[Archived] West Ham Fined £5.5m

[stuwilky]

Wasn't the judgement against West Ham made by the Premier League? And aren't they a different organisation than the FA? Or are they all part of the same organisation?

It depends how cynical you are. The FA Premier League?

[Flopsy]

Premier leagues separate, I believe from the FA.

Possibly

[philipl]

Paul Jewell rant suggests other London Prem sides do the same as West Ham, Prem officials wanted them to beat WHam and that Accy set the precedent.

[philipl]

Just gets more confused. Who knows what is going to happen.

The FA and Prem must be desperate for West Ham to go down "naturally"!

[blue phil]

It'll be interesting to see how Leeds are treated if they go into administration before the end of this season . Will they get the predicted 10 point deduction this season or the next ? If it's not the latter then it'd be taking the pi$$ IMO .

[Billy Castell]

Maybe they can delete every goal that Tevez has been involved in up until the decision was taken.......................

[92er]

What I now find a little intriguing is the current situation regarding Tevez. I am sure I read that Tevez played against Wigan on Saturday because WH tore up the contract they had for him and yet I am also sure I have read that he might miss the next 2 matches as they cannot terms over his transfer (BBC teletext?)

[colin]

There is some interesting comment on The Guardian's blog site at

here

It does go on a bit (as these things tend to do,) but I was struck by this post which seemed to sum everything up quite nicely.

It is nice to see this piece (and the Samuel article, which makes a presuasive case for me that loans amongst Premier League teams should not be allowed under any circumstances). I thought that the media were going to ignore this issue, as I had seen little comment on it over the weekend.

Going down "the mitigating factors":

West Ham United changed their plea to guilty at the 11th hour - this would be a factor in criminal proceedings, but it is not clear why this is applicable here.

New owners - so what? What happened to corporate responsibility? The new owners have sure as hell had the benefit of Tevez all these months.

Had West Ham disclosed the Argentinian players' contracts when they signed, the club could have amended the arrangements in ways which would have been acceptable to the Premier League - but the fact that they didn't makes them in breach of the rules. This is a circular argument.

Because the hearing took place this late in the season the commission decided that a points deduction "would have consigned the club to certain relegation" - Again, so what? The fact that this has dragged on would appear to be the fault of the Premier League. And is West Ham's bad form to be an excuse for not punishing them? Pathetic. Further, when the two signed it was widely reported at the time that their "ownership" arrangements were peculiar, so it could have been looked at even earlier. If it was, and West Ham misled the PL, isn't a harsh punishment appropriate?

Tevez featured in further West Ham games after the charges were brought on January 24. The Premier League had the power to stop him playing but did not - Again, this was the Premier League's mistake for not getting organised, and ignores the part Tevez played in garnering points for West Ham prior to this.

West Ham's players and fans "are in no way to blame for this situation" - neither were Middlesbrough fans in 1997, or Swindon fans in 1990, or Bury fans this year...

After the change of ownership the club itself brought the breaches of the rules to the attention of the Premier League - good for them. Again, the club had benefitted from the arrangement prior to this and continued to do so thereafter.

Even added together, these spurious mitigating factors don't add up to much. It was a fit up. Jewell and Warnock are bang on. Wigan, Watford and Sheffield United would likely not have been treated so leniently.

Incidentally, it is yet possible a draw between Sheffield United and Wigan on the last day of the season will relegate West Ham. It will be interesting to see the reaction of West Ham if this comes to pass...

I love that observation in the last two lines. Fingers crossed that it happens eh?

[stuwilky]

It'll be interesting to see how Leeds are treated if they go into administration before the end of this season . Will they get the predicted 10 point deduction this season or the next ? If it's not the latter then it'd be taking the pi$$ IMO .

The rules used to state that if the administration document was signed before the final whistle on the final game of the season it was classed as the same season.

I had heard they were changing it to 1st April - but I cant find confirmation of that.

[joey_big_nose]

Im stilla bit confused as to what West Ham have done wrong? Is this all down to a fililng error or is it more henious than that?

If it is just a filing error it all actually seems a bit harsh to me. What was the wrong doing? Even Wikipedia has not shed any light....

I understand they didn't hand over some infomation regarding the player, but what was that piece of infomation?

[neekoy]

Let's cross the fingers

[Paul]

It'll be interesting to see how Leeds are treated if they go into administration before the end of this season . Will they get the predicted 10 point deduction this season or the next ? If it's not the latter then it'd be taking the pi$$ IMO .

According to The Independent in the last few days, Leeds have been advised to go into administration before the end of the season as this will mean the points deduction is for the current season and not the next. You're right, it is taking the pi$$

[gumboots]

Im stilla bit confused as to what West Ham have done wrong? Is this all down to a fililng error or is it more henious than that?

If it is just a filing error it all actually seems a bit harsh to me. What was the wrong doing? Even Wikipedia has not shed any light....

I understand they didn't hand over some infomation regarding the player, but what was that piece of infomation?

The players were not owned straightforwardly by another club but by a 3rd party. Prem rules say you cannot legally sign players who are owned by someone who might influence your team selection etc. West Ham didn't admit that they did not own these players outright. In fact they lied and said they had handed over all the papers regarding their ownership. They said they would defend themselves against claims that this had happened but then when they realised they'd be more likely to be dealt with more leniently if they owned up they pleaded guilty as charged. This affected the judgement - that's admitted in the reasons for giving them a fine. So they cheated, thought they'd got away with it, got caught, finally admitted they'd done it so got fined for it. And in the meantime Mr Tevez was earning them points here there and at Ewood! It stinks!

[joey_big_nose]

The players were not owned straightforwardly by another club but by a 3rd party. Prem rules say you cannot legally sign players who are owned by someone who might influence your team selection etc. West Ham didn't admit that they did not own these players outright. In fact they lied and said they had handed over all the papers regarding their ownership. They said they would defend themselves against claims that this had happened but then when they realised they'd be more likely to be dealt with more leniently if they owned up they pleaded guilty as charged. This affected the judgement - that's admitted in the reasons for giving them a fine. So they cheated, thought they'd got away with it, got caught, finally admitted they'd done it so got fined for it. And in the meantime Mr Tevez was earning them points here there and at Ewood! It stinks!

THanks Gumboots, i now sort of understand!

So what I don't understand is why Mascherano and Tevez are still playing post judgement. Are they now owned by their respective clubs?

[Billy Castell]

It'll be interesting to see how Leeds are treated if they go into administration before the end of this season . Will they get the predicted 10 point deduction this season or the next ? If it's not the latter then it'd be taking the pi$$ IMO .

Let's hope the e-mail and fax machine breaks down at Elland Road, so it'll be sent after the season is over!

[Tris]

The legal case Dave Whelan would bring will be spectacular.

I agree with philipl - I look forward to Dave Whelan taking this one to the courts.

The hare is on the move ...

[RevidgeBlue]

The hare is on the move ...

Whilst I sympathise fully with Whelan, Wigan and any other club that may be affected they surely have no case in law if the FA regulations leave punishment for playing an unregistered player up to the FA's discretion.

If the regulations stated that the penalty for playing an unregistered player was 3 points/5 points/10 points etc then yes, any club affected would have a cast iron case.

I think that it's unlikely this applies here otherwise we would have heard more about the specific breach rather than vague threats of court action.

[Tris]

Whilst I sympathise fully with Whelan, Wigan and any other club that may be affected they surely have no case in law if the FA regulations leave punishment for playing an unregistered player up to the FA's discretion.

If the regulations stated that the penalty for playing an unregistered player was 3 points/5 points/10 points etc then yes, any club affected would have a cast iron case.

I think that it's unlikely this applies here otherwise we would have heard more about the specific breach rather than vague threats of court action.

I'm no expert, but I imagine Whelan has engaged some experts.

They will know more than I do about how Milan got back into the Champs League and had their domestic points deduction slashed (not to mention the other cheating Italian clubs).

They will know more than I do about the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne, how it works and how to get there quickly.

Whelan is being very very clever by getting the other "in the balance" clubs to work with him. Who knows what the private agreement is - maybe an initial agreement to share the costs of a legal challenge, a fight to the death on the field, with the winner getting West Ham's PL place and the balance of the legal bill.

Which will be peanuts when compared with the new cash stash.

[stuwilky]

Whilst I sympathise fully with Whelan, Wigan and any other club that may be affected they surely have no case in law if the FA regulations leave punishment for playing an unregistered player up to the FA's discretion.

If the regulations stated that the penalty for playing an unregistered player was 3 points/5 points/10 points etc then yes, any club affected would have a cast iron case.

I think that it's unlikely this applies here otherwise we would have heard more about the specific breach rather than vague threats of court action.

Read the "independant report" Its absolutely full of holes

"We would normally expect a points deduction"

"Its not the fans fault"

There are at least 6 or 7 references to nonsensical "get outs"

[Rainmaker]

Read the "independant report" Its absolutely full of holes

"We would normally expect a points deduction"

"Its not the fans fault"

There are at least 6 or 7 references to nonsensical "get outs"

Well, its seems the FA thinks the fans of the other relegation clubs are at fault then....

[InterRovers]

I'm no expert, but I imagine Whelan has engaged some experts.

They will know more than I do about how Milan got back into the Champs League and had their domestic points deduction slashed (not to mention the other cheating Italian clubs).

It was getting close to the beginning of the season and the Italian clubs were threatening to go to the fourth level of the courts which would have taken months to sort out. Pressure from UEFA and FIFA to get a resolution gave the clubs leverage even if they didn't have a leg to stand on.

[gumboots]

THanks Gumboots, i now sort of understand!

So what I don't understand is why Mascherano and Tevez are still playing post judgement. Are they now owned by their respective clubs?

When liverpool signed Mascherano they sorted out the paperwork so he's all above board now. West Ham were told to get it sorted before Tevez could play in the Wigan game. According to some of the press there are doubts as to whether that happened or not. So it could be that Tevez is turning out for West Ham and the paperwork is still not straight, in which case, I suppose there could be grounds for Wigan's complaints if for no-one else's.

[Eddie]

Here's what I don't really get and I don't think can be explained by anything apart from the fact that the Premier League bottled it: if they weren't going to deduct the points West Ham gained in games in which they fielded the players and instead chose to go with a fine, then surely the fine should have been the amount of money gained from the games in which the players played. In other words, they should have waited until the end of the season, seen West Ham's final league position and then seen how much money they gained as a result of the points, which would could possibly amount to the new TV income, prize money, etc... Hopefully they'll just go down so this won't have to drag on forever, but if they do stay up I hope that a case is brought against them.

[Fife Rover]

It was getting close to the beginning of the season and the Italian clubs were threatening to go to the fourth level of the courts which would have taken months to sort out. Pressure from UEFA and FIFA to get a resolution gave the clubs leverage even if they didn't have a leg to stand on.

In other words, once again big money overrides any considerations of right or wrong, moral values etc. And they wonder why decent honest people are sickened to the pit of their stomachs with the whole dirty, cheating, mafia-like business that is "top class football" today.

[gumboots]

Interestingly even SAF thinks the other clubs have a point. Middlesbrough aren't likely to get relegated but they seem to be backing the others. Seems to me that the Prem has got itself into a whole huge mess and everything that happens now just seems to make it worse. It's awful but I think we all have to swallow our pride and be Bolton fans tomorrow and Man U fans next week and hope that these teams can do what should have been done a long time ago - relegate West Ham.