Please don't use that word again) off back to your KOP site.

"you can't take the fact that Liverpool won finals that they had no right of" Your honor, I rest my case.

Liverpool is a massive club, anything less then being dominate in a football game is not good enough for a club that size. Seven years out of the last ten they have nothing to show.

Why don't you just keep this a debate,and stop being so provacative.If you don't like Liverpool ,then so be it, but everyones entitled to a say .

As I've already stated, I'm a Rovers supporter ,but I like Liverpool too,so have I to blah blah back to the Kop site to.Also should all the people in the Northwest who love watching Liverpool all blah blah off and go to live in Liverpool.

So any aggrieved manc lovers, I like Liverpool, so if ytou don't like it, blah blah back to the prawn butty site

[neekoy]

Why don't you just keep this a debate,and stop being so provacative.If you don't like Liverpool ,then so be it, but everyones entitled to a say .

As I've already stated, I'm a Rovers supporter ,but I like Liverpool too,so have I to blah blah back to the Kop site to.Also should all the people in the Northwest who love watching Liverpool all blah blah off and go to live in Liverpool.

So any aggrieved manc lovers, I like Liverpool, so if ytou don't like it, blah blah back to the prawn butty site

That post would have been completely fine with me if only you bothered to read the rest of the debate, I would say probably 3 pages of back and forth banter.

The fact that he calls Liverpool 'our team' in his post is far and beyond the little attachment you have to the red half of Merseyside. I treated his post with the same contempt I would if it was a Bumley supporter trolloping the same tripe.

As far as entitlement goes, you are right everyone has a right to an opinion, including me. I don't agree with this Liverpudian love story so I shut it down, with hard cold facts mind you.

So I reiterate, IF you love 'our team' Liverpool more then Blackburn, (Please don't use that word again) off back to your KOP site.

[Roar of the Rover]

That post would have been completely fine with me if only you bothered to read the rest of the debate, I would say probably 3 pages of back and forth banter.

The fact that he calls Liverpool 'our team' in his post is far and beyond the little attachment you have to the red half of Merseyside. I treated his post with the same contempt I would if it was a Bumley supporter trolloping the same tripe.

As far as entitlement goes, you are right everyone has a right to an opinion, including me. I don't agree with this Liverpudian love story so I shut it down, with hard cold facts mind you.

So I reiterate, IF you love 'our team' Liverpool more then Blackburn, (Please don't use that word again) off back to your KOP site.

I dont think you understood what i said, read it properly and if you don't understand then ask for assistant, i said that IF OUR team (Rovers) won the CL would you care how they won it??

NO, because it wold be OUR FANS (rovers) on the streets celebrating.

I still feel that you are jealous of Liverpools success or either just cant take the fact that its Liverpool, ok i understand not everyone likes them but some people do, like me, you might be a Manc Lover, i don't know, but if i did i wouldn't go and say to you to (Please don't use that word again) off to a Manc forum.

[Eddie]

No you don't get it. We aren't saying it wasn't good for Liverpool to win the Champions League and we aren't denying that they have a rich history in all competitions, but that doesn't make their current manager great and that is the fact that we are disputing. Could you please answer my question that I put to you a little earlier about why such a great manager has failed to challenge the top 2?

[Roar of the Rover]

No you don't get it. We aren't saying it wasn't good for Liverpool to win the Champions League and we aren't denying that they have a rich history in all competitions, but that doesn't make their current manager great and that is the fact that we are disputing. Could you please answer my question that I put to you a little earlier about why such a great manager has failed to challenge the top 2?

How long did it take King Kenny to either get close or win the League??

[Neil Weaver]

How long did it take King Kenny to either get close or win the League??

Today's modern history lesson.

Kenny was appointed manager on 12 October 1991.

We were promoted that season

First season in the Premiership we finished 4th.

Next season we were 2nd.

Next season we were champions.

Your point?

[Eddie]

How long did it take King Kenny to either get close or win the League??

He didn't take over a side that was already firmly established in the top four which also contained some very good players and a couple of world class ones.

[Roar of the Rover]

Today's modern history lesson.

Kenny was appointed manager on 12 October 1991.

We were promoted that season

First season in the Premiership we finished 4th.

Next season we were 2nd.

Next season we were champions.

Your point?

At that time there was only one team to compete with and that was Man Utd, now its Man Utd Chelsea and Arsenal.

I will love it when Benitez proves you lot wrong.

[Billy Castell]

And you'll be there cheering them on in the Kop!

As for Rafa, he's only won 1 European Cup/Champions League trophy, the same as Ferguson and Jose, but 1 fewer than Brian Clough. He's not done anything special in the domestic league, unlike Clough and Ferguson, nor Jose. So therefore, he should be regarded as a good manager but not a great one.

[Eddie]

At that time there was only one team to compete with and that was Man Utd, now its Man Utd Chelsea and Arsenal.

I will love it when Benitez proves you lot wrong.

At the moment there are really only two sides seriously competing for the title. Liverpool are not one of them because of the poor management of Benitez.

[Roar of the Rover]

At the moment there are really only two sides seriously competing for the title. Liverpool are not one of them because of the poor management of Benitez.

If they get a good start next season they will be serious contenders for the title, its not poor management, ok if a top four club doesn't do that well in the league you atleast expect them to have a good cup run, like Liverpool did in the Champions League unlike Arsenal, thats what you call poor management and don't mention the League Cup because thats not really good enough for a top four club.

[Roar of the Rover]

And you'll be there cheering them on in the Kop!

As for Rafa, he's only won 1 European Cup/Champions League trophy, the same as Ferguson and Jose, but 1 fewer than Brian Clough. He's not done anything special in the domestic league, unlike Clough and Ferguson, nor Jose. So therefore, he should be regarded as a good manager but not a great one.

Damn Right!! how could i miss that day!

He's also won the F.A Cup, winning is one thing but its the way they won both competions is what makes Liverpool a Special side in my eyes.

[daren]

you mean stumbling over the line? (In fairness, that's what happened. Also in fairness, not boring.)

Liverpool are maybe a special club, certainly with a history like you lot had in the 70's and 80's, and such great characters and players. All I'm saying is that they are NOT living up to it at the moment, and I think I have to blame Benitez. Who else is there to blame? You can support a club, love the players, the atmosphere, and the running of the club, and still feel that they have the management wrong. I think they do, and I'm fairly neutral (my only gripe about Liverpool is about the city. What's with the one million traffic lights, all really close together. Mind you, I was in a rush to get to Blackburn at the time...)

You cannot deny that he's had good backing from the club, and you can't deny that there are some good players there. But he's stuttering along at the moment. Maybe he'll come good, maybe not. I think that he has to start playing to your strengths, especially against weaker sides, and he HAS to pick a settled team, especially up front. If he doesn't - boom, another wasted season for you. Don't let your support of the club blind you.

[neekoy]

If they get a good start next season they will be serious contenders for the title, its not poor management, ok if a top four club doesn't do that well in the league you atleast expect them to have a good cup run, like Liverpool did in the Champions League unlike Arsenal, thats what you call poor management and don't mention the League Cup because thats not really good enough for a top four club.

What is it then? Down to luck?

If Liverpool had Wenger, Ferguson or Mourinho they would have won the league already.

Power to weight ratio, add Hughes and Allardyce as well.

[neekoy]

People who can't take the fact that our team has won the cup will always make excuses and thats what you are doing at the moment

No I think you were pretty clear, you mentioned would I be happy if Rovers won in the same fashion, then you added this when speaking about Liverpool.

If you are speaking about Rovers, what cup are you talking about? If you ARE talking about Rovers then this sentence makes no sense.

I dont think you understood what i said, read it properly and if you don't understand then ask for assistant, i said that IF OUR team (Rovers) won the CL would you care how they won it??

I still feel that you are jealous of Liverpools success or either just cant take the fact that its Liverpool, ok i understand not everyone likes them but some people do, like me, you might be a Manc Lover, i don't know, but if i did i wouldn't go and say to you to (Please don't use that word again) off to a Manc forum.

You just don't get it. I am not jealous of Liverpool's past success, because if you examine success to size ratio we are probably more successful over time.

I hate the Manc as much as the Scouse, but at least they are consitently winning something and therefore probably have a decent enough claim to brag.

[Roar of the Rover]

No I think you were pretty clear, you mentioned would I be happy if Rovers won in the same fashion, then you added this when speaking about Liverpool.

If you are speaking about Rovers, what cup are you talking about? If you ARE talking about Rovers then this sentence makes no sense.

You just don't get it. I am not jealous of Liverpool's past success, because if you examine success to size ratio we are probably more successful over time.

I hate the Manc as much as the Scouse, but at least they are consitently winning something and therefore probably have a decent enough claim to brag.

I was just giving an example if we won ANY cup.

IF we won any cup (ROVERS) would you really care how we won it?? And would you care if other fans were making remarks about how our team (ROVERS) won it either by penalties or luck??