[Archived] Rovers Sold ??

[Rainmaker]

Heh, everyone's making the same mistake I made earlier, which is that damage is not talking as himself - he's talking as a potential owner trying to suss out who's worth what to the club in terms of direct revenue. In that case, ST holders (members) are probably worth more than someone who spends more getting there, but attends one or two games a season.

Well, let me play devils advocate here.

It the big picture, ST-holders are not the big buck post in the budget. TV-money is.

More viewers = more expensiv TV rights = more money to the club

More foreign supporters = more viewers

[Damage]

Damage,

•You'll be very lucky if a prospective owner takes the opinion of supporters in general into account - let alone break the value of their opinion down depending on financial contribution.

probably true but I can but try to make my voice heard

•If you have a season ticket in the Bburn End is your opinion worth less than someone who pays more for a ST in the JW central but worth more than someone in the Riverside outer?

from the perspective of propsective owners who are venture capitalists I would guess that your opion would be worth about 50%

•I might spend for example £400 a year on my season ticket including extras such as drinks, travel getting to ewood in a season. Some of our overseas fans may well spend over £2,000 travelling over to see only 4 games a year. If i lived in North America I doubt i would do that. Does this mean that I am a better SUPPORTER but a worse FAN than them?

Exactlly - as viewed by the prospective owners

Damage, If all this panned out as you suspected, what to you think the most likely outcome and future scenario for Rovers would be if the DW consortium takes over.

I don't mean doomsday or worst case, just how you think it will pan out.

Propsective owners are venture capitalists who will want / NEED to make a handsome profit within a relatively short time frame. They will think they can do this but I dont think the numbers stackup - I think they overestimate the marketability of BRFC or the possibilities for extra income from Champs League. Face it the top4 is now a virtual closed-shop unless SERIOUS money is going to be spent. I worry that they will be at the mercy of the markets or investor whim and will have to liquidate assets at short notice leading to fire-sale of players, search for buyer for club and downward spiral. Look at the current markets and problems with mortagages in the US. Nobody has a clue what is happening and who may be exposed. Who knows what sort of impact this type of scenarios would have on a DW/Plainfield owned BRFC.

At best they would look to sell the club in the medium-term - this time a sale unfettered by terms of the trust.

I cant seem to balance any benefits (what are they?) against the risks. I say lets wait and find a better propsect.

(just curious - for the record I am very concerned about the deal and won't be overly sorry if it falls through. On the other hand I know nothing about the selling a club, the need to sell our club, the alternative interested parties and the intentions of DW)

[philipl]

It is a shame that damage is letting rather divisive comments on the relative merits of catagories of supporters get in the way of his points about the future of the club.

I fall at both ends of his spectrum - very close to the top if you count season tickets and sponsorships pre-Jack. Very close to the bottom if you count matches attended in recent seasons.

[Eddie]

You arent reading what he is saying properly.

Looking at the spend WITH THE CLUB is vital for any business.

Relatively speaking he contributes nothing, so his opinion is worth nothing. It's yet another local who thinks he is more important than a foreign fan purely on the basis that his location allows him to turn up more often. I appreciate that it is important to have people going to games, so you obviously don't want to annoy those in the surrounding area, but that doesn't make them better or mean that the opinions of those who aren't able to do so shouldn't be considered. He has no idea how much money foreign fans may directly or indirectly contribute to the club.

[Eddie]

You know the most idiotic point about your posts damage, you talk as if you know what these potential owners want to do and how they have assessed the club.

[Damage]

Well, let me play devils advocate here.

It the big picture, ST-holders are not the big buck post in the budget. TV-money is.

More viewers = more expensiv TV rights = more money to the club

More foreign supporters = more viewers

I would agree with you Rainmaker. And maybe that is how propsective owners are thinking ........ but it will not be foreign BRFC supporters that generate more TV revenues as there are not enough of them. Rather it will be MUFC/LFC/CFC/AFC supporters that generate extra TV revenues for SKY and, indirectly, all premiership clubs.

[stuwilky]

Relatively speaking he contributes nothing, so his opinion is worth nothing. It's yet another local who thinks he is more important than a foreign fan purely on the basis that his location allows him to turn up more often.

You are still struggling Eddie.

He is viewing it from the point of a potential new owner....

And the interest there is the bottom line.

[Damage]

It is a shame that damage is letting rather divisive comments on the relative merits of catagories of supporters get in the way of his points about the future of the club.

I fall at both ends of his spectrum - very close to the top if you count season tickets and sponsorships pre-Jack. Very close to the bottom if you count matches attended in recent seasons.

But the thing is Philip, that my catgeorisation of fans/supporters will be EXACTLY how prospective owners will be looking at things! "Who is worth what?"

I am not making a value-judgement about anyone (except maybe Eddie ) just pointing out how people will be judged by the money men, and trying to push my own point of view on the takeover. After all there are many on here who have already swallowed the "land of milk and honey" theory being touted by others.

[Eddie]

I think any business man would be very, very interested in any fan willing to spend hundreds or thousands of pounds just to see a game or two. In many ways they could see it as something of an untapped market for the club, with people who are really willing to part with serious money.

[Damage]

You know the most idiotic point about your posts damage, you talk as if you know what these potential owners want to do and how they have assessed the club.

Well maybe if they provided us with some information about their intentions we could decide whether we believed them and whether we thought their intentions were likely to succeed and be in the longer-term interests of BRFC. As yet we have nothing so we can only speculate based on the information at hand - nature of DW/Plainfield business, their financial resources. Oh and the spin put on things by nicko. Take your choice Eddie but I am trying to fight my corner. Please dont get too upset by it as I do not intend to offend anyone - just trying to apply some logic.

[Damage]

I think any business man would be very, very interested in any fan willing to spend hundreds or thousands of pounds just to see a game or two. In many ways they could see it as something of an untapped market for the club, with people who are really willing to part with serious money.

That would make a lot of sense. How many of these supporters do you think there are?

[stuwilky]

I think any business man would be very, very interested in any fan willing to spend hundreds or thousands of pounds just to see a game or two. In many ways they could see it as something of an untapped market for the club, with people who are really willing to part with serious money.

But the VAST VAST majority of money spent isnt going into the club. We can see it as deserving mucho Kudos, but in the eyes of a budget holder they are surely only interested in what benefits them.

[Eddie]

I fully understand that, but they aren't making their trip because of their love of flying are they? I'm quite aware of where the money is being spent, but the reason for spending it is still the same, so from a business point of view that still shows a market where people are willing to spend a lot of money for very little.

Well put Hasta.

[Hasta]

I am sick of the armchairs on here influnecing debate! What input have you made to the club!? ........

Until you have serious committment do not even bother me with your opinions.........

I dont want to offend but I am sick of nouveau armchairs telling me how MY club should be run!

You are still struggling Eddie.

He is viewing it from the point of a potential new owner....

And the interest there is the bottom line.

He's slowly changing his stance Stu.

Damages initial rant which ruffled peoples feathers, partly quoted above, basically says that he personally does not want to listen to the views of armchair supporters. He personally is not interested in your views if you don't have serious commitment and that he is sick of blah blah blah telling him how HIS club should be run.

He wasnt saying that potential buyers should only listen to season ticket holders. He was saying that non-season ticket holders should shut up voicing opinion on this matter incase they make the potential buyers feel welcome, which he doesn't want to happen.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

OK Hard nosed reply here.

This is a thread about potential takeover of the club.

Many people on here are posting very positve opinions about the proposed takeover. Nothing wrong with opinions BUT I want to ensure that current and potential owners are aware of the feeling of people who actively contribute to the clubs revenue streams. Anyone reading this MB would think that 90% of BRFC fans are in favour of DW takeover and that may be correct . However no-one should confuse the opinion of fans with that of supporters. I want to make sure that my voice as a SUPPORTER is heard above the voice of FANS from Ireland/Australia/USA/Devon/Shadworth who do not contribute to the revenue streams of BRFC.

You might ask why I make a distinction when we all love the club? For me it is simple. Owners and propsective owners will view future revenue streams as being of the utmost importance. Apart from TV money where is that future revenue going to come from? Selling shirts in the far east? Internet subscriptions for overseas fans? Selling shirts to punters on the south coast? Or maybe selling season tickets to people who have a long history of previous purchases? IMO anyone looking at BRFC must first and foremost ensure that they keep the FINANCIAL SUPPORT of current ST holders - that must take priority over the sentiment of fans near and far. (I do not want to belittle anyone's emotional connection to the club here. Just stating hard-nosed business logic).

Next we come to possible takeover of the club. It has been inferred that I am opposed to change but this is not true. In fact I would love nothing more than a club that is dynamic on and off the field and welcome any change that is in the longterm interests of the club. However I am against THIS takeover. Mainly because of the nature of the people involved - venture capitalists who I believe will be looking to turn a fast buck but do not understand football or BRFC (however much nicko claims that DW is a rovers FAN!! ). Why do we need to get hitched with the first person to express an interest? Would you marry the first person to give you a compliment? They could turn out to be the world best spouse but just as likely to be a psychopathic axe-killer. There are other options like playing the field and finding a more reliable suitor. However many on this MB are taken in buy the romance of a 25M transfer-fund warchest and a fan-chairman! Nicko has painted a very good portrait (whether intentional or not) but the figures just dont add-up and any concrete "facts" are less than inspiring for me.

I believe the risks are too high for BRFC and we should seek an option that offers greater security. So now I am making it clear to these propspective owners that as a long-standing SUPPORTER I will not meekly accept their using BRFC as a vehicle for profit. Maybe there is not a lot I can do but I WILL NOT SUPPORT their profiteering and will not renew Season Ticket (Adult plus 2 kids) if they try. Of course others may have different opinions but I bet it will take the emotional input of significant numbers of FANS to replace the lost financial support of a single ST holder.

I too share your concerns as many do about this takover and to some extent I understand where your angst comes from damage....the thought of a Risdale type of character ruining this 'old gentleman' of English football with its age old traditions fills me with pure dread,even the mention of moving the ground away from Ewood makes me ill.So many people have worked so damn hard to see this club were it is now and NOBODY wants to lose it.As for your comments about 'I'm a better supporter/longer standing season ticket holder than thee' rant its complete baloney.

In the cold light of morning though you, like us all are going to have to cross your fingers and hope that the powers that be have got this takeover absolutely spot on because it appears by hook or by crook its going to happen very soon and at present in all reality there is little the fan on the street can do or say to influence matters.

LETS HOPE FOR THE BEST.

[unsall]

Listen guys at the end of the day we really can't give an opinion on any takeover because we do not know all the facts,I trust John Williams the board and the trustees and if they think Brfc are better off with these new owners,thats fine by me,the only nagging doubt I have, is,if these potentiol new owners think they can make a profit and lets face it thats the only reason the Yanks are in ,why dont the Walker trust think they can, with all the knowledge/companys they have,I find that very strange,anyway we should all find out shortly............

[Blueandwhitemike]

I am not a businessman.. and i know nothing of venture capitalism or anything related to it... or Dan Williams...

But we have a board and a chairman who have been credited with being good businessmen, of running a tight ship, of knowing what they are doing. I don't really get why people believe they ( and Rothschilds ) will be taken in by some fly by night rip off merchant out to make a quick few quid. Surely they will make sure the money is there to back up there plans etc. They will know a hell of a lot more about Dan Williams and his backers financial abilities than any of us do.

I have doubts... but small ones and in general I trust the people in charge at the moment to make the right decision for the club.

Have a bit of faith

[Damage]

He's slowly changing his stance Stu.

Damages initial rant which ruffled peoples feathers, partly quoted above, basically says that he personally does not want to listen to the views of armchair supporters. He personally is not interested in your views if you don't have serious commitment and that he is sick of blah blah blah telling him how HIS club should be run.

He wasnt saying that potential buyers should only listen to season ticket holders. He was saying that non-season ticket holders should shut up voicing opinion on this matter incase they make the potential buyers feel welcome, which he doesn't want to happen.

Yes you're interpretation is correct Hasta.

At 3:20 in the morning after several drinks I did have something of a rant and for the most part I will admit that my spleen was being vented against people who are supportive of the takeover. At the time it seemed to me that many/most of those in favour were dreaming of the £25M - about what players could be bought with that money but without any consideration of whether the numbers were accurate or what longer term consequences might be. It also appeared to me that the people most in favour are the ones who dont actually live local or attend matches - Im thinking that if you live abroad as a rovers fan surrounded by lots of big4 fans maybe its hard to be a rover and £25m would be good to stuff it over the big boys for once! Dont worry about the consequences because .... well I can also go back to the nfl or gaelic football or aussie rules!

Maybe that analysis is somewhat flawed but at the time it was how I felt and probably still do to an extent. I live in Blackburn and have no real need to worry about if its fashionable to support BRFC. There are many of us around here so I dont need a "glitz injection" to make me walk tall when Im in the shopping mall or the local bar - im already proud of my club. They dont have to sign carlos tevez to make me prouder!

As you can tell this isnt a well thought out argument just my feelings. What I have thought about today is how I can counter the baseless positive spin that has been acquired by the DW/Plainfield takeover on this MB. I make no apologies for this and if I can influence the dabate in any way I will view that as success.

[Damage]

But we have a board and a chairman who have been credited with being good businessmen, of running a tight ship, of knowing what they are doing. I don't really get why people believe they ( and Rothschilds ) will be taken in by some fly by night rip off merchant out to make a quick few quid. Surely they will make sure the money is there to back up there plans etc.

I really hope you're right!

However I do have to point out that although I would certainkly agree that JW has done well for BRFC, his (& Rothschilds) responsibility is to serve the best interests of shareholders. Up to this point the interests of shareholders and BRFC supports/fans have been well aligned but how do you know that those interests remain aligned?

[Rover down South]

I agree with most of what you say, I too am worried that the takeover could be bad for the club, but we just have to trust JW & the trustees. Leeds showed everyone what can happen. That could quite easily happen to West Ham & Man City. I for one am happy with the way MH has moulded a side together who are capable of top ten finishes, europe & a good cup run.

I was a bit shocked by your comments of "armchair fans" & "shouldn't have as much of an opinion as me." Just because I live down south & because others live abroad doesn't mean that the club isn't as important to us. I speak for myself here & probably all other fans in my situation, that if Ewood Park was more local, I'd be there attending every match.

If you are a fan of the club you are entitled to an opinion no matter what.

I have attended games when we've been doing well & when we were relegated. Blackburn are my club through good & bad times, nothing will change that. I will continue to go when it is possible for me.

[Eddie]

Yes you're interpretation is correct Hasta.

At 3:20 in the morning after several drinks I did have something of a rant and for the most part I will admit that my spleen was being vented against people who are supportive of the takeover. At the time it seemed to me that many/most of those in favour were dreaming of the £25M - about what players could be bought with that money but without any consideration of whether the numbers were accurate or what longer term consequences might be. It also appeared to me that the people most in favour are the ones who dont actually live local or attend matches - Im thinking that if you live abroad as a rovers fan surrounded by lots of big4 fans maybe its hard to be a rover and £25m would be good to stuff it over the big boys for once! Dont worry about the consequences because .... well I can also go back to the nfl or gaelic football or aussie rules!

Maybe that analysis is somewhat flawed but at the time it was how I felt and probably still do to an extent. I live in Blackburn and have no real need to worry about if its fashionable to support BRFC. There are many of us around here so I dont need a "glitz injection" to make me walk tall when Im in the shopping mall or the local bar - im already proud of my club. They dont have to sign carlos tevez to make me prouder!

I think you couldn't be further from truth. A high percentage, if not the majority, of "foreign" rovers fans are ex-pats, if not the majority of the rest are die hard converts. Now I'm sure there are one or two out there who feel like that, but then there are probably plenty of locals, probably even some season ticket holders, who will feel the same way. Our passion for the club is just as great as anyone's and, regardless of whatever method you want to use to calculate our worth, importance or entitlement to an opinion, to me that is the most important. Everyone on here has the best interest of the club at heart and if you read back through this topic I think you would find that every single poster has expressed some sort of doubt over the topic, but a good number are willing to put some trust in the current trustees and board and realise that we will most likely eventually find ourselves in a situation where we won't be able to compete and that is not something any of us want.

[1864roverite]

....and here was born AFC Lancashire.... a team formed out of frustrated fans of beleagured Blackburn Rovers FC, who saw fit to castigate the club akin to the Glazier takeover at manure a few years earlier. Out of pure frustration and obstinate views, a small disgruntled set of supporters cashed in their season tickets, sold their shirts and scarves and left Ewwod Park in their twos to form the new team now known as AFC Lancashire.

AFC Lancashire will begin their lives in div 10 of the southern Lancashire amateur league sharing a pitch with their close neighbours sheepshearers XX and will play in front of a capacity crowd of 3 men and their dogs each Saturday as they begin the long haul journey back to the football league, an adventure set to test the most ardent of frustrated supporters.

An AFC Lancashire spokesperson, aka Damage said "I had to make the stand, I couldnt take it any more and I was wholly untrusting of all the media hype and suggestions that the new multibillionaire owner of Blackburn Rovers, Dan "the man" Williams, and his idea that a cool 25m a season input was seen to the very few who see with clear unobstruction perpiheral vision and insight of how clubs should be run, to put Rovers in an very unstable position as they marched to an historic 2nd Premiership win against the odds. I just couldnt stand by and watch Rovers do the impossible and had to think with my feet and toes to make this 3 man stand to protest at how the club was now being run, I mean it just aint right is it ?"......

The takeover will happen and Rovers WILL be better off, its as simple as that.

Get back behind the club, The Walkers known exactly what the club needs, The Club knows exactly what it needs and it will only do whats BEST for THEM.

[Damage]

An AFC Lancashire spokesperson, aka Damage said "I had to make the stand, I couldnt take it any more and I was wholly untrusting of all the media hype and suggestions that the new multibillionaire owner of Blackburn Rovers, Dan "the man" Williams, and his idea that a cool 25m a season input was seen to the very few who see with clear unobstruction perpiheral vision and insight of how clubs should be run, to put Rovers in an very unstable position as they marched to an historic 2nd Premiership win against the odds. I just couldnt stand by and watch Rovers do the impossible and had to think with my feet and toes to make this 3 man stand to protest at how the club was now being run, I mean it just aint right is it ?"......

The takeover will happen and Rovers WILL be better off, its as simple as that.

Get back behind the club, The Walkers known exactly what the club needs, The Club knows exactly what it needs and it will only do whats BEST for THEM.

Yeah Yeah Yeah!

Dan Williams is a multi-billionaire???

25m a season input???

You are completely deluded if you believe that. And it is precisely the "dreamer" attitude exhibited by the likes of yourself that I am trying to counter.

In your rush to the dream you are completely overlooking the risks.

If the Walkers know excatly what the club needs why do they want to sell?

Who is "the Club"? And who are "them" that the "club" will be doing whats best for?

[1864roverite]

Damage old chap, you sem to take things ever so seriously. My little post was in fact an attempt at humour.

I am one of those fans who you suggest that you admire from the 80's and having a ST in that era, JHC I was, among others from this board, a visitor to Ewood in the 70's as well.

I am not over illusioned by the proposed takeover and I do not harbor dreams of a 25m a year input, come on mate, seriously, we are BRFC not mankyure or mankycity.

I want whats best for Rovers, and if it means being sold then so be it. I dont hanker to the media reports and I certainly dont hanker to the pure speculation and feverism spreading throughout this board from people who ONLY think what is happening and who base their views on media speculation and feverish internet surfing in trying to out our proposed buyers.

I will only believe and accept what comes from the mouth of BRFC in the form of an official announcement.

Its about time that people realise that once Rovers make an official comment then only at THAT point can we being to speculate, criticise or praise. Thats about it in a nutshell mate.

[John]

As Sparky says himself: "A new buyer will have to prove they can come in and move the club forward and, if they cannot prove that, I am sure the trustees of the club will not sell."