[Archived] Usa Football..what Do You Think?

[RoversFanUSA]

Well im hoping that this topic hasnt been brought up before. First off I know that the US hasnt been at the football game (serouilsy anyways) as long as many of the great football nations(England, Brazil, Italy). But I was wondering what your guys and gals thoughts were on the state of US football.

My questions to you all (besides the one above) are we producing the kind of talent that can take us to a world cup victory and how is the US viewed as a football "power". Also what of all the postions does the US seem to produse the better players of? Keeper (my man Brad )? Defence,mid, forwards?

I think last I read that were ranked 8th in the FIFA world standings but I would like to get your opuion on the matter. Also I was wacthing the USA-China INT friendly and one of the telecasters said and I quote " Well it seems that we (the USA) seem to produce some very quality keepers. It seems to be the only position we cant seem to screw up". Now of course I cant disagree with him because of Big Brad but I did feel a little jaded seeing as we do have IMO some really good players example: Fulham, Sheff Utd, Watford, Man City. All teams with players other than keepers that play for the US.

Am i wrong to think that everyone but our keepers suck? What do you guys think?

[Cocker]

Am i wrong to think that everyone but our keepers suck? What do you guys think?

To be fair I have never watched a MLS game so can't really comment on the players there however, Brian McBride dosnt seem to be doing to bad over here and we wanted him at one stage.

Anyway, what about this Freddy Adu bloke

[bobsterbrfc]

Arguably the standard of the U.S domestic league is someway behind that of the major European leagues, buton the international front, the U.S is possibly in a group with, Japan, and the African nations in terms of presence and a gradually improving pedigree. Mustn't forgot, the Admiral was discovered in the Good Ol' US of A!

[Eddie]

Not yet a football power and quite a long way off being one, but you have everything required to in order to become one of the leading footballing nations. I think the current crop of players are generally over-rated by American supporters, but things are certainly progressing and I would think that in a couple of decades time you'll be a very good team. The world rankings mean practically nothing. The way that the points are awarded basically guarantees that a side from each of the confederations will feature relatively highly and I don't think the current system will ever provide a true gauge of how sides compare.

[doctorryan]

I think the current crop of players are generally over-rated by American supporters,...........

I agree. There haven't been that many that have really excited me over the years, including most of those in the Prem.

[Presty On Tour]

the commentry is class in the states, soccer am luv it too with boston

[Billy Castell]

US fans do become a bit fanatical about the prowess of their players. For example, I used to go on bigsoccer.com, a US led site a few years ago and I tell you, Freddy Adu was going to cure world hunger and AIDS according to some. Apparently he was going to be as great as Pele and Maradona despite only being 15 years old, and that I was, to quote Bill Hicks, a fool or a Communist to suggest that it is too early to hype him up so much, and that it may not work out. Friedel was a hero on that site though, and rightly so.

As for the MLS, whilst I do worry that it will fall into the same trap as the NASL with all these old farts on a last payday, I would say that looks like it might grow into a respected league of a similar standing as the J-League, whilst the US national team are considered quite good.

[BRFC4EVA]

I agree. There haven't been that many that have really excited me over the years, including most of those in the Prem.

In my opinion, American players are similar in a way to English players. There isnt that individual flair of a Kaka/Ronaldinho player, just a collection of good, honest pro's who work together well. That has been the backbone of the American team in the last 2 world cups, organisation, hard work and a team which does the basics well.

I think the U.S team is pretty strong and can only get better. Its the most popular sport in the country in terms of playing at under 18 level, and with a population of 300 million, decent players cannot be helped to be churned out. My main concern is with the MLS. Not nessecarily with the quality of the competition, but with the viewing figures for it. When i mentioned before that soccer is amazingly popular playing wise, viewing wise it is behind baseball, am footie, hockey, probably several others. I spent 6 months over there recently. You have this situation where there are those who like playing the sport, but dont really want to watch it, and others who are mad enough to wanna watch soccer, but watch the premiership instead. Not just the big teams, i saw Bolton, Everton, blackburn etc fans out there

With regards to keeping, most of America's sport revolves around hand to eye co-ordination - perfect enviorment for budding keepers!

[Hypo-Luxa]

Most soccerheads over here over-inflate (I'm guilty of this to an extent as well) the players produced over here because of an intense inferiority complex. It's hard to be thought of as an inferior product, but it is what it is. There've only been a handful of players who I was excited about (Onyewu, Dempsey, Friedel(of course!), Timmy Howard, Eddie Johnson, McBride) and a few young guys (Feilhaber, Bradley, Altidore and Bornstein). But saying that I had high hopes for Beasley, Reyna and Donovan who've all underwhelmed on the big stage of the Premiership.

It's great to see successes in England, Germany and Holland, but the fact remains that the majoprity of US soccer products aren't near the quality of the powerhouses of Europe and South America. I've been spoiled by the foreign leagues and therefore cannot really watch MLS games even though a team is in my backyard. It has it's merits and all, but when there's the Prem, you really cannot watch anything else. I know that's a bit snooty, but I just can';t get around it no matter how hard I try...

The standard is improving to be sure even without MLS's savior Beckham. I think the major stumbling block that MLS has is MLS itself. The way they treat their own players as pieces of property instead of leaving it to the teams to decide and all of the crazy allotments and player restrictions set upon the teams it doesn't lend to a very fluid environment for team owners or fans. Just picture Gamst being traded to Wigan for three Youth International player allotments...It just loses any semblance of a league and more of a real estate game.

Then you have the obvious catering to the Euro game by naming the teams after Euro teams like Real Salt Lake, FC Dallas, Houston Dynamo were to be called Houston 1868 or sommat and FC Dallas nicknamed the hoops a la Celtic. Then holding teams for ransom just to be able to talk to the teams about players. The old adage of cutting off the nose to spite the face comes to mind...

I don't know, maybe it's just me...

[doctorryan]

No, you're spot-on Hypo. There's only 1 NBA, 1 NHL, 1 NFL & most importantly (much to the chagrin of Series A & La Liga) 1 FAPL. Americans will not invest time and/or $ in things that are second rate. That's why those who do follow the sport on a professional level almost universally worry about their Prem clubs and see the MLS as nothing more than an occasional curiosity. The Prem being in England & not someplace near where Americans can participate (support, travel to matches, etc..) is the single biggest reason that Association Football will never be more than a niche sport here.

[philipl]

I am finding this thread a fascinating read.

For what it is worth, I think everybody understands that given the right combination of circumstances (and David Beckham miscalculating his career trajectory is one of them), MLS could become a force to be reckoned with.

The US national team needs a lot more good talent coming through than seems to be the case from what notice I have given it. However, it is surely just a matter of time before the USA can muster a squad of 24 EPL-quality players?

[speeeeeeedie]

The USA needs a league to let these players start here and have more options to play here and not rely on going overseas to play, until they reach the . If the entire team depended on stories like Jay Demerit, our national team would revert to its circa 1980 pathetic status quickly as players would lose that link from the college/ODP/U-21 to the professional level. Once the MLS gets itself established financially (say 5-10 more years)

I'll move this quote into the USA thread.

Football in the USA is weird. Kids play it in droves, but most give up at 14. The MLS is gaining a decent niche where it will likely stay and never breakthrough to the top. Fox Soccer and ESPN show games and as long as that keeps going the money will come in and the league will prosper - relatively speaking. The US has to develop the game on 2 levels; commercially and talent wise, and you can argue that America's big problem with developing the game is the feeder set up they have, or don't as the case really is. There are plenty of good players; 300 million people see to that, but there is no concrete youth system.

The NFL (American football) has schools all over the country with well paid coaches and top notch facilities groomed to feed players into a university system that is very similar to a pro set up, then the top move on after that. Basketball is the same way with the added extra of a massive club set up. Baseball also has the school-uni-pro route but also has the "Minor Leagues" whereby youngsters are picked up at 18 by a big team (Yankees etc.) and farmed out to one of the club's lower leaage teams. If they are good enough they move up. Football does not have this. The schools system is shambolic, the club system is all politics and money, the university system gets the good players but they don't train for long enough or have enough good coaches around to develop players, and after that there are not enough teams to sustain a healthy level of competition. There is a semi pro team where I live and half the players are from overseas. How do you develop talent when your youngsters can't get a game because some tin pot has been or never was fancies a game in the sun?

As long as Rovers are in the Premier League and the TV coverage is as good as it is now, I will pay very little attention to the MLS as it is a poor man's version of the game.

[USRoverME]

With direct respect to the USA NT, It was hit directly on the head before, the team is blue-collar squad built around an adequate defence, but none of the attacking flair needed to be a true competitive squad for a World Cup victory. Even the young guns coming up are more defensive midfield types rather than attackers. The fact that Wolfe constantly gets NT run outs is case closed on our lack of attacking options.

The developmental problems have also been well described earlier.

The MLS is a key cog in the growth of the sport in the states, but one that has to be treated carefully. The "one entity" league, although annoying as hell from a transfer perspective, was vital for the MLS' survival and ability to NOT go the route of the NASL. The Designated player and other recent developments signal the blossoming of some independence, but that will not be given lightly, or quickly, for fear of an NASL collapse.

I heard a great interview with Alexi Lalas, the Galaxy GM, just after the Becks signing, and actually had a pointed question I asked about the MLS financial structure answered with only a relatively small dodge. When even the most financially sound market realizes that financially, the NASL model was a disgrace and can never be repeated, and would do anything to have the MLS thrive, its a good sign. But the last 11 years of debts the MLS incurred are proof positive of the fact that this sport needs careful tending to make sure we keep a pro-league viable in the American Market. I wish that meant paying fair wages for the "lunchpail" players which are the majority of the MLS clubs, but until the league can pay for itself, they are doing the responsible thing.

In 20-30 years, these guys will be int he same boat as the early NFL players now getting old and suffering from horrible brain and spine injuries without the $$ and benefits and pensions that the current players make/have to pay the bills. Hopefully smart management will mean we can treat them well not only now but in 20-30 years.

[Rovermatt]

In my view the US has some good players but clearly the national team (while clearly very fit and hungry) doesn't have the skill, power or depth of most European and South American nations.

The struggles will continue so long as the greatest sport in the world continues to be shunned by a country that places adverts in the middle of its sporting events.

[AndyC]

I'll move this quote into the USA thread.

Football in the USA is weird. Kids play it in droves, but most give up at 14. The MLS is gaining a decent niche where it will likely stay and never breakthrough to the top. Fox Soccer and ESPN show games and as long as that keeps going the money will come in and the league will prosper - relatively speaking. The US has to develop the game on 2 levels; commercially and talent wise, and you can argue that America's big problem with developing the game is the feeder set up they have, or don't as the case really is. There are plenty of good players; 300 million people see to that, but there is no concrete youth system.

The NFL (American football) has schools all over the country with well paid coaches and top notch facilities groomed to feed players into a university system that is very similar to a pro set up, then the top move on after that. Basketball is the same way with the added extra of a massive club set up. Baseball also has the school-uni-pro route but also has the "Minor Leagues" whereby youngsters are picked up at 18 by a big team (Yankees etc.) and farmed out to one of the club's lower leaage teams. If they are good enough they move up. Football does not have this. The schools system is shambolic, the club system is all politics and money, the university system gets the good players but they don't train for long enough or have enough good coaches around to develop players, and after that there are not enough teams to sustain a healthy level of competition. There is a semi pro team where I live and half the players are from overseas. How do you develop talent when your youngsters can't get a game because some tin pot has been or never was fancies a game in the sun?

As long as Rovers are in the Premier League and the TV coverage is as good as it is now, I will pay very little attention to the MLS as it is a poor man's version of the game.

that's the reason why beckham, could well be the catalyst that the MLS is hoping for. For the first time - the money obsessed kids & nation can see a lucrative career can be achieved by playing football.

[blue phil]

The struggles will continue so long as the greatest sport in the world continues to be shunned by a country that places adverts in the middle of its sporting events.

We're as bad for that as the Yanks . Some of the new revolving neon ads around the ground don't half get in the way of the game on the field . We even get ads on the big screen during the match at Ewood ....

[RoversFanUSA]

that's the reason why beckham, could well be the catalyst that the MLS is hoping for. For the first time - the money obsessed kids & nation can see a lucrative career can be achieved by playing football.

I have to agree. I have played at the AYSO (which is where most kids play till there 14 and give up) and club levels and even played for a gold cup team for the U-18 level. I do know that a lot of the kids playing are rich kids with all kinds of money that can afford to pay for the now outragis amounts of money the club teams require or pooor kids that cant afford to pay so they turn to constrution or drugs as a way of life. (sad really) I do have to say that a big problum with the club system (club being the better of the set ups for youngsters) is that after club unless you can make it into collage your never gonna really get the chance to play in the pros. There is no youth system to breed and devlop young players and it makes me sad. There was a coment up top somewhere that most of our sports revolve around hand-eye corranation which helps breed great keepers was to me very funny and true now that i think of it.

Over all i have to say that the caliber of players being produced in the US and being played in the MLS is some what sad compared to other leagues ive watched. The NT to me is mostly a crop of older players that have had the over seas training and experiance of the prem, gremany and other bigger and better leages to "grow" in. In a way i have to compare the MLS to the aussie huyndai prem leauge or even the J leauge in Japan. Ok to watch, only the when Rovers arent playing .

[Eddie]

I am finding this thread a fascinating read.

For what it is worth, I think everybody understands that given the right combination of circumstances (and David Beckham miscalculating his career trajectory is one of them), MLS could become a force to be reckoned with.

The US national team needs a lot more good talent coming through than seems to be the case from what notice I have given it. However, it is surely just a matter of time before the USA can muster a squad of 24 EPL-quality players?

I don't think the MLS will ever become a force to be reckoned with. I certainly think that the USA national team can become very good, but the league doesn't stand much of a chance.

[neekoy]

The US national team should develop some world class players (but so should China) but you guy seem to get in the same trap as us in OZ, we have the highest youth involvement in our game yet they hit 16 and get snatched away by our other three footballing codes. I can't see them winning a WC before the more developed organisations in Africa or Asia.

You guys are like us (but with a lot more dollars to throw around) with the horse before the cart, do you spend what you can to develop and keep footballing talent in your domestic leagues at the risk of losing interest now until those players come through or do you spend, spend and spend on Beckham's?

The US either needs to realise 'the dream' and have all these current foreign owners in the PL invest the billion in the MLS or except that the MLS is always going to be second rate relying on young exports to keep US involvement in the Euro leagues

[jim mk2]

The US national team should develop some world class players (but so should China) but you guy seem to get in the same trap as us in OZ, we have the highest youth involvement in our game yet they hit 16 and get snatched away by our other three footballing codes. I can't see them winning a WC before the more developed organisations in Africa or Asia.

You guys are like us (but with a lot more dollars to throw around) with the horse before the cart, do you spend what you can to develop and keep footballing talent in your domestic leagues at the risk of losing interest now until those players come through or do you spend, spend and spend on Beckham's?

The US either needs to realise 'the dream' and have all these current foreign owners in the PL invest the billion in the MLS or except that the MLS is always going to be second rate relying on young exports to keep US involvement in the Euro leagues

I saw quite a few North American Soccer League (NASL) games on trips to the US in the late 1970s/early 80s and one reason cited for that league's demise was that too much money was spent on star names (Beckenbauer, Pele, Best etc) and not enough on grassroots "soccer".

Funny watching football in a US crowd - they cheered loudest in all the wrong places (such as when the goalkeeper launched a long kick downfield).

Football will never be as popular as the NFL, NBL and baseball in the US bceuase it is perceived (particularly by the redneck states) as being a non-American game played by foreigners. Plus, the US get beaten at it, which they don't like.

[doctorryan]

Football will never be as popular as the NFL, NBL and baseball in the US becuase it is perceived (particularly by the redneck states) as being a non-American game played by foreigners. Plus, the US get beaten at it, which they don't like.

It will never be popular because Americans only want to support the "top league" in any sport.

Best basketball: NBA - & it's right here for them to be a part of, so they support it

Best ice hockey: NHL - the same

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

Americans want to be able to actually go to the matches so that they can cheer and yell at refs & coaches just like anybody else, because otherwise they don't feel like they're involved. It takes a lot of extra effort & money to be "involved" in the Prem if you're here in the US.

The MLS is not (and never will be of course) the "top league" & the one that is; is too far away for anybody but the most dedicated supporters and the wealthy. Consequently; both the league and sport will never be big (even when we win a World Cup), but they should survive. It'll be like a thermometer. Interest will go up and down and up and down depending on the circumstances, but it will never stay high.

[USRoverME]

Have to agree. The MLS will never be big on the international stage, unless there's a radical shift in the USA's attitude toward the sport. There's just not enough of a potential crowd for adertisers to toss the largess of the American consumer adertising dollars to the sport. If Beckham can't create that shift, it isn't ever going to happen.

[Billy Castell]

Would changing demographics help US football? I hear there are more Mexicans and other people from Latin America than ever before, and they all like football? So if the US develops a latino heritage, would football start to make inroads into US mainstream culture?

[awhom111]

This topic was enough to stop me from just lurking on the boards and make me actually join and post. I'll address some of the points raised so far from the perspective of an American who loves all sports and does not prefer one.

The national team right now is comparable to the good ones of Africa and Asia as a previous poster stated. The team should challenge for World Cup quarterfinals every eight years and struggle in the other World Cups, but should qualify every single time. I am interested in seeing what the new coach Bob Bradley will be able to do. The problem with the national team is that its performance is not really scrutinized and nobody cares if the team isn't living up to its potential. Sports in the United States are not very strongly controlled by the government or accountable to the citizens as the USOC and US Soccer are completely privately sponsored.

The problem with youth development in America is really complicated. Football youth development as it is done in Europe and the rest of the world is at complete odds with American sports ideals, mainly Amateurism and Multi-Sports starring. Amateur status is very important in American sports and that means that professional organizations are not allowed to have any contact with amateur athletes. Managers are fined heavily just for being seen in the general company of a still amateur player, even if is known that the player will soon become professional. In American anyone under 18 turning professional (Adu) is frowned upon very strongly. Americans do not stay in soccer because most athletes play multiple sports throughout their childhoods and must choose one eventually. I believe that there are only 12 scholarships available at the university level for soccer, compared to one per athlete in both American football and basketball. Which sport do you think that they choose? Baseball is having the same youth recruitment problems because they do not have enough available scholarships. The problem with university soccer is that it impedes player development simply because the athletes are also full-time students and have limited training time. American youth will not succeed in International football until there is enough guaranteed money available to them in football either at home or abroad. They would not be willing to sign the standard youth contract as youth in England may be, because they would be giving up the opportunity to have part of their education subsidized to give them a backup career choice. The other problem, as mentioned previously, is that most US footballers are from upper class families, which don't usually provide world class athletes in any sports, including American sports.

The MLS is very complicated. I think that it is still in an identity crisis. I agree that American fans will not support a second or lower tier league unless there is something attractive in the product. The style and quality of the MLS is very interesting. After viewing some of the early games after watching European football over the past season I can definitely see the basketball and ice hockey influence on American tactics. American teams only know how to create chances out of the counter-attack and really enjoy attacking through the center instead of bringing it up a wing and crossing. This is because in basketball and ice hockey, the opposition's defense is most weakened when it has not had time to set. American teams hate holding up the ball and letting the defense get back. The MLS can be more successful in the future if it gets better players earlier. The scary thing is how much money is available in the American game even without strong support. The MLS will also improve with more international support.

The MLS also interests me because of its mixture of American sports practices and international club football policies. It is interesting because I think that club football as played elsewhere intrigues Americans, but is so different from the ideals and goals of the American system that it does not hold their interest. I will just tick off some major differences and explain the ideas behind them. Drafts are necessary because clubs don't develop players, they come developed by universities at aged 22, so there is no reason why any club should have preference to sign an individual. Trades and not money transfers are important because under American ownership structures, owners could theoretically pocket the money and not reinvest it. Playoffs are the residual effect of the first days of sports in which there were rival leagues. Championships would unify the leagues and determine an overall superior team. This would be like if after ten years of the Champions League, two leagues decided to merge. This happened in American football and baseball and the playoff structure remained well after the mergers. Unless some of these basic ideas became more of a part of club soccer I think many Americans would find the sport "unfair" and rather bizarre. I think it is interesting because while sports were all relatively similar around 1900, over time the American sports have adopted many new rules and undergone many changes while in football only the tactics have evolved significantly in the last 100 years. I think that this lack of change has led to a product that is relatively foreign to the American sports fan who sees the similarities in all of the American sports. I think American interest in football will continue to ebb and flow in line with the World Cup and any American success in it until the MLS is stronger OR until one of the European leagues (EPL?) becomes clearly superior to ALL of the others.

[jkritchey]

As a season ticket supporter of DC United, I checked into this thread thinking I would have to defend MLS or US footie in general from the ignorant slobs.

Sadly, I have little to argue with in this thread. Some excellent points, reasoned and fair, throughout.

As was alluded to in another post, look for MLS and then the USMNT to start to reflect the Central and South American influence more and more. Less hoofing it forward, less route one ball, less huff and puff. More possession oriented, with fewer wild shots.

While the MLS past tended to feature mostly products of the University system, playing for cheap, mixed with a few expensive foreign stars, we are starting to see mid level foreign players (Brazil and Argentina) still in the prime of their years find MLS a decent lifestyle.