[Archived] Rovers Sold ??

[thenodrog]

Don't know why you 2 are dissing shillitoe ..... he's right! Would you 2 sink big money into some club that you have probably never heard of, thats half way around the globe and that has not a cat in hells chance of even offering a financial return? As a football club under Hughes we have some potential but as a business / investment we really have none. We've been for sale for yonks and nobody has turned up yet with a cheque.

If you cannot understand the obvious then I suggest that you write to M Mouse, Disneyland and ask him..... you're prob daft enough to.

[RevidgeBlue]

It's very simple, they have more supporters.

More supporters = more potential income.

Something Rovers will never have, which is why we will always be unattractive to everyone, in every way.

A few more supporters is surely more or less irrelevant in the current TV age. All that matters is being part of the global TV brand that is the Premiership - something Derby certainly can't guarantee and probably can't even provide on anything like a regular basis.

I can't honestly see Derby County being a more attractive draw than Blackburn Rovers in the Far East if I'm being honest.

[Uddersfelt Blue]

I can't honestly see Derby County being a more attractive draw than Blackburn Rovers in the Far East if I'm being honest.

Too right. Even that guy holding up the tanks in Tianammen Square was a Rovers fan! Pretty used to being a downtrodden by the mighty but prepared to put up a fight.

Lets face it, even if we won the Premiership again we're never going to be as popular as the city clubs who are just getting bigger because of their global appeal. But that doesn't mean we can't be a team that neutral fans like to watch. As long as we play attractive football that should stand us in good stead.

[yoda]

Too right. Even that guy holding up the tanks in Tianammen Square was a Rovers fan! Pretty used to being a downtrodden by the mighty but prepared to put up a fight.

Lets face it, even if we won the Premiership again we're never going to be as popular as the city clubs who are just getting bigger because of their global appeal. But that doesn't mean we can't be a team that neutral fans like to watch. As long as we play attractive football that should stand us in good stead.

Too right,

What always seems to be forgoten is the fact that the top 4 would be useless without the rest of the league!

If they think they can waltz off and form a super league with some other European clubs , let them, lets see how long it lasts without honest down to earth clubs playing each other!

Can you imagine the cost of travelling to away games all season

[Uddersfelt Blue]

Too right,

What always seems to be forgoten is the fact that the top 4 would be useless without the rest of the league!

If they think they can waltz off and form a super league with some other European clubs , let them, lets see how long it lasts without honest down to earth clubs playing each other!

Can you imagine the cost of travelling to away games all season

By the sounds of things many United fans are already fed up of forking out a small fortune just to watch home games (that excludes the travel from London)

[S15]

I can't believe how blinkered/or stupid some of you are.

Of course to someone in far east Derby are more attractive...

THEY HAVE MORE FANS.

It's like saying your local cornershop would be a more attractive business to buy than Tesco just because they have better service or something.

FANS=CUSTOMERS, AND WE DON'T HAVE MANY.

Get over it, or just keep pretending some zillionnaire Jap is going to come and throw all his/her money at us.

[philipl]

I can't believe how blinkered/or stupid some of you are.

Of course to someone in far east Derby are more attractive...

THEY HAVE MORE FANS.

It's like saying your local cornershop would be a more attractive business to buy than Tesco just because they have better service or something.

FANS=CUSTOMERS, AND WE DON'T HAVE MANY.

Get over it, or just keep pretending some zillionnaire Jap is going to come and throw all his/her money at us.

Have you looked at the League table recently?

Derby would need to have an additional 50,000 fans through the turnstiles paying an average of £30 a head every home game to make up the difference between their media income next year and our's.

[RevidgeBlue]

I can't believe how blinkered/or stupid some of you are.

Of course to someone in far east Derby are more attractive...

THEY HAVE MORE FANS.

It's like saying your local cornershop would be a more attractive business to buy than Tesco just because they have better service or something.

FANS=CUSTOMERS, AND WE DON'T HAVE MANY.

Get over it, or just keep pretending some zillionnaire Jap is going to come and throw all his/her money at us.

Are you on a deliberate wind up? If so it's not a particularly funny one, if you're not, you're making yourself look completely stupid.

Over two seasons Rovers 80m TV revenue and place income, or relegated Derby in relative terms zilch TV money and place income?.

Which is the most attractive to the potential investor?

And when I said "far East" I meant the viewing TV public not potential investors. Which I'm sure everyone else understood apart from you.

[S15]

Oh my, really finding it hard to take this aren't we?

If an investor comes is, they plan on investing. They would give money to strengthen the team, therefore expecting quite easily to be at Rovers level (Finished 10th last season, 6th previous, 15th previous and looking between 6th-10th this season) at which point they would ask, ''Well who would be easier to take further/who would bring more income?''

Rovers lose every time. We would still struggle to sell our allocation at Champions League final. Even a club like Derby could realistically expand to 40,000 if they were to progress even to the moderately decent level we're at (in the bigger picture). We never could.

I'm not bitter; upset; In fact I'm just not bothered, but I can see it as stone cold fact. Why it's annoying/upsetting so many of you is beyond me. It's almost like small man/flash car syndrome. Just accept it'll never happen fella's, in fact celebrate it, it's nothing to be bothered about.

[yoda]

Oh my, really finding it hard to take this aren't we?

If an investor comes is, they plan on investing. They would give money to strengthen the team, therefore expecting quite easily to be at Rovers level (Finished 10th last season, 6th previous, 15th previous and looking between 6th-10th this season) at which point they would ask, ''Well who would be easier to take further/who would bring more income?''

Rovers lose every time. We would still struggle to sell our allocation at Champions League final. Even a club like Derby could realistically expand to 40,000 if they were to progress even to the moderately decent level we're at (in the bigger picture). We never could.

I'm not bitter; upset; In fact I'm just not bothered, but I can see it as stone cold fact. Why it's annoying/upsetting so many of you is beyond me. It's almost like small man/flash car syndrome. Just accept it'll never happen fella's, in fact celebrate it, it's nothing to be bothered about.

You havn't a clue about supporting a football club, everytime I go to China I have to take Rovers memrobilia for an increasing number of new supporters, the Rovers have a fine tradition and history something which the far eastern cultures value highly, if done in the right way the Rovers could develope a very healthy support from various aian countries, the fact that the Rovers are established in the PL and Derby are going out of it gives us a massive head start.

[bob fleming]

If you cannot understand the obvious then I suggest that you write to M Mouse, Disneyland and ask him..... you're prob daft enough to.

I am, and while I'm at it I'll ask whose idea "Lancashire United" was, yours or his.

[RevidgeBlue]

Oh my, really finding it hard to take this aren't we?

If an investor comes is, they plan on investing. They would give money to strengthen the team, therefore expecting quite easily to be at Rovers level (Finished 10th last season, 6th previous, 15th previous and looking between 6th-10th this season) at which point they would ask, ''Well who would be easier to take further/who would bring more income?''

Rovers lose every time. We would still struggle to sell our allocation at Champions League final. Even a club like Derby could realistically expand to 40,000 if they were to progress even to the moderately decent level we're at (in the bigger picture). We never could.

I'm not bitter; upset; In fact I'm just not bothered, but I can see it as stone cold fact. Why it's annoying/upsetting so many of you is beyond me. It's almost like small man/flash car syndrome. Just accept it'll never happen fella's, in fact celebrate it, it's nothing to be bothered about.

I'm not the one that's hung up on the relatively small difference between the attendances of the two clubs, you seem to be the one obsessed with that and imo the difference in income that entails is relatively insignificant in the bigger picture.

I disagree with you completely, imo it would cost a potential investor an absolute fortune to put Derby on a roughly level footing with us on the playing side. 60m? A far smaller investment than that would probably see us in the Champions League. The only advantage I can see in buying Derby (presumably after relegation) is that the initial purchase price would be a lot cheaper than buying Rovers.

Not trying to pretend that we're a good investment in the normal sense of the word, we're probably not, then again I'm not sure any football club is. However if there is ever any money to be made from it in future it's only going to be as an integral part of the Premiership brand.

Which Derby probably won't be.

[S15]

You havn't a clue about supporting a football club, everytime I go to China I have to take Rovers memrobilia for an increasing number of new supporters, the Rovers have a fine tradition and history something which the far eastern cultures value highly, if done in the right way the Rovers could develope a very healthy support from various aian countries, the fact that the Rovers are established in the PL and Derby are going out of it gives us a massive head start.

Right... Does purchasing a season ticket for 14 years not count as supporting a football club?

By 'supporters' do you mean the same kind of people who turn up to scream and cry when David Beckham turns up in their country, just because they think they might like football.

Think it's more of a FAD to them TBH.

Rev, I think we should just agree to disagree, our arguments aren't going to change each others mind... My point is once we were in the Champions League that's it, game completed. Derby on the other hand, due to geography and fan base could become a larger force than us in that situation.

Neither will ever happen, so does it really matter?

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

You havn't a clue about supporting a football club, everytime I go to China I have to take Rovers memrobilia for an increasing number of new supporters, the Rovers have a fine tradition and history something which the far eastern cultures value highly, if done in the right way the Rovers could develope a very healthy support from various aian countries, the fact that the Rovers are established in the PL and Derby are going out of it gives us a massive head start.

Spot on Yoda,Rovers are very marketable in foreign countries.We have some top international players in the distinctive blue and white shirts,our great history and tradition and also the fact that we have been in the Prem for 13 seasons of its 15 year existance.I have said it many a time but so many local folk seem all too happy to put the club down with their small town mentality.

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Then again with a commercial dept like ours who cant even organise a decent club shop perhaps we fall at the first hurdle everyime.

[USABlue]

Oh my, really finding it hard to take this aren't we?

If an investor comes is, they plan on investing. They would give money to strengthen the team, therefore expecting quite easily to be at Rovers level (Finished 10th last season, 6th previous, 15th previous and looking between 6th-10th this season) at which point they would ask, ''Well who would be easier to take further/who would bring more income?''

Rovers lose every time. We would still struggle to sell our allocation at Champions League final. Even a club like Derby could realistically expand to 40,000 if they were to progress even to the moderately decent level we're at (in the bigger picture). We never could.

I'm not bitter; upset; In fact I'm just not bothered, but I can see it as stone cold fact. Why it's annoying/upsetting so many of you is beyond me. It's almost like small man/flash car syndrome. Just accept it'll never happen fella's, in fact celebrate it, it's nothing to be bothered about.

Surely even the 1/2 mil per place in the table is more than Derby's extra income from support. Your key point there is IF. You assume way too much, you take for granted that throwing cash at it will have a team like Derby at Rovers level, I find that quite asinine. If you care to argue that look at the teams below us and their spending, blind man on a galloping horse can see that money is no guarantee of success, the Football league is littered with big spenders who failed, won nowt, and are now playing lower league footy. Wake up.

The Championship has more than it's fair share of potentially big clubs, none of them have ever been able to sustain a Premiership place with the sort of longevity that we have and they have all spent oodles of cash over the years. They have the support, they've had the cash and they have the Stadia but they can't get a team together to live comfortably in the Prem.

So, I'd have to say Rovers are a much more attractive thing if you are looking for a return, the others are a bit of a gamble.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Everyone seems to be forgetting a fundamental issue, the actual value of the clubs and most importantly, the figure at which the owners will sell at. As we have seen with the Williams and other proposed bidders, they have struggled to meet the trusts asking price,( imo is to high , for a serious investor ) and this as much as anything may be putting potential buyers off. Whilst in the case of Derby a possible low valuation seems a more attractive proposal, no matter what predicament they are in the league.

[philipl]

OK Shillitoe, here's a list of clubs:

Derby Co, Nottingham Forest, Leicester C, Norwich C, Ipswich T, Coventry C, Wolves, West Brom, Stoke City, Sheff Wed, Sheff Utd, Huddersfield T, Bradford C, Hull City, MK Dons, Southampton, Bristol C, Plymouth Argyle, Cardiff C, Swansea C.

20 clubs- a whole Premiership of them in fact. All with modern 20,000++ seater stadiums (OK Cardiff's is being built), all with local populations at least double that of Blackburn's, none with 6 other Premiership clubs within 40 miles of the stadium.

Everyone of them a sure fire better bet than Rovers.

Everyone of them deserving of permanent Premiership status... But then there are the Watfords and all the London clubs and who knows, Burnley or Preston or Scunthorpe (well Barnsley and Swindon were Prem clubs) which get in the way of them clsiming their rightful places.

Let's face it, the ordinary board members of everyone of them would swap places to be at Blackburn without a moment's hesitation if offered the chance.

The reality is, they are all much of a muchness and there is so many of them. From a neutral investor's standpoint, why one of them rather than another?

....and then there's Leeds.

[Eddie]

Everyone seems to be forgetting a fundamental issue, the actual value of the clubs and most importantly, the figure at which the owners will sell at. As we have seen with the Williams and other proposed bidders, they have struggled to meet the trusts asking price,( imo is to high , for a serious investor ) and this as much as anything may be putting potential buyers off. Whilst in the case of Derby a possible low valuation seems a more attractive proposal, no matter what predicament they are in the league.

If Nicko is to be believed, which personally I do, wasn't a big problem the fact that originally Williams was actually willing to pay more than what the trust will sell at. The sticking point in that particular instance seems to have been the long-term finances.

[yoda]

Right... Does purchasing a season ticket for 14 years not count as supporting a football club?

By 'supporters' do you mean the same kind of people who turn up to scream and cry when David Beckham turns up in their country, just because they think they might like football.

Think it's more of a FAD to them TBH.

Rev, I think we should just agree to disagree, our arguments aren't going to change each others mind... My point is once we were in the Champions League that's it, game completed. Derby on the other hand, due to geography and fan base could become a larger force than us in that situation.

Neither will ever happen, so does it really matter?

[/quote

Right... Does purchasing a season ticket for 14 years not count as supporting a football club?

14 years and you still have not realised how unique a club like Blackburn Rovers is!

[philipl]

Everyone seems to be forgetting a fundamental issue, the actual value of the clubs and most importantly, the figure at which the owners will sell at. As we have seen with the Williams and other proposed bidders, they have struggled to meet the trusts asking price,( imo is to high , for a serious investor ) and this as much as anything may be putting potential buyers off. Whilst in the case of Derby a possible low valuation seems a more attractive proposal, no matter what predicament they are in the league.

How many times have we gone over this old chestnut of misunderstanding? Are you incapable of reading and understanding?

Selling/asking price is NOT the issue on the Rovers sale. Your post is completely wrong in that respect.

Being able to pump more money into Rovers ad infinitum than the Trust is required by the Walker Settlement and is willing to is the sticking point. Effectively, the Trust is asking any potential owner to back themselves and invest into their ownership of the club by pumping in more than the Trust does. Without that unambiguously being the case, the Trust cannot legally divest itself of Blackburn Rovers. Only when that hurdle is crossed would there be any discussion of valuations and my guess- and I stress it is my guess- nobody has yet engaged Rothschilds in a meaningful discussion on sale price because the terms in Jack's will have yet to have been satisfied by anybody.

As I've explained before, on a discounted cash flow basis, something over £100m is needed BUT that is not money to go into the Trust's pockets. The vast majority of it is to match the Trust's ongoing inflation-adjusting currently £7m a year payment to the Rovers.

That is why Cheshire Blue and others are effectively saying any entity with less than £500m to £1 billion in assets is pretty well wasting their time looking at the Rovers.

Derby County is a totally different kettle of fish and with recently past Directors facing criminal charges connected with their stewardship, a lot of potential investors won't touch it.

[Eddie]

That is why Cheshire Blue and others are effectively saying any entity with less than £500m to £1 billion in assets is pretty well wasting their time looking at the Rovers.

Which is also totally wrong.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

How many times have we gone over this old chestnut of misunderstanding? Are you incapable of reading and understanding?

Selling/asking price is NOT the issue on the Rovers sale. Your post is completely wrong in that respect.

Being able to pump more money into Rovers ad infinitum than the Trust is required by the Walker Settlement and is willing to is the sticking point. Effectively, the Trust is asking any potential owner to back themselves and invest into their ownership of the club by pumping in more than the Trust does. Without that unambiguously being the case, the Trust cannot legally divest itself of Blackburn Rovers. Only when that hurdle is crossed would there be any discussion of valuations and my guess- and I stress it is my guess- nobody has yet engaged Rothschilds in a meaningful discussion on sale price because the terms in Jack's will have yet to have been satisfied by anybody.

As I've explained before, on a discounted cash flow basis, something over £100m is needed BUT that is not money to go into the Trust's pockets. The vast majority of it is to match the Trust's ongoing inflation-adjusting currently £7m a year payment to the Rovers.

That is why Cheshire Blue and others are effectively saying any entity with less than £500m to £1 billion in assets is pretty well wasting their time looking at the Rovers.

Derby County is a totally different kettle of fish and with recently past Directors facing criminal charges connected with their stewardship, a lot of potential investors won't touch it.

The trouble is PIP, I tend to ignore the vast majority of posts. You have an insatiable lust to look important and “appear connected”, you clearly have no more connections within the club than any pretty much goes for everyone else on this board. You tend to fool quite a lot of people with your posturing and nicely written posts; however there are a few people on this board who are not suckered in by you.

You are clearly intelligent, so why do you feel the need stoop to such petty levels with your baiting, petty arguments and self-policing of the site. Maybe you have too much time on your hands?

IMO If Nicko’s information is correct ,then that particular selling price is the very top end of what that the trust could expect to get. This is my opinion, you nor anyone else will change this until the club the sold . If the trustees are desperate to find an investor then in my opinion they should think of lowering there asking price. The trouble is that no-one outside of rothchilds and a few important figures within the club have any clue regarding the nity-gritty of any proposed deal and that includes you PhilpL

[Eddie]

It's quite clear that they aren't desperate to find an investor, they simply realise that one will be needed at some point so they may as well start looking now. I have to admit that I'm a little surprised that the club isn't undervalued when sold, with conditions written in concerning future investment, I sort of expected that the trust would have wanted to take care of Rovers in that sort of way.

[yoda]

How many times have we gone over this old chestnut of misunderstanding? Are you incapable of reading and understanding?

Selling/asking price is NOT the issue on the Rovers sale. Your post is completely wrong in that respect.

Being able to pump more money into Rovers ad infinitum than the Trust is required by the Walker Settlement and is willing to is the sticking point. Effectively, the Trust is asking any potential owner to back themselves and invest into their ownership of the club by pumping in more than the Trust does. Without that unambiguously being the case, the Trust cannot legally divest itself of Blackburn Rovers. Only when that hurdle is crossed would there be any discussion of valuations and my guess- and I stress it is my guess- nobody has yet engaged Rothschilds in a meaningful discussion on sale price because the terms in Jack's will have yet to have been satisfied by anybody.

As I've explained before, on a discounted cash flow basis, something over £100m is needed BUT that is not money to go into the Trust's pockets. The vast majority of it is to match the Trust's ongoing inflation-adjusting currently £7m a year payment to the Rovers.

That is why Cheshire Blue and others are effectively saying any entity with less than £500m to £1 billion in assets is pretty well wasting their time looking at the Rovers.

Derby County is a totally different kettle of fish and with recently past Directors facing criminal charges connected with their stewardship, a lot of potential investors won't touch it.

The discounted cash flow would only come into play when a purchase has been made, someone has to ring fence a sum of money that will produce the £7 million a year plus inflation for the term stated in the trust, I don't think anyone has yet discovered what that time scale is, it is probably a long period to provide stability. So a purchase price of say £45 to £50 Million plus the ring fenced money, which would have to be in the region of at least £150 to £200 to generate the yearly donation, anyone with £250 to £300 Million cash would be in a position to buy, subject to being thouroughly nice people with Blue and White eyes!

[philipl]

The trouble is I tend to ignore the vast majority of posts.

Thank you for proving my point.

There are posts in this thread from people who very clearly have the knowledge you do not have.